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Post by SILENCED on Nov 13, 2018 17:34:37 GMT
Possibly, but on London reconnections they mentioned the bridge on St James road needing to be replaced so the 289 route will probably be changed a little when that goes ahead, so doubt 367 will be routed through there Yes and if that is closed I dread to think of the traffic chaos with very little in the way of alternatives. Presumably the 289 would be rerouted via East Croydon but other routes should be ok. Just to be clear I was suggesting that the 367 goes via Addiscombe Road as per the 119 etc. This should be a very quick bridge replacement as it will need a line blockade ... think the plan is to do it over a 2-3 week period over a Xmas and New Year period, but will be one of the early phases of the project. |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 13, 2018 19:06:02 GMT
I am not sure where to start on this one without writing a very long post, but I shall be brief.
Cars are an important form of transport, but we simply don't have enough roads for the journeys people wish to make. Buses and other forms of transport can and do very much help, and can also can be used by those that can't or won't drive. So it is always going to be some form of mixture and working out how to use the best available road space for all forms of road transport. We as bus enthusiast will prioritise buses, the cycle lobby bicycles and so on. Truth is that we have to have town centres for everyone, so that means offering a mixture of buses, shared cycles, car parking and so on. To what extent you allocate road space to each form of transport is another issue for another time, but you are right that provision for car parking can help local town centres.
How many well establish high street retailers have hit financial difficulties this year? Loads. If high steets and town centres are not made to be attractive for Joe public to get to ... they just get thing delivered by vans via the internet. So by not making town centres attractive to cars ... you just get 4 delivery vans going to a house instead of one car going into a town ... so not convinced by the not enough road space argument. You have just created more traffic by making the town centres car unfriendly. But not every high street is suffering - in Brixton, we have only lost Mothercare in recent times and have added a Prett Manger & Sports Direct along with some smaller retailers like Size and yet, parking for cars has been terrible for years so you could argue it’s car unfriendly but yet traffic, whilst not perfect, is not downright atrocious. There is little pedestrian zones as well which is what hinders public transport in other places such as Croydon. |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 14, 2018 0:26:04 GMT
But people want to go shopping in their cars .... making town centres inaccessible and hard to park is what is killing them .... you only need to see the queues for retail parks to realise what the public wants. If I go shopping I do not want to lug heavy shopping bags around town, on a bus they maybe packed, and then a further walk at the other end And those that don't go to retail parks generally shop online. The decline in footfall, to use the modern terminology, in Croydon town centre is very noticeable and obviously bus usage has declined as a result although Tramlink is generally busy. If this new all singing and all dancing Westfield development is going ahead it's one hell of a risk in the current climate. And where are the shoppers going instead? On Tramlink to Waddon Marsh or Ampere Way for the out of town stores. It's no surprise how busy the Wimbledon section is because of it. I'd imagine Centrale (which I wouldn't be surprised if renamed Westfield after the works are completed) will see an increase once Westfield opens, currently it's quiet for such a central station. IKEA on Saturday afternoon was busier than North End. |
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Post by sid on Nov 14, 2018 10:41:21 GMT
I have to say I'm more than a little bit dubious about the alleged 8% increase in bus usage in Croydon, an 8% decrease sounds far more likely.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 14, 2018 10:48:17 GMT
The LO must have taken some bus demand away I'd have thought especially with the large amount to train to Norwood Junction and the 4 LO tph to Penge west, Sydenham and Forest Hill. Also since Tramlink actually opened there hasn't been any reductions in conjunction hence why now the 130/466 is being reviewed and maybe a bus reduction to Elmers End (289,194 and 367). Also southern local train fares can be lower then people think so there could have been a switch to trains from Purley and Coulsdon South.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 14, 2018 11:23:50 GMT
The LO must have taken some bus demand away I'd have thought especially with the large amount to train to Norwood Junction and the 4 LO tph to Penge west, Sydenham and Forest Hill. Also since Tramlink actually opened there hasn't been any reductions in conjunction hence why now the 130/466 is being reviewed and maybe a bus reduction to Elmers End (289,194 and 367). Also southern local train fares can be lower then people think so there could have been a switch to trains from Purley and Coulsdon South. South London's railway is run by terrible operators aside from the Overground who have driven their customers away from trains so we can't be suggesting that as a better alternative or that bus routes should be cut - trains are there to assist, not compete. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 14, 2018 11:35:57 GMT
The LO must have taken some bus demand away I'd have thought especially with the large amount to train to Norwood Junction and the 4 LO tph to Penge west, Sydenham and Forest Hill. Also since Tramlink actually opened there hasn't been any reductions in conjunction hence why now the 130/466 is being reviewed and maybe a bus reduction to Elmers End (289,194 and 367). Also southern local train fares can be lower then people think so there could have been a switch to trains from Purley and Coulsdon South. LO really just replaced the slow Southern Services from the Croydon area .... So gain at this end was minimal .... whilst sacrificing London Bridge services ... Now if you live Sydenham or north of it you get 8tph on LO .... But only 4tph South of there. |
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Post by danorak on Nov 14, 2018 12:35:37 GMT
