|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Apr 12, 2020 18:21:21 GMT
Then I think it was the 436 and 452 which saw improvements to the 452 and alight diversion to the 436 but ultermately a way of making a saving by axing the 436 between Vaxhall and Paddington. Have I ever seen an overloaded 36 since? Total truth: I haven't and the 36 has coped.
|
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Apr 12, 2020 18:32:44 GMT
I tend to agree that Sadiq isn't entirely to blame for the decline in bus travel. He was dealt a poor hand, and some of the policies of the previous Mayor have unintentionally or otherwise led to a decline in bus travel. That is not to say Sadiq is off the hook, far from it, but rather than reversing the policies of his predecessor he has largely continued with them. He has also had his own policies which have led to a decline in bus usage. There are also factors outside the Mayor's control or where the Mayor has only limited control. Going back to the question posed in the first post in this thread - double deck routes that are now single decker - if not mentioned already the 187 (now split into the 187 and 487) used to be double deck. The 46 also used to be double deck. The 187 was always a very strange route, really two routes masquerading as one with an overlap in the middle. It was possible to get a journey from Hampstead Heath all the way to South Harrow Station, and I did so once, but you needed both a timetable to hand and a plan B if your chosen bus was a staff cut! The old 139 Dagenham to Gants Hiill, even Ilford at times, was another oddity, taking the most indirect route possible, and another with a very poor offpeak frequency and the first to lose it if crews weren't available. Both were always double deck operated though. I remember when the 187 was operated by RTs and latterly RMs from ON (Alperton) and X (Middle Row as it was then) on Mondays to Fridays, but by RMs from SE (Stonebridge) on Saturdays. This was done in the interests of balancing duties at each garage, and the contrast for staff working the frenetic 18 during the week and then the empty 187 on Saturdays must have been quite something! SE Saturday meal reliefs were at the LT Canteen at Kensal Rise. The Saturday frequency was half-hourly, all journeys operating the full route from South Harrow to Hampstead Heath, and the only decent loadings were for shopping trips between Harlesden and Kensal Rise. I believe it was this section of the route that was responsible for the route retaining crew operation for so long (it didn't convert until September 1982), as larger driver-only vehicles were considered unsuitable for the back roads. |
|
|
|
Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Apr 12, 2020 18:47:34 GMT
Indeed, I even remember being shocked when route 22b, predecessor to route 242, was withdrawn between TCR and Piccadilly Circus. This severed the Chancery Lane - Piccadilly Circus link which does not even have a direct Underground link like Bank - Oxford Circus for example. It's a pity that TfL insufficiently priorise direct bus links in central London where there is no direct Underground link. The 38 almost does this, if you get off at near Grays inn Rd junction it is a stone throw from Chancery Lane. I was also referring to links such as St Pauls Stn to Piccadilly Circus, or even former route 22 links such as St Pauls - Knightsbridge |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Apr 12, 2020 19:24:04 GMT
The 187 was always a very strange route, really two routes masquerading as one with an overlap in the middle. It was possible to get a journey from Hampstead Heath all the way to South Harrow Station, and I did so once, but you needed both a timetable to hand and a plan B if your chosen bus was a staff cut! The old 139 Dagenham to Gants Hiill, even Ilford at times, was another oddity, taking the most indirect route possible, and another with a very poor offpeak frequency and the first to lose it if crews weren't available. Both were always double deck operated though. I remember when the 187 was operated by RTs and latterly RMs from ON (Alperton) and X (Middle Row as it was then) on Mondays to Fridays, but by RMs from SE (Stonebridge) on Saturdays. This was done in the interests of balancing duties at each garage, and the contrast for staff working the frenetic 18 during the week and then the empty 187 on Saturdays must have been quite something! SE Saturday meal reliefs were at the LT Canteen at Kensal Rise. The Saturday frequency was half-hourly, all journeys operating the full route from South Harrow to Hampstead Heath, and the only decent loadings were for shopping trips between Harlesden and Kensal Rise. I believe it was this section of the route that was responsible for the route retaining crew operation for so long (it didn't convert until September 1982), as larger driver-only vehicles were considered unsuitable for the back roads. The inability of the original X garage at Middle Row, North Kensington, to take opo buses, or anything longer than a standard RM, may well have been another factor. The 187 was the 'senior' driver's, pre-retirement route at X too. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Apr 12, 2020 19:34:38 GMT
Then I think it was the 436 and 452 which saw improvements to the 452 and alight diversion to the 436 but ultermately a way of making a saving by axing the 436 between Vaxhall and Paddington. Have I ever seen an overloaded 36 since? Total truth: I haven't and the 36 has coped. Possibly because TfL lost passengers to other forms of transport like cycling, Uber so can hardly call it great if that’s the case - still a poor change IMO |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Apr 12, 2020 19:36:24 GMT
I wouldn't entirely blame Sadiq for the decline of buses in London. Its been part his policies, Uber, roadworks and then many cycle schemes aimed at causing problems for buses where side roads have been closed and also bus lanes removed. I agree, in fact if it wasn't for his freeze on fares there would have been an even bigger decline in usage. I don’t believe anyone can know that for certain. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Apr 12, 2020 20:04:50 GMT
But TFL didnt pay the Uber fares for people, it was the public choice to start using it around 2013. It's a simple market choice. Give people a new product and some will take it up and use it.
