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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 5, 2018 15:53:41 GMT
In some ways the 436 was an improvement as all buses ran from Lewisham to Paddington whereas the 36 evening and Sundays only went to Victoria and Monday to Friday only half went beyond Victoria to Paddington.
The 453 on the other hand allowed the freq to be dropped beyond Deptford to Woolwich and Plumstead.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 5, 2018 17:35:39 GMT
I wonder whether that was because bendy buses were being introduced simultaneously on new routes 436 and 453, these being the first examples in London service after the Red Arrow routes, so it might have been easier to 'sell' these as new routes with new buses. In any case, the 436 was really just a short-working 36, but the 36 had to get cut back from Lewisham to New Cross so that this didn't quite happen in practice. I still think it a nonsense that the 36 doesn't terminate in Lewisham (or Catford, even), especially since the 436 got diverted after Vauxhall. Still, that's another can of worms! The 436 was never meant to be a short-working 36. The 36 had already been running in two overlapping sections for many years. All that happened in 2003 was that one section was renumbered 436; there was no change to the service pattern (except during early am / late evenings when there had previously been some through journeys).
It's the diversion of the 436 to Battersea Park that was the really significant change on this corridor. I can't agree with you that all that happened in 2003 was the renumbering of a section. Unlike the 53/453 the 36 had been, and remained for a while, Routemaster operated. If it had been already opo operated, like the 53, then I don't think the 436 number would ever have been created, overlapping sections could have continued and through journeys could have continued at offpeak times. It was a way of getting some crew operation removed without going the whole hog, thus appeasing the unions, while at the same time introducing the great hope of the time, the bendybus. The latter, of course, became very popular with a segment of the population who would shun a 36, also going where they wanted, in order to marvel at the articulation and practice their 100 yard sprints on site of a uniform! |
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Post by redexpress on Aug 5, 2018 17:54:51 GMT
The 436 was never meant to be a short-working 36. The 36 had already been running in two overlapping sections for many years. All that happened in 2003 was that one section was renumbered 436; there was no change to the service pattern (except during early am / late evenings when there had previously been some through journeys).
It's the diversion of the 436 to Battersea Park that was the really significant change on this corridor. I can't agree with you that all that happened in 2003 was the renumbering of a section. Unlike the 53/453 the 36 had been, and remained for a while, Routemaster operated. If it had been already opo operated, like the 53, then I don't think the 436 number would ever have been created, overlapping sections could have continued and through journeys could have continued at offpeak times. It was a way of getting some crew operation removed without going the whole hog, thus appeasing the unions, while at the same time introducing the great hope of the time, the bendybus. The latter, of course, became very popular with a segment of the population who would shun a 36, also going where they wanted, in order to marvel at the articulation and practice their 100 yard sprints on site of a uniform! Well yes there was a change of vehicle type, but I was focusing more on the service pattern. Having now had a look at old timetables I see there was only a through service on Saturdays. On Mon-Fri there were very limited through journeys, and none on Sundays (except early am & late evenings). So really, except on Saturdays, the split didn't change much (excluding vehicle type).
Even if there had been no change to vehicle types (or removal of OPO) there is no way that the 36 would have continued with overlapping sections. TfL were on a mission to standardise the network as much as possible. Note that the 2 - which also ran in overlapping sections - had its southern section renumbered 432 at the same time, even though the route was already OPO and no bendies or RMs were involved.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 5, 2018 17:59:27 GMT
And a few months later the 253 split aswell followed by the 207 in 2005 (thou half did get Bendies, in the opposite way to the 36 with the existing route getting then and the new 427 route getting the cast off DDs) plus the 208 was awarded the same year with an end to sectional operation.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 5, 2018 18:06:51 GMT
I can't agree with you that all that happened in 2003 was the renumbering of a section. Unlike the 53/453 the 36 had been, and remained for a while, Routemaster operated. If it had been already opo operated, like the 53, then I don't think the 436 number would ever have been created, overlapping sections could have continued and through journeys could have continued at offpeak times. It was a way of getting some crew operation removed without going the whole hog, thus appeasing the unions, while at the same time introducing the great hope of the time, the bendybus. The latter, of course, became very popular with a segment of the population who would shun a 36, also going where they wanted, in order to marvel at the articulation and practice their 100 yard sprints on site of a uniform! Well yes there was a change of vehicle type, but I was focusing more on the service pattern. Having now had a look at old timetables I see there was only a through service on Saturdays. On Mon-Fri there were very limited through journeys, and none on Sundays. So really, except on Saturdays, the split didn't change much (excluding vehicle type). Even if there had been no change to vehicle types (or removal of OPO) there is no way that the 36 would have continued with overlapping sections. TfL were on a mission to standardise the network as much as possible. Note that the 2 - which also ran in overlapping sections - had its southern section renumbered 432 at the same time, even though the route was already OPO and no bendies or RMs were involved.