I have to say I'm more than a little bit dubious about the alleged 8% increase in bus usage in Croydon, an 8% decrease sounds far more likely. It's more nuanced than that. The figure comes from a map TfL provided in the Central London consultation titled "Change in bus capacity utilisation by Borough, 2014/15 – 2017/18". TfL has chosen to describe this as "how many people are using our buses and how this has changed considerably during the period 2014/15 – 2017/18". I think it shows something slightly different - a lot of capacity was stripped out in Croydon when the New Addington network was revised, so capacity utilisation will have improved rather than the number of passengers increasing. But if TfL choose to use it in the way they have, they cannot be surprised to have it quoted back at them. |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 14, 2018 12:39:28 GMT
The LO must have taken some bus demand away I'd have thought especially with the large amount to train to Norwood Junction and the 4 LO tph to Penge west, Sydenham and Forest Hill. Also since Tramlink actually opened there hasn't been any reductions in conjunction hence why now the 130/466 is being reviewed and maybe a bus reduction to Elmers End (289,194 and 367). Also southern local train fares can be lower then people think so there could have been a switch to trains from Purley and Coulsdon South. LO really just replaced the slow Southern Services from the Croydon area .... So gain at this end was minimal .... whilst sacrificing London Bridge services ... Now if you live Sydenham or north of it you get 8tph on LO .... But only 4tph South of there. They replaced the 2tph Southern stopper service which used to run on the slow lines between London Bridge and Sutton via Forest Hill. There's still a 2tph off-peak Southern slow service to Coulsdon Town which calls at Penge West and Anerley in addition to those Overground services which run via East Croydon. The 197 runs pretty close to Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge West, Norwood Junction and East Croydon. I suspect the northern end of the route between Forest Hill and Peckham keeps that route viable at it's current frequency, while the Overground and Tramlink has reduced usage at the other end. When the off-peak fare on LO is the same as the long winded 197, it's a no brainer which mode you'll use. |
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Post by sid on Nov 14, 2018 13:00:14 GMT
LO really just replaced the slow Southern Services from the Croydon area .... So gain at this end was minimal .... whilst sacrificing London Bridge services ... Now if you live Sydenham or north of it you get 8tph on LO .... But only 4tph South of there. They replaced the 2tph Southern stopper service which used to run on the slow lines between London Bridge and Sutton via Forest Hill. There's still a 2tph off-peak Southern slow service to Coulsdon Town which calls at Penge West and Anerley in addition to those Overground services which run via East Croydon. The 197 runs pretty close to Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge West, Norwood Junction and East Croydon. I suspect the northern end of the route between Forest Hill and Peckham keeps that route viable at it's current frequency, while the Overground and Tramlink has reduced usage at the other end. When the off-peak fare on LO is the same as the long winded 197, it's a no brainer which mode you'll use. I've noticed that, the 197 very busy between Peckham and Forest Hill especially at peak times but the rest of the route is pretty quiet nowadays and as you say I'm sure LO is the reason. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 14, 2018 13:34:35 GMT
LO really just replaced the slow Southern Services from the Croydon area .... So gain at this end was minimal .... whilst sacrificing London Bridge services ... Now if you live Sydenham or north of it you get 8tph on LO .... But only 4tph South of there. They replaced the 2tph Southern stopper service which used to run on the slow lines between London Bridge and Sutton via Forest Hill. There's still a 2tph off-peak Southern slow service to Coulsdon Town which calls at Penge West and Anerley in addition to those Overground services which run via East Croydon. The 197 runs pretty close to Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge West, Norwood Junction and East Croydon. I suspect the northern end of the route between Forest Hill and Peckham keeps that route viable at it's current frequency, while the Overground and Tramlink has reduced usage at the other end. When the off-peak fare on LO is the same as the long winded 197, it's a no brainer which mode you'll use. So we lost 2 trains per hour to London Bridge which is where most people want to go and replaced my 4tph on East London line ... not sure I classify that as an improvement really ... especially when they are 5-car which replaced 8-car trains |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 14, 2018 18:36:07 GMT
They replaced the 2tph Southern stopper service which used to run on the slow lines between London Bridge and Sutton via Forest Hill. There's still a 2tph off-peak Southern slow service to Coulsdon Town which calls at Penge West and Anerley in addition to those Overground services which run via East Croydon. The 197 runs pretty close to Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge West, Norwood Junction and East Croydon. I suspect the northern end of the route between Forest Hill and Peckham keeps that route viable at it's current frequency, while the Overground and Tramlink has reduced usage at the other end. When the off-peak fare on LO is the same as the long winded 197, it's a no brainer which mode you'll use. So we lost 2 trains per hour to London Bridge which is where most people want to go and replaced my 4tph on East London line ... not sure I classify that as an improvement really ... especially when they are 5-car which replaced 8-car trains The increase in the station figures speak for themselves and those West Croydon LO services are always very busy. The Southern services off-peak are quieter than pre May 2010 when they operated 6tph between London Bridge and Sydenham (4tph to Norwood Junction of which 2tph as now call at Penge West and Anerley). The interchange for tube lines at Canada Water, Whitechapel and Highbury & Islington are more of an advantage than the London Bridge terminus. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 14, 2018 18:45:04 GMT
