Routes 110, 419, 493, H22 and H37

[thelondonthing]

I wonder if TfL is delaying the publication of the consultation results until after the ongoing disruption between Richmond and Twickenham has passed.

In recent days, temporary signals have been managing traffic at the East Twickenham end of Richmond Road - but from tomorrow, 7 April, a section of the road will be completely closed to all traffic heading towards Twickenham as part of "major gas mains upgrade works" that are due to continue for six weeks until roughly 18/19 April May.

All road traffic heading towards Twickenham will be diverted through St Margarets and via the A316, with the exception of bus services, which will be diverted to St Margarets, then turn left onto Crown Road, and back on to line of route from Orleans Park. (Traffic in the other direction - from Twickenham to Richmond - will not be diverted.)

This seems likely to cause significant disruption to Richmond area services in the coming weeks, especially during peak times. With TfL and operators having to manage these temporary changes, and keep the public informed about what's happening, it seems like a very bad time to also be introducing further permanent changes to services that will impact passengers in these areas. Perhaps TfL has decided that the risk of confusion is too great to announce the changes in the midst of this chaos.

If that is the case, we might see the planned May implementation date being pushed back several weeks, as TfL would still need time to publicise the changes before they can come into effect.

[snoggle]

Apr 6, 2019 13:00:26 GMT thelondonthing said:

I wonder if TfL is delaying the publication of the consultation results until after the ongoing disruption between Richmond and Twickenham has passed.

In recent days, temporary signals have been managing traffic at the East Twickenham end of Richmond Road - but from tomorrow, 7 April, a section of the road will be completely closed to all traffic heading towards Twickenham as part of "major gas mains upgrade works" that are due to continue until roughly 18/19 April.

All road traffic heading towards Twickenham will be diverted through St Margarets and via the A316, with the exception of bus services, which will be diverted to St Margarets, then turn left onto Crown Road, and back on to line of route from Orleans Park. (Traffic in the other direction - from Twickenham to Richmond - will not be diverted.)

This seems likely to cause significant disruption to Richmond area services in the coming weeks, especially during peak times. With TfL and operators having to manage these temporary changes, and keep the public informed about what's happening, it seems like a very bad time to also be introducing further permanent changes to services that will impact passengers in these areas. Perhaps TfL has decided that the risk of confusion is too great to announce the changes in the midst of this chaos.

If that is the case, we might see the planned May implementation date being pushed back several weeks, as TfL would still need time to publicise the changes before they can come into effect.

I would add "operational performance" to your passenger confusion. There's little merit in making substantial changes to routes when road conditions / road works are going to be less than favourable. We all know new routes struggle in the early days but why compound the struggle by introducing them when roads that the buses would have to use are in chaos? It also makes the management task for operators unduly difficult as new schedules would not be reflective of the traffic conditions and there is always a learning curve for controllers with new / revised routes.

[snowman]

If implemented TfL expect annual savings of £ 1,525,000 per annum

www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/0499

[southlondonbus]

Apr 18, 2019 0:48:08 GMT snowman said:

If implemented TfL expect annual savings of £ 1,525,000 per annum

www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/0499

Can't really very sniffed at.

[rif153]

It would be hilarious if these changes are indefinitely postponed because of the closure of Hammersmith Bridge. The 110/419 merger is probably postponed, the H37 PVR cut is sadly inevitable but I would love some of AV's OTs to be kept for a little while before it occurs. The 493 cut despite being the most minor thing in the consultation cannot happen if the H22's stand isn't released. Long story shot, these changes are interlinked and so are probably dead for now

[southlondonbus]

The 110/419 could go ahead as terminate short as the 419 is. The 493 go ahead till the 419 vacates not the H22 as they both terminate at Manor Circus. Then 493 takes the place of the 419.

[rif153]

Apr 18, 2019 12:12:52 GMT southlondonbus said:

The 110/419 could go ahead as terminate short as the 419 is. The 493 go ahead till the 419 vacates not the H22 as they both terminate at Manor Circus. Then 493 takes the place of the 419.