As for cycling that was started back by Ken Livingstone and probably really gained by interest and use by 2013 as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 12, 2020 21:28:41 GMT
If Buses and Cyclists have higher priority than cars then you'd easily see a boost in patronage as people wouldn't want to sit in cars idling in traffic and I feel as if London hasn't made that priority so it might be harder now to implement it.
Hopefully whoever is next mayor can put buses and cyclists over other traffic (obviously with the exception of emergency services)
|
|
|
|
Post by redbus on Apr 12, 2020 22:14:25 GMT
If Buses and Cyclists have higher priority than cars then you'd easily see a boost in patronage as people wouldn't want to sit in cars idling in traffic and I feel as if London hasn't made that priority so it might be harder now to implement it. Hopefully whoever is next mayor can put buses and cyclists over other traffic (obviously with the exception of emergency services) I used to think the solution was bus priority and if people wanted to use cars, well they can sit in long jams. I now realise this is flawed thinking. There are all manner of reasons why vehicles are on the road, from supermarket trucks delivering food to people travelling to their local supermarket by car because they can't carry the parcels home (maybe no bus available), because they need to drive on business or because public transport makes the journey impractical. The list goes on, the one thing in common being that no one goes out for a drive for fun anymore (yes people used to do that!). A good road system is vital to our economy. Having said bus priority is vital, but we can't simply forget about other road users either. We desperately need to reduce bus journey times, but instead in the last years we have spent making bus journeys longer and less attractive. Longer journey times, frequency cuts, constant stopping while the service is regulated put passengers off, is someone really going to swap from car to bus for that? Do you really think the person who might swap from car to bus is worried whether the fare is £1.50 or £1.65? If they can afford to go by car the difference in fare is immaterial. Sure there are lots of existing passengers for whom the cheaper fare is important, but not those who we are trying to get to swap from car to bus. Indeed bus passengers have swapped from buses to private hire, but think what message about fares and journey times that gives. Bus passengers have also swapped from buses to cycling, and whatever the merits of cycling (or private hire), this leads to a revenue loss for TfL, fewer passengers so frequency cuts for all the remaining passengers and longer journey times. Remember the way our streets have been re-designed in recent years in favour of cyclists has made matters worse for buses and this re-design has also contributed to the loss of passengers. I am not saying there are easy answers to all this, but there is no easy way to improve matters for one group of road users without adversely impacting others. I do think that the road re-design in recent years could have been much better without any real adverse impact on buses and now we are paying the consequences, but that is another story. |
|
|
|
Post by redbus on Apr 12, 2020 22:53:36 GMT
The 187 was always a very strange route, really two routes masquerading as one with an overlap in the middle. It was possible to get a journey from Hampstead Heath all the way to South Harrow Station, and I did so once, but you needed both a timetable to hand and a plan B if your chosen bus was a staff cut! The old 139 Dagenham to Gants Hiill, even Ilford at times, was another oddity, taking the most indirect route possible, and another with a very poor offpeak frequency and the first to lose it if crews weren't available. Both were always double deck operated though. I remember when the 187 was operated by RTs and latterly RMs from ON (Alperton) and X (Middle Row as it was then) on Mondays to Fridays, but by RMs from SE (Stonebridge) on Saturdays. This was done in the interests of balancing duties at each garage, and the contrast for staff working the frenetic 18 during the week and then the empty 187 on Saturdays must have been quite something! SE Saturday meal reliefs were at the LT Canteen at Kensal Rise. The Saturday frequency was half-hourly, all journeys operating the full route from South Harrow to Hampstead Heath, and the only decent loadings were for shopping trips between Harlesden and Kensal Rise. I believe it was this section of the route that was responsible for the route retaining crew operation for so long (it didn't convert until September 1982), as larger driver-only vehicles were considered unsuitable for the back roads. As you say, you could travel the whole length of the route on Saturdays as well as specific journeys during the week. It had a strange Monday to Friday frequency with daytime 30 minute service Hampstead Heath - Harlesden