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Post by tooting395 on Nov 13, 2018 12:20:12 GMT
What do you think will be the big changes coming to croydon?
Some have already mentioned the 154 and 75 swapping destinations and 466 being with drawn in favour of the 130.
Anyone thinking whether the speculated new arriva garage in beddington is linked?
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Post by snoggle on Nov 13, 2018 12:29:38 GMT
What do you think will be the big changes coming to croydon? Some have already mentioned the 154 and 75 swapping destinations and 466 being with drawn in favour of the 130. Anyone thinking whether the speculated new arriva garage in beddington is linked? I'm no expert on Croydon bus routes hence no route level ideas below but my sense of things is that TfL want to do the following. - reduce overall bus movements across Central Croydon (75 change fits this objective) - link together some routes that presently terminate in Croydon to reduce stand space requirements and free up space for other routes to be cut short - terminate more buses near East Croydon / Dingwall Rd and force people on to trams to reach other parts of Croydon town centre (Boing Boing Hopper Ticket strikes again). - possibly create one or two new links in the network - very modest increases on some routes but offset by savings elsewhere - we know there are tweaks being made to routes in Caterham too. Again not huge but the routes do serve the Borough of Croydon. Much of the above is to facilitate the inevitable huge increase in lorry movements when the Whitgift and surrounding area is redeveloped. Obviously I am guessing but the new mantra is rationalisation, simplification and a reduction in "Bus on Bus congestion" (a loathsome phrase that TfL should never use) and my guesses align with those concepts. |
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 13:10:50 GMT
What do you think will be the big changes coming to croydon? Some have already mentioned the 154 and 75 swapping destinations and 466 being with drawn in favour of the 130. Anyone thinking whether the speculated new arriva garage in beddington is linked? I think the 64,412 and 433 to Selsdon might be seen as a tad excessive. I wouldn't be surprised to see the 64 withdrawn between West Croydon and TH or the 455 between Croydon town centre and Purley with the 312 extended to Old Lodge Lane. |
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Post by redbus on Nov 13, 2018 13:35:50 GMT
What do you think will be the big changes coming to croydon? Some have already mentioned the 154 and 75 swapping destinations and 466 being with drawn in favour of the 130. Anyone thinking whether the speculated new arriva garage in beddington is linked? I'm no expert on Croydon bus routes hence no route level ideas below but my sense of things is that TfL want to do the following. - reduce overall bus movements across Central Croydon (75 change fits this objective) - link together some routes that presently terminate in Croydon to reduce stand space requirements and free up space for other routes to be cut short - terminate more buses near East Croydon / Dingwall Rd and force people on to trams to reach other parts of Croydon town centre (Boing Boing Hopper Ticket strikes again). - possibly create one or two new links in the network - very modest increases on some routes but offset by savings elsewhere - we know there are tweaks being made to routes in Caterham too. Again not huge but the routes do serve the Borough of Croydon. Much of the above is to facilitate the inevitable huge increase in lorry movements when the Whitgift and surrounding area is redeveloped. Obviously I am guessing but the new mantra is rationalisation, simplification and a reduction in "Bus on Bus congestion" (a loathsome phrase that TfL should never use) and my guesses align with those concepts. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the term 'bus on bus congestion'. I seriously challenge whoever thought of this and those that support the idea of cutting buses because of it to a proper informed debate. Buses are part of the solution to congestion, not the cause. Removing buses and so links to reduce bus on bus congestion just makes matters worse. It is up to authorities both local and TfL to ensure there is sufficient road space for the needs of the population and that includes buses. That doesn't mean unfettered cars before anyone jumps on me, but making sure there is enough space for essential journeys, whether it the bus, the deliveries to shops and so on. The way the modern world is structured means we are dependent upon this.
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 14:01:51 GMT
I'm no expert on Croydon bus routes hence no route level ideas below but my sense of things is that TfL want to do the following. - reduce overall bus movements across Central Croydon (75 change fits this objective) - link together some routes that presently terminate in Croydon to reduce stand space requirements and free up space for other routes to be cut short - terminate more buses near East Croydon / Dingwall Rd and force people on to trams to reach other parts of Croydon town centre (Boing Boing Hopper Ticket strikes again). - possibly create one or two new links in the network - very modest increases on some routes but offset by savings elsewhere - we know there are tweaks being made to routes in Caterham too. Again not huge but the routes do serve the Borough of Croydon. Much of the above is to facilitate the inevitable huge increase in lorry movements when the Whitgift and surrounding area is redeveloped. Obviously I am guessing but the new mantra is rationalisation, simplification and a reduction in "Bus on Bus congestion" (a loathsome phrase that TfL should never use) and my guesses align with those concepts. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the term 'bus on bus congestion'. I seriously challenge whoever thought of this and those that support the idea of cutting buses because of it to a proper informed debate. Buses are part of the solution to congestion, not the cause. Removing buses and so links to reduce bus on bus congestion just makes matters worse. It is up to authorities both local and TfL to ensure there is sufficient road space for the needs of the population and that includes buses. That doesn't mean unfettered cars before anyone jumps on me, but making sure there is enough space for essential journeys, whether it the bus, the deliveries to shops and so on. The way the modern world is structured means we are dependent upon this.