Indeed, I was a regular user of the 36 before and after the 436 was introduced (I used to take the long way home via Vauxhall from Upper Norwood  ) and it certainly ran in overlapping sections with the Sundays being a through service. I believe this was similar on pretty much most overlapping routes at the time - it certainly was on the 2 which ran as Brixton to Crystal Palace & Norwood Garage to Marylebone but right through on Sundays and I'm sure it was the same on the 109 which was Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Purley to Brixton but right through on Sundays. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 53 was running in overlapping sections at the time and was cut back due to reliability - god help trying to run the 53 to Oxford Circus nowadays. The 453, for me, has been a success and does a good job of assisting the 53. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 5, 2018 18:09:16 GMT
And a few months later the 253 split aswell followed by the 207 in 2005 (thou half did get Bendies, in the opposite way to the 36 with the existing route getting then and the new 427 route getting the cast off DDs) plus the 208 was awarded the same year with an end to sectional operation. The 208 was different though where it's overlapping sections were simply merged into a through route with the 320 extended to Catford Bridge alongside to aid it. |
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Post by redexpress on Aug 5, 2018 18:25:28 GMT
Well yes there was a change of vehicle type, but I was focusing more on the service pattern. Having now had a look at old timetables I see there was only a through service on Saturdays. On Mon-Fri there were very limited through journeys, and none on Sundays. So really, except on Saturdays, the split didn't change much (excluding vehicle type). Even if there had been no change to vehicle types (or removal of OPO) there is no way that the 36 would have continued with overlapping sections. TfL were on a mission to standardise the network as much as possible. Note that the 2 - which also ran in overlapping sections - had its southern section renumbered 432 at the same time, even though the route was already OPO and no bendies or RMs were involved.
Indeed, I was a regular user of the 36 before and after the 436 was introduced (I used to take the long way home via Vauxhall from Upper Norwood ) and it certainly ran in overlapping sections with the Sundays being a through service. I believe this was similar on pretty much most overlapping routes at the time - it certainly was on the 2 which ran as Brixton to Crystal Palace & Norwood Garage to Marylebone but right through on Sundays and I'm sure it was the same on the 109 which was Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Purley to Brixton but right through on Sundays. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 53 was running in overlapping sections at the time and was cut back due to reliability - god help trying to run the 53 to Oxford Circus nowadays. The 453, for me, has been a success and does a good job of assisting the 53. That's right, 53 wasn't in sections - the only non-standard aspect was extra short workings between Elephant and New Cross in the peaks, which ceased when the 453 was introduced.
Oddly the 36 only had a through service throughout the day on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. On Sundays the sections were Lew - Vic and NX - QP (with a through service early am and late evenings). On Saturdays half the service ran Lew - QP and half ran Lew - Vic.
The 2 and 109 did run a through service on Sundays as you say.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 5, 2018 19:00:24 GMT
The 53 had half service Plumstead to Oxo with full daytime service Plumstead to TSQ. There were further additional shorts during the peaks between Woolwich and TSQ.