and also a 30 minute service South Harrow - Kensal Rise, giving a 15 minute service in the combined section. However in peak hours it went to 40 minutes for each of the two sections, but with an additional 20 minute service between Harlesden and Kensal Rise, so providing a 10 minute service over that section. That meant that parts of the route were less frequent in the peaks than the evenings! I often tried, (yes the route was very trying!) to take the 187 bus back from school. There was a bus at 4:08 pm and I finished school at 4:00 pm, so if I was lucky I made this bus. If I missed the bus or it didn't turn up (only too common), I had a Plan 'B' which as you say was essential with this route! I believe you are absolutely right about Middle Row Garage (the old X, not today's X) only being able to take RMs. Part of the issue I think wasn't just the length of the bus but also the turning circle and front overhang when turning, which was much better on the Routemaster with the front wheels at the very front of the bus. |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Apr 13, 2020 12:16:26 GMT
I remember when the 187 was operated by RTs and latterly RMs from ON (Alperton) and X (Middle Row as it was then) on Mondays to Fridays, but by RMs from SE (Stonebridge) on Saturdays. This was done in the interests of balancing duties at each garage, and the contrast for staff working the frenetic 18 during the week and then the empty 187 on Saturdays must have been quite something! SE Saturday meal reliefs were at the LT Canteen at Kensal Rise. The Saturday frequency was half-hourly, all journeys operating the full route from South Harrow to Hampstead Heath, and the only decent loadings were for shopping trips between Harlesden and Kensal Rise. I believe it was this section of the route that was responsible for the route retaining crew operation for so long (it didn't convert until September 1982), as larger driver-only vehicles were considered unsuitable for the back roads. As you say, you could travel the whole length of the route on Saturdays as well as specific journeys during the week. It had a strange Monday to Friday frequency with daytime 30 minute service Hampstead Heath - Harlesden and also a 30 minute service South Harrow - Kensal Rise, giving a 15 minute service in the combined section. However in peak hours it went to 40 minutes for each of the two sections, but with an additional 20 minute service between Harlesden and Kensal Rise, so providing a 10 minute service over that section. That meant that parts of the route were less frequent in the peaks than the evenings! I often tried, (yes the route was very trying!) to take the 187 bus back from school. There was a bus at 4:08 pm and I finished school at 4:00 pm, so if I was lucky I made this bus. If I missed the bus or it didn't turn up (only too common), I had a Plan 'B' which as you say was essential with this route! I believe you are absolutely right about Middle Row Garage (the old X, not today's X) only being able to take RMs. Part of the issue I think wasn't just the length of the bus but also the turning circle and front overhang when turning, which was much better on the Routemaster with the front wheels at the very front of the bus. I don't think the old X could even accommodate the longer RML. I never got to visit the place even when I worked for L.T. Interesting to read your memories of trying to use the route! It was lucky for the extreme eastern end of the route when first the 268, then more pertinently the C11 came along. I was working for Camden Council by then having to visit people living in private rented flats and houses, using public transport, and Swiss Cottage to Belsize Park or Hampstead Heath was a journey I needed to make on occasion, but I don't recollect ever being able to use a 187! |
|
|
|
Post by M1104 on Apr 13, 2020 15:10:37 GMT
What's the earliest routes remembered as a child and what type buses were then used?
|
|
|
|
Post by TB123 on Apr 13, 2020 15:24:17 GMT
What's the earliest routes remembered as a child and what type buses were then used? 64, 109, 157, 250, 264, 289, 726 for me - Volvo Olympians on the 64 in blue and yellow colours, Arriva Ls on the 109 and 264, DLAs on the 250s, PDLs on the 289 and TGM B10BLEs on the 726! Those were the days. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Apr 13, 2020 15:38:01 GMT
M's on the 154 and 280 then LDPs on the 80
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 15:43:27 GMT
What's the earliest routes remembered as a child and what type buses were then used? I lived in the Mile End are in the early 80s so for me it was : Route 15 RMLs Route 277 Titans In 87 I moved to Waltham Abbey and was amazed by the blue DMS on Sampson routes. Then moved back to London and was more Titans in the 25. I really got interested in buses when Dockland Minibuses started was amazed at these tiny buses running at high frequency. Then later on was amazed when I discovered the X15 with RMCs. |
|