I'm afraid bus on bus congestion, or whatever you want to call it, is a very real problem in some town centres. |
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Post by redbus on Nov 13, 2018 15:40:21 GMT
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the term 'bus on bus congestion'. I seriously challenge whoever thought of this and those that support the idea of cutting buses because of it to a proper informed debate. Buses are part of the solution to congestion, not the cause. Removing buses and so links to reduce bus on bus congestion just makes matters worse. It is up to authorities both local and TfL to ensure there is sufficient road space for the needs of the population and that includes buses. That doesn't mean unfettered cars before anyone jumps on me, but making sure there is enough space for essential journeys, whether it the bus, the deliveries to shops and so on. The way the modern world is structured means we are dependent upon this.
I'm afraid bus on bus congestion, or whatever you want to call it, is a very real problem in some town centres. I am sure you are right, but if we want people in our town centres we have to have proper access that people want to use. If you don't want so many buses, you may either turn people away which won't help the local shops, or you'll have even more congestion with more cars. This comes down to planning, how we want to use our town centres and sensible travel options for people to reach them. I am afraid too much of the time we want to have our cake and eat it, but we can't, and so-called bus on bus congestion may well be the least worst option. |
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 15:48:47 GMT
I'm afraid bus on bus congestion, or whatever you want to call it, is a very real problem in some town centres. I am sure you are right, but if we want people in our town centres we have to have proper access that people want to use. If you don't want so many buses, you may either turn people away which won't help the local shops, or you'll have even more congestion with more cars. This comes down to planning, how we want to use our town centres and sensible travel options for people to reach them. I am afraid too much of the time we want to have our cake and eat it, but we can't, and so-called bus on bus congestion may well be the least worst option. Yes there is a lot of wanting to have cake and eat it too and whilst I can understand TfL wanting to reduce bus movements in Croydon town centre I don't think curtailing the 75 and possibly the 154 is the best way to go about it. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 13, 2018 16:34:20 GMT
I'm afraid bus on bus congestion, or whatever you want to call it, is a very real problem in some town centres. I am sure you are right, but if we want people in our town centres we have to have proper access that people want to use. If you don't want so many buses, you may either turn people away which won't help the local shops, or you'll have even more congestion with more cars. This comes down to planning, how we want to use our town centres and sensible travel options for people to reach them. I am afraid too much of the time we want to have our cake and eat it, but we can't, and so-called bus on bus congestion may well be the least worst option. But people want to go shopping in their cars .... making town centres inaccessible and hard to park is what is killing them .... you only need to see the queues for retail parks to realise what the public wants. If I go shopping I do not want to lug heavy shopping bags around town, on a bus they maybe packed, and then a further walk at the other end |
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Post by lonmark on Nov 13, 2018 16:37:48 GMT
what about route 367? do it really need to go via East Croydon? it should be better quick via 289 to West Croydon? Why? 367 is service many time by Tram Stops like Addiscombe, East Croydon, Elmers End (closer enough), Beckenham Jct (near). So they can able to use the tram as hopper fares!  OR go via East Croydon but end up at Park Street? save not go via Wellesley Road to West Croydon? |
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Post by redbus on Nov 13, 2018 16:46:10 GMT
I am sure you are right, but if we want people in our town centres we have to have proper access that people want to use. If you don't want so many buses, you may either turn people away which won't help the local shops, or you'll have even more congestion with more cars. This comes down to planning, how we want to use our town centres and sensible travel options for people to reach them. I am afraid too much of the time we want to have our cake and eat it, but we can't, and so-called bus on bus congestion may well be the least worst option. But people want to go shopping in their cars .... making town centres inaccessible and hard to park is what is killing them .... you only need to see the queues for retail parks to realise what the public wants. If I go shopping I do not want to lug heavy shopping bags around town, on a bus they maybe packed, and then a further walk at the other end I am not sure where to start on this one without writing a very long post, but I shall be brief.