So we lost 2 trains per hour to London Bridge which is where most people want to go and replaced my 4tph on East London line ... not sure I classify that as an improvement really ... especially when they are 5-car which replaced 8-car trains The increase in the station figures speak for themselves and those West Croydon LO services are always very busy. The Southern services off-peak are quieter than pre May 2010 when they operated 6tph between London Bridge and Sydenham (4tph to Norwood Junction of which 2tph as now call at Penge West and Anerley). The interchange for tube lines at Canada Water, Whitechapel and Highbury & Islington are more of an advantage than the London Bridge terminus. We will have to agree to disagree as I either disagree with what you have stated or it has not been what I have experienced .... me personally would love to scrap LO services from Croydon it they were replaced by London Bridge services. The London Bridge service are nearly always rammed whenever I have used them ... which is at varying times of the day/week |
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Post by busaholic on Nov 14, 2018 20:49:32 GMT
 go and replaced my 4tph on East London line ... not sure I classify that as an improvement really ... especially when they are 5-car which replaced 8-car trains The increase in the station figures speak for themselves and those West Croydon LO services are always very busy. The Southern services off-peak are quieter than pre May 2010 when they operated 6tph between London Bridge and Sydenham (4tph to Norwood Junction of which 2tph as now call at Penge West and Anerley). The interchange for tube lines at Canada Water, Whitechapel and Highbury & Islington are more of an advantage than the London Bridge terminus. If you want to get to most of what might be called Central London i.e. the West End, Holborn and a lot of the City of London, not forgetting London Bridge itself and the Southbank, the Overground route should be almost irrelevant except in an emergency. I well remember, shortly after the announcement on the extension of the East London Line to Croydon and Crystal Palace, how house prices in Brockley were the fastest rising in London, and probably the whole country, because of the new links, great if you wanted Canary Wharf and Docklands, maybe a small part of the City near Shoreditch too. I don't think it was ever stated implicitly that all London Bridge services would be retained (indeed, it was doubtful the logistics would allow it) but it was certainly inferred. I had friends (non-Londoners) whose daughter was contemplating buying a flat in Brockley, and asked me about the area, as I lived in S.E. London for 40 years, and its transport. I couldn't comment on the former, as it had changed so much since I knew it last, but I was able to give an opinion on the rail situation, knowing that Overground didn't operate anywhere near her work place. I do remember saying, don't necessarily expect so many London Bridge services in the future, especially as some current users will switch to East London Line but also (presciently? ) if ELL gets over-subscribed there'll be no way either extra carriages or extra trains can be provided for a few years at least. |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 14, 2018 21:33:28 GMT
The increase in the station figures speak for themselves and those West Croydon LO services are always very busy. The Southern services off-peak are quieter than pre May 2010 when they operated 6tph between London Bridge and Sydenham (4tph to Norwood Junction of which 2tph as now call at Penge West and Anerley). The interchange for tube lines at Canada Water, Whitechapel and Highbury & Islington are more of an advantage than the London Bridge terminus. If you want to get to most of what might be called Central London i.e. the West End, Holborn and a lot of the City of London, not forgetting London Bridge itself and the Southbank, the Overground route should be almost irrelevant except in an emergency. I well remember, shortly after the announcement on the extension of the East London Line to Croydon and Crystal Palace, how house prices in Brockley were the fastest rising in London, and probably the whole country, because of the new links, great if you wanted Canary Wharf and Docklands, maybe a small part of the City near Shoreditch too. I don't think it was ever stated implicitly that all London Bridge services would be retained (indeed, it was doubtful the logistics would allow it) but it was certainly inferred. I had friends (non-Londoners) whose daughter was contemplating buying a flat in Brockley, and asked me about the area, as I lived in S.E. London for 40 years, and its transport. I couldn't comment on the former, as it had changed so much since I knew it last, but I was able to give an opinion on the rail situation, knowing that Overground didn't operate anywhere near her work place. I do remember saying, don't necessarily expect so many London Bridge services in the future, especially as some current users will switch to East London Line but also (presciently? ) if ELL gets over-subscribed there'll be no way either extra carriages or extra trains can be provided for a few years at least. The point is that the ELL allows easier connections to tube lines at Canada Water and Whitechapel, it'll also have connections with the Elizabeth line when it eventually opens. It's not just designed for a day trip to Hoxton or Dalston. I regularly use the Overground from Forest Hill which is a much busier station than it was pre 2010 as a Southern only station to London Bridge. Since it opened, I've been able to travel around a lot more faster to places such as Romford, Uxbridge, Stratford and the West End etc without having to change at London Bridge or being charged the premium in Zone 1 for changing between Southern and TfL modes. For those of us who actually have used Southern into London Bridge since the 'improvements' to the station and the unwinding of the lines to allow Thameslink to operate independently, who use the stopper services, the time it takes to get from New Cross Gate to LBG has actually doubled. In any case, those who really use West Croydon to get to London Bridge should consider changing at Norwood Junction where there are fast services to London Bridge, while the rest of the travelling public have switched to LO for cheaper fares and easier connections with other TfL modes. |
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