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Post by sid on Aug 5, 2018 20:35:47 GMT
In the 2003 round of central London changes the 453 differed for the others by using the higher numbered new route to replace the central section. All the others used the newer routes for the outer sections (333, 363, 432, 436, 476) I wonder whether that was because bendy buses were being introduced simultaneously on new routes 436 and 453, these being the first examples in London service after the Red Arrow routes, so it might have been easier to 'sell' these as new routes with new buses. In any case, the 436 was really just a short-working 36, but the 36 had to get cut back from Lewisham to New Cross so that this didn't quite happen in practice. I still think it a nonsense that the 36 doesn't terminate in Lewisham (or Catford, even), especially since the 436 got diverted after Vauxhall. Still, that's another can of worms! If the 36 went to Lewisham something else would have to go, I think the 21,136,321 and 436 are more than adequate over that section. What I think was a nonsense was curtailing the 53 at Whitehall in the first place, just short of so many West End attractions. |
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Post by busaholic on Aug 5, 2018 20:56:27 GMT
I wonder whether that was because bendy buses were being introduced simultaneously on new routes 436 and 453, these being the first examples in London service after the Red Arrow routes, so it might have been easier to 'sell' these as new routes with new buses. In any case, the 436 was really just a short-working 36, but the 36 had to get cut back from Lewisham to New Cross so that this didn't quite happen in practice. I still think it a nonsense that the 36 doesn't terminate in Lewisham (or Catford, even), especially since the 436 got diverted after Vauxhall. Still, that's another can of worms! If the 36 went to Lewisham something else would have to go, I think the 21,136,321 and 436 are more than adequate over that section. What I think was a nonsense was curtailing the 53 at Whitehall in the first place, just short of so many West End attractions. I was querying the very existence of the 436. I'd sooner see extra 36s: the Battersea Park bit? I'd need convincing there's a demand from Camberwell southward. I'm glad you mentioned the 21/321. Hornet's nest time again, but Lee Green and Eltham not only deserve a much better service from Lewisham but should imo have a direct link to much nearer central London than New Cross. Whether that is over the 21 and also the former tram route, later the 182 bus, via Old Kent Road and Borough, or not is a moot point. Perhaps a routeing via the 47 might invigorate that moribund route. See, I'm a Reshaper at heart.  |
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Post by redbus on Aug 5, 2018 22:32:08 GMT
Indeed, I was a regular user of the 36 before and after the 436 was introduced (I used to take the long way home via Vauxhall from Upper Norwood ) and it certainly ran in overlapping sections with the Sundays being a through service. I believe this was similar on pretty much most overlapping routes at the time - it certainly was on the 2 which ran as Brixton to Crystal Palace & Norwood Garage to Marylebone but right through on Sundays and I'm sure it was the same on the 109 which was Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Purley to Brixton but right through on Sundays. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the 53 was running in overlapping sections at the time and was cut back due to reliability - god help trying to run the 53 to Oxford Circus nowadays. The 453, for me, has been a success and does a good job of assisting the 53. That's right, 53 wasn't in sections - the only non-standard aspect was extra short workings between Elephant and New Cross in the peaks, which ceased when the 453 was introduced.
Oddly the 36 only had a through service throughout the day on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. On Sundays the sections were Lew - Vic and NX - QP (with a through service early am and late evenings). On Saturdays half the service ran Lew - QP and half ran Lew - Vic.
The 2 and 109 did run a through service on Sundays as you say.
The 2 is really the 2B, just a number change, and the 2B used to run through to Crystal Palace at all times until the OPO 2A was created to save money. When the 2 became OPO at all times, then once again it served Crystal Palace at all times until the 432 came along and took over the Norwood Crystal Palace section of route.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 5, 2018 22:57:41 GMT
Reverting to the 53/453 for the moment, in a way during the 1980s when NX alone got to work the 53 a precursor to the present split occurred during the peaks when, instead of Deptford, a good proportion of the route terminated at Blackheath Standard. I lived in Blackheath for virtually all the '80s and these certainly weren't just late runners, but a regular service. Woolwich too saw a lot of terminators, but how many were scheduled, as opposed to being regulated, I don't know.
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 5, 2018 23:29:43 GMT
I think I'll wait for a confirmed source, some posts from previous "company insiders" have proved to be a bit dubious. The question has to be asked, however, how well is the 53 used between County Hall and Whitehall? Until then, as you were I'm certain TfL are going to take this time to cut the 453 to Oxford Circus as well. There is next to no demand for it on Marylebone Road and the 113 & 139 do a good job as a replacement link if the 453 is to be withdrawn from Marylebone. Your point about there being next to no demand for the 453 along Marylebone Road is not true. Have you seen the 453 in the peaks between Marylebone and OC? Buses on the 453 can often be seen carrying healthy loads to and from Marylebone in the peaks, so on this basis the 453 is more than justified to remain in its current form, albeit with a slight frequency decrease outside the peaks. On the subject of the 53, cutting it back to Waterloo would be ridiculous, the route should remain terminating as close to the West End as possible to provide that link. While its current terminus at Whitehall is still inconveniently short of the major hotspot of Trafalgar Square, Waterloo is just a step too far. I would allow the 53 to terminate at Trafalgar Square to facilitate the connection to the West End. I would also reroute the 53 at the other end to bypass Plumstead Common in order to reduce its running time, the 54 can be extended to Plumstead via Plumstead Common as a replacement. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 6, 2018 0:08:54 GMT
That's right, 53 wasn't in sections - the only non-standard aspect was extra short workings between Elephant and New Cross in the peaks, which ceased when the 453 was introduced. Oddly the 36 only had a through service throughout the day on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. On Sundays the sections were Lew - Vic and NX - QP (with a through service early am and late evenings). On Saturdays half the service ran Lew - QP and half ran Lew - Vic. The 2 and 109 did run a through service on Sundays as you say.
The 2 is really the 2B, just a number change, and the 2B used to run through to Crystal Palace at all times until the OPO 2A was created to save money. When the 2 became OPO at all times, then once again it served Crystal Palace at all times until the 432 came along and took over the Norwood Crystal Palace section of route.
The 2 is indeed a renumbering of the 2B with the old 2 renumbered as the 322 - the 2 operated in overlapping sections on Mondays-Saturdays until 2003 when the Brixton-Crystal Palace journeys were renumbered 432 and the 2 diverted to Baker Street. Only on Sundays did the 2 run straight through between Crystal Palace & Marylebone - the overlapping sections were Brixton to Crystal Palace & Norwood Garage to Marylebone. |
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Post by cl54 on Aug 6, 2018 7:15:45 GMT
I'm certain TfL are going to take this time to cut the 453 to Oxford Circus as well. There is next to no demand for it on Marylebone Road and the 113 & 139 do a good job as a replacement link if the 453 is to be withdrawn from Marylebone. Your point about there being next to no demand for the 453 along Marylebone Road is not true. Have you seen the 453 in the peaks between Marylebone and OC? Buses on the 453 can often be seen carrying healthy loads to and from Marylebone in the peaks, so on this basis the 453 is more than justified to remain in its current form, albeit with a slight frequency decrease outside the peaks. On the subject of the 53, cutting it back to Waterloo would be ridiculous, the route should remain terminating as close to the West End as possible to provide that link. While its current terminus at Whitehall is still inconveniently short of the major hotspot of Trafalgar Square, Waterloo is just a step too far. I would allow the 53 to terminate at Trafalgar Square to facilitate the connection to the West End. I would also reroute the 53 at the other end to bypass Plumstead Common in order to reduce its running time, the 54 can be extended to Plumstead via Plumstead Common as a replacement. You obviously haven't seen the large number of people who get on the 53 between Plumstead Common and Woolwich and continue to New Cross and beyond. Buses are running at very frequent intervals - much more than the 54. The section between the Common and Plumstead Station is lightly used but there for crew facilities in the garage, |
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) and it certainly ran in overlapping sections with the Sundays being a through service. I believe this was similar on pretty much most overlapping routes at the time - it certainly was on the 2 which ran as Brixton to Crystal Palace & Norwood Garage to Marylebone but right through on Sundays and I'm sure it was the same on the 109 which was Trafalgar Square to Croydon & Purley to Brixton but right through on Sundays. 