Doh! Thanks for correcting my stupid mistake

[snowman]

Apr 18, 2019 9:06:51 GMT rif153 said:

It would be hilarious if these changes are indefinitely postponed because of the closure of Hammersmith Bridge. The 110/419 merger is probably postponed, the H37 PVR cut is sadly inevitable but I would love some of AV's OTs to be kept for a little while before it occurs. The 493 cut despite being the most minor thing in the consultation cannot happen if the H22's stand isn't released. Long story shot, these changes are interlinked and so are probably dead for now

Such is the (lack of) Quality at TfL these days, that TfL still have the Consultation on their website on last day of May 2019 with the words
“When would these changes start?
The proposed introduction date for these changes is May 2019.”

consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/bus-changes-richmond/

Can’t even be bothered to put a simple holding update statement on it, saying still being reviewed, or due to unplanned closure of Hammersmith Bridge further changes being considered, so not changing in May 2019

[southlondonbus]

Technically the 110/419 merger could still happen and become Hounslow to Barnes Pond till the Bridge is sorted.

[thelondonthing]

This consultation closed in January, and was due to be implemented in May - and with the mess surrounding Hammersmith Bridge, you might have believed the plans were dead in the water.

However, TfL has said in an email that "the closure of the Hammersmith Bridge has meant we are still reviewing our proposals for changes to buses in Richmond and Twickenham." It added: "We hope to be able to provide a fuller update in the next few weeks."

Any decisions to be made on Richmond area buses will no doubt depend on what's decided for the bridge, but we may yet see some changes being implemented from the consultation.

[ADH45258]

May 31, 2019 9:18:43 GMT southlondonbus said:

Technically the 110/419 merger could still happen and become Hounslow to Barnes Pond till the Bridge is sorted.

While that is possible, in the possible scenario of the bridge staying closed permanently, TFL may have more extensive plans to reshape the network around Barnes on a permanent basis, in which case the 419 could be more useful with different changes made.

With the current uncertainty, I think TFL should proceed with changes to the 493, H22 and H37 soon. Then reroute the 110 as planned via St Margarets, but terminating at Manor Circus. Then TFL have the option of later extending it onwards to Barnes or Hammersmith Bridge if this makes sense when more is known about the bridge situation.

[southlondonbus]

I don't think there's room at the bus station thou for the 493 if the 419 isn't withdrawn.

I do think TFL can't ignore Richmond thou and really do need to do something to reduce the over bussing from the town centre to Manor Circus as at the monent it can be grid lock outside the station and the air quality must be awful.

[snowman]

Jul 20, 2019 0:10:37 GMT ADH45258 said:

May 31, 2019 9:18:43 GMT southlondonbus said:

Technically the 110/419 merger could still happen and become Hounslow to Barnes Pond till the Bridge is sorted.

While that is possible, in the possible scenario of the bridge staying closed permanently, TFL may have more extensive plans to reshape the network around Barnes on a permanent basis, in which case the 419 could be more useful with different changes made.

With the current uncertainty, I think TFL should proceed with changes to the 493, H22 and H37 soon. Then reroute the 110 as planned via St Margarets, but terminating at Manor Circus. Then TFL have the option of later extending it onwards to Barnes or Hammersmith Bridge if this makes sense when more is known about the bridge situation.

It is fairly easy to alter things in Barnes area, effectively just make it part of the Hammersmith Bridge changes (which are having to be made as current arrangement is not 100% working)

The problem with the extended 110 is that traffic in Sheen, Mortlake area is now so heavy that anything running via there becomes unreliable. Not much can do about it, but exporting the unreliability to Whitton and Hounslow is not desirable. I understand your thoughts on only going to Manor Circus, but part of this scheme was to cut the overbussing Richmond- Manor Circus. So I would terminate at other end of Manor Road, where there is a little used bus stand (Sheen Queens Road, sometimes called Marshgate school, or using former pub name Black dog)

Not really any advantage of continuing towards Sheen and Mortlake as just duplicating the 337 for next mile or two. Especially as traffic (and bridge displaced traffic) is a crawl as soon as you get to South Circular.