Cars are an important form of transport, but we simply don't have enough roads for the journeys people wish to make. Buses and other forms of transport can and do very much help, and can also can be used by those that can't or won't drive. So it is always going to be some form of mixture and working out how to use the best available road space for all forms of road transport. We as bus enthusiast will prioritise buses, the cycle lobby bicycles and so on. Truth is that we have to have town centres for everyone, so that means offering a mixture of buses, shared cycles, car parking and so on. To what extent you allocate road space to each form of transport is another issue for another time, but you are right that provision for car parking can help local town centres.
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 17:04:38 GMT
what about route 367? do it really need to go via East Croydon? it should be better quick via 289 to West Croydon? Why? 367 is service many time by Tram Stops like Addiscombe, East Croydon, Elmers End (closer enough), Beckenham Jct (near). So they can able to use the tram as hopper fares! OR go via East Croydon but end up at Park Street? save not go via Wellesley Road to West Croydon? Probably better going via Addiscombe Road like it used to do, far too long winded a route now. Those that want to get to the shops in Addiscombe can change onto the tram at Sandilands. It would leave Shirley Road without a bus service though if the 130/466 merger goes ahead. |
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 17:13:30 GMT
I am sure you are right, but if we want people in our town centres we have to have proper access that people want to use. If you don't want so many buses, you may either turn people away which won't help the local shops, or you'll have even more congestion with more cars. This comes down to planning, how we want to use our town centres and sensible travel options for people to reach them. I am afraid too much of the time we want to have our cake and eat it, but we can't, and so-called bus on bus congestion may well be the least worst option. But people want to go shopping in their cars .... making town centres inaccessible and hard to park is what is killing them .... you only need to see the queues for retail parks to realise what the public wants. If I go shopping I do not want to lug heavy shopping bags around town, on a bus they maybe packed, and then a further walk at the other end And those that don't go to retail parks generally shop online. The decline in footfall, to use the modern terminology, in Croydon town centre is very noticeable and obviously bus usage has declined as a result although Tramlink is generally busy. If this new all singing and all dancing Westfield development is going ahead it's one hell of a risk in the current climate. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 13, 2018 17:24:31 GMT
But people want to go shopping in their cars .... making town centres inaccessible and hard to park is what is killing them .... you only need to see the queues for retail parks to realise what the public wants. If I go shopping I do not want to lug heavy shopping bags around town, on a bus they maybe packed, and then a further walk at the other end I am not sure where to start on this one without writing a very long post, but I shall be brief.
Cars are an important form of transport, but we simply don't have enough roads for the journeys people wish to make. Buses and other forms of transport can and do very much help, and can also can be used by those that can't or won't drive. So it is always going to be some form of mixture and working out how to use the best available road space for all forms of road transport. We as bus enthusiast will prioritise buses, the cycle lobby bicycles and so on. Truth is that we have to have town centres for everyone, so that means offering a mixture of buses, shared cycles, car parking and so on. To what extent you allocate road space to each form of transport is another issue for another time, but you are right that provision for car parking can help local town centres.
How many well establish high street retailers have hit financial difficulties this year? Loads. If high steets and town centres are not made to be attractive for Joe public to get to ... they just get thing delivered by vans via the internet. So by not making town centres attractive to cars ... you just get 4 delivery vans going to a house instead of one car going into a town ... so not convinced by the not enough road space argument. You have just created more traffic by making the town centres car unfriendly. |
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Post by tooting395 on Nov 13, 2018 17:28:06 GMT
what about route 367? do it really need to go via East Croydon? it should be better quick via 289 to West Croydon? Why? 367 is service many time by Tram Stops like Addiscombe, East Croydon, Elmers End (closer enough), Beckenham Jct (near). So they can able to use the tram as hopper fares! OR go via East Croydon but end up at Park Street? save not go via Wellesley Road to West Croydon? Probably better going via Addiscombe Road like it used to do, far too long winded a route now. Those that want to get to the shops in Addiscombe can change onto the tram at Sandilands. It would leave Shirley Road without a bus service though if the 130/466 merger goes ahead. Possibly, but on London reconnections they mentioned the bridge on St James road needing to be replaced so the 289 route will probably be changed a little when that goes ahead, so doubt 367 will be routed through there |
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Post by sid on Nov 13, 2018 17:30:43 GMT
Probably better going via Addiscombe Road like it used to do, far too long winded a route now. Those that want to get to the shops in Addiscombe can change onto the tram at Sandilands. It would leave Shirley Road without a bus service though if the 130/466 merger goes ahead. Possibly, but on London reconnections they mentioned the bridge on St James road needing to be replaced so the 289 route will probably be changed a little when that goes ahead, so doubt 367 will be routed through there Yes and if that is closed I dread to think of the traffic chaos with very little in the way of alternatives. Presumably the 289 would be rerouted via East Croydon but other routes should be ok. Just to be clear I was suggesting that the 367 goes via Addiscombe Road as per the 119 etc. |
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