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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 11:41:08 GMT
Anyone knowing the answers to these questions which I'm curious about?
1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since.
2. 24hour SD routes are around of course, such as 108, but are there any N prefixed SD routes. I'm sure there must be but I can't remember seeing one.
3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create!
Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 22, 2018 11:47:03 GMT
Anyone knowing the answers to these questions which I'm curious about? 1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since. 2. 24hour SD routes are around of course, such as 108, but are there any N prefixed SD routes. I'm sure there must be but I can't remember seeing one. 3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 For number 1 the 350 is a good recent example. It's remaining SD for now at least. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 22, 2018 12:32:40 GMT
80, 163, 164 and 355 wen SD in 1996 and 1992 and are still single deck. The N28/31 were probably the last SD N routes converting to DD in 2004.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2018 13:10:51 GMT
3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 Define feasible? Ensingbus run the X80 and I strongly suspect it's marginal at best. There have been previous, much longer, routes that have reached Lakeside and Romford from the South run by Arriva. Arriva canned them a fair few years ago. Similarly attempts to run to Lakeside from north of Romford have failed too. The big problem is that both Lakeside and Bluewater are mostly designed for car access. They are linked by reasonably fast roads even with the regular jams and accidents that cause monumental havoc. A bus service simply can't compete in those circumstances. Cars will win every time and I suspect the market for non car users from diffuse localities is so small that it's not worth bothering with. The main "success" stories into Lakeside and Bluewater are TfL 96 and 370 while commercially Ensign have the local Thurrock market sewn up barring the First 100. At Bluewater the money spinners are Fastrack and the 700 from Medway. Beyond that no one is much bothered. I keep expecting to hear that Ensignbus have canned the X80 because it's not a big money spinner and it is also a huge operational nightmare because of the impact of problems on the M25 / Dartford Crossing. Ensignbus go to extraordinary lengths at times to ensure last journeys run on the X80 - especially from the south. I suspect many other operators would not make the same effort. TfL have no money and no inclination to go on cross boundary adventures that would leech money. They'd also kill the X80, if they did launch a service such as you suggest, which might give rise to accusations from Ensignbus of anti competitive behaviour. I doubt TfL want the hassle nor do they want the complication of dealing with more local authorities in respect of trying to get support for such a bus service. It's clear to me that TfL are having to be "hard ball" when it comes to financial contributions on cross boundary services and, eventually, we will lose all TfL cross boundary services because (a) TfL won't have the money and (b) local authorities will not have the cash either. Local government is being forced towards bankruptcy by government policies and within 5 years all bus subsidies, other than for concessionary passes, will be scrapped. The government don't give a toss and the country will have far far bigger issues to worry about after next year than bus subsidies. |
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Post by jordzjohn123 on Sept 22, 2018 13:17:41 GMT
The 232 converted from DD to SD in 1999
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 13:41:34 GMT
Interesting replies, thanks.
Converting from DD to SD has not happened recently, I asked that question because I was wondering if it's cheaper to run SD's than DD's, potential perhaps to save money. Though I suspect it makes no difference, operationally speaking, but must be cheaper to buy.