[george]

Jul 20, 2019 6:40:10 GMT snowman said:

Jul 20, 2019 0:10:37 GMT ADH45258 said:

While that is possible, in the possible scenario of the bridge staying closed permanently, TFL may have more extensive plans to reshape the network around Barnes on a permanent basis, in which case the 419 could be more useful with different changes made.

With the current uncertainty, I think TFL should proceed with changes to the 493, H22 and H37 soon. Then reroute the 110 as planned via St Margarets, but terminating at Manor Circus. Then TFL have the option of later extending it onwards to Barnes or Hammersmith Bridge if this makes sense when more is known about the bridge situation.

It is fairly easy to alter things in Barnes area, effectively just make it part of the Hammersmith Bridge changes (which are having to be made as current arrangement is not 100% working)

The problem with the extended 110 is that traffic in Sheen, Mortlake area is now so heavy that anything running via there becomes unreliable. Not much can do about it, but exporting the unreliability to Whitton and Hounslow is not desirable. I understand your thoughts on only going to Manor Circus, but part of this scheme was to cut the overbussing Richmond- Manor Circus. So I would terminate at other end of Manor Road, where there is a little used bus stand (Sheen Queens Road, sometimes called Marshgate school, or using former pub name Black dog)

Not really any advantage of continuing towards Sheen and Mortlake as just duplicating the 337 for next mile or two. Especially as traffic (and bridge displaced traffic) is a crawl as soon as you get to South Circular.

The Stand at queens road is now used am awful lot, I don't think it would be a good idea to have a route terminate there permanently

[thelondonthing]

Jul 20, 2019 6:40:10 GMT snowman said:

Jul 20, 2019 0:10:37 GMT ADH45258 said:

While that is possible, in the possible scenario of the bridge staying closed permanently, TFL may have more extensive plans to reshape the network around Barnes on a permanent basis, in which case the 419 could be more useful with different changes made.

With the current uncertainty, I think TFL should proceed with changes to the 493, H22 and H37 soon. Then reroute the 110 as planned via St Margarets, but terminating at Manor Circus. Then TFL have the option of later extending it onwards to Barnes or Hammersmith Bridge if this makes sense when more is known about the bridge situation.

It is fairly easy to alter things in Barnes area, effectively just make it part of the Hammersmith Bridge changes (which are having to be made as current arrangement is not 100% working)

The problem with the extended 110 is that traffic in Sheen, Mortlake area is now so heavy that anything running via there becomes unreliable. Not much can do about it, but exporting the unreliability to Whitton and Hounslow is not desirable. I understand your thoughts on only going to Manor Circus, but part of this scheme was to cut the overbussing Richmond- Manor Circus. So I would terminate at other end of Manor Road, where there is a little used bus stand (Sheen Queens Road, sometimes called Marshgate school, or using former pub name Black dog)

Not really any advantage of continuing towards Sheen and Mortlake as just duplicating the 337 for next mile or two. Especially as traffic (and bridge displaced traffic) is a crawl as soon as you get to South Circular.

The former Black Horse stand probably isn't the best terminus for the 110 either. Traffic on Sheen Road between there and Richmond is truly horrifying during rush hour, and already adds to the difficulties of running a reliable service on the 33, 337 and 493 through the area.

Additionally, I'm not sure the stand is well suited to handling a regular service, as it's positioned unusually close (like, a metre away) to the front entrance of Marshgate primary school, which doesn't appear to be the ideal location for bus movements amid the hubbub of children and parents coming and going immediately next to and around any parked buses. As george noted, the stand does currently handle buses daily, but their visits are not frequent. Most afternoons, you'll see a 337 parked there before heading towards Clapham on a schools extra, and it's often used for short turns on the 33, 337 and 493 to regulate service due to the notoriously bad traffic in the area. (It's occasionally used as an overflow stand for SWR rail replacement services too.)

I definitely agree with you that there's little point in terminating the 110 at Manor Circus, given that the objectives of the consultation included - as you mentioned - a desire to reduce bus capacity between there and Richmond town centre. Perhaps the Kew Green stand might be a better alternative?