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Post by arrivaarriva on Nov 27, 2018 14:28:20 GMT
Just 1.5 miles from origin to destination, 25-30 minutes walk yet this route is 65 minutes long including the totally unnecessary visit to Alperton Station and Alperton Sainsbury's (double run) as well as the equally unnecessary jaunt along Twyford Abbey Road and Iveagh Avenue. Why can't the 224 from Wembley simply turn left after the Stanley Road stop into Mount Pleasant and turn right out of Mount Pleasant onto Ealing Road in the other direction? Most time wasting route IMHO.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 27, 2018 14:38:17 GMT
Just 1.5 miles from origin to destination, 25-30 minutes walk yet this route is 65 minutes long including the totally unnecessary visit to Alperton Station and Alperton Sainsbury's (double run) as well as the equally unnecessary jaunt along Twyford Abbey Road and Iveagh Avenue. Why can't the 224 from Wembley simply turn left after the Stanley Road stop into Mount Pleasant and turn right out of Mount Pleasant onto Ealing Road in the other direction? Most time wasting route IMHO. It’s not unnecessary - the reason the 224 & other winding routes exist is to serve areas that aren’t served by other routes where passengers