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 22, 2018 15:43:53 GMT
Last SD conversion was the 312 I believe back in 2005 thou the 350/U5 kind of swapped contracts and buses last year.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Sept 22, 2018 16:13:06 GMT
Anyone knowing the answers to these questions which I'm curious about? 1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since. 2. 24hour SD routes are around of course, such as 108, but are there any N prefixed SD routes. I'm sure there must be but I can't remember seeing one. 3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 routes that were once DD that I can think of are: 165, 444 (when numbered 144A) and D6. I'm sure there's others |
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Post by localet44 on Sept 22, 2018 16:13:10 GMT
I have photos of SDs on the N11 in 2000 and 2002 and on the N29 in 2006
Localet
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Post by snoggle on Sept 22, 2018 16:19:19 GMT
Interesting replies, thanks. Converting from DD to SD has not happened recently, I asked that question because I was wondering if it's cheaper to run SD's than DD's, potential perhaps to save money. Though I suspect it makes no difference, operationally speaking, but must be cheaper to buy. Happy to be corrected but I thought a lot of the single deck conversions in the past were designed to a) allow use of small buses at higher frequencies but with lower driver wages - sometimes tied to privatisation of the old LBL companies. London United and Centrewest were proponents of this strategy but it was evident in all of the companies to differing extents. b) try to stimulate usage from scrapping older double deckers and bringing in more attractive buses. As bus designs developed a lot of this was about low floor buses being brought in. The Dennis Dart being the ubiquitous bus. This certainly happened with route 34 - old Metrobuses were taken off, new Darts run by Lea Valley were put on and ridership did go up quite markedly. Some of this was also related to better frequencies once reconstruction of the A406 came to an end. Further on, though, the introduction of double deckers and further increased frequencies led to a huge rise in demand. I also suspect changes to employment patterns was a big issue too. We are clearly long past the era where demand needed a lot of stimulus. Drivers wages are no longer differentiated hugely by vehicle type given the removal of the old style "cheapo" minibuses. TfL also seem to be reluctant to endorse a lot of new vehicle purchases if they can possibly avoid it. The only exceptions being forced by the Mayor's air quality initiatives. I think TfL prefer single deckers where they can be maintained as they are lighter and typically less heavy on fuel. We can see this with tender awards in recent years which have kept a number of busy routes with single deckers. Things like the 274's rather delayed conversion are rare exceptions as is the Crossrail related conversion of the 178 and 291. I suspect the latter two have only happened because GAL have spare deckers and don't need to buy new ones. At some point, though, TfL are going to face issues with the single deck fleet in London. There will be a collision between demands for better air quality and the ability of the market and operators to buy apppropriate zero emission buses at affordable prices. The supporting infrastructure costs are also an issue. I don't know how TfL are going to tackle that given the scale of the single deck fleet and range of vehicle sizes. |
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Post by danorak on Sept 22, 2018 17:12:03 GMT
1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since. The 126 would fit the bill, albeit the odd double deck has escaped a couple of times. Also the 286 (you could add the 124 although it has had restrictions added since it was a DD). |
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 22, 2018 18:01:12 GMT
3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 In a word, no. Absolutely no. Here in Bexley, we have little interest in travel to Lakeside when Bluewater is so much easier to get to. I’m rather more positive about the X80’s credentials than snoggle: the X80 seems to be doing well on my observations but a TfL service would kill it stone dead. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 22, 2018 18:01:30 GMT
Last SD conversion was the 312 I believe back in 2005 thou the 350/U5 kind of swapped contracts and buses last year. 95 converted to DML Marshalls from either VNW’s or VNL’s in either 2009 or 2010. The 132 also converted to DWL’s from VWL’s roughly 2008ish though was converted back to double deckers a few years ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 20:28:52 GMT
3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 In a word, no. Absolutely no. Here in Bexley, we have little interest in travel to Lakeside when Bluewater is so much easier to get to. I’m rather more positive about the X80’s credentials than snoggle: the X80 seems to be doing well on my observations but a TfL service would kill it stone dead. My proposal was not necessarily about linking Bexleyheath or indeed Dartford with Lakeside, but rather linking these two parts of London, Romford and Dartford/Bexleyheath. From there other continued journeys are open. It would save travelling into central London and out again. I live in Ilford but regularly travel to Bexleyheath to my barbers,( there's a great barbershop in Pickford Lane), it's so time consuming. What's really needed is a new bridge, Rainham to Erith would be ideal, though I've read somewhere that a Thamesmead to Barking bridge was mooted. I don't know the X80 , but if it's a stopping service then it shouldn't suffer from a new TFL non stopping route. |
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Post by sid on Sept 22, 2018 20:45:37 GMT
Anyone knowing the answers to these questions which I'm curious about? 1. Has a DD route ever been converted to SD, and remained SD ever since. 2. 24hour SD routes are around of course, such as 108, but are there any N prefixed SD routes. I'm sure there must be but I can't remember seeing one. 3. Could it be any way feasible in financial / economic terms for TFL to create a route linking N.E. and S.E. London using the Dartford Tunnel. I'm thinking of a route from Romford , non-stop to Lakeside, non-stop to West Thurrock, then through tunnel to Dartford, then serving all stops to Bexleyheath. What great possibilities that would create! Obviously not a high frequency route, perhaps hourly Mon-Sat 07.00-20.00 1 I don't know how far back you want to go but the 146 was RT/RM until OPO conversion and it's been single decker ever since as the route is unsuitable for larger double deckers. 2 Not that I can think of. 3 I have suggested a Bexleyheath to Lakeside service before. |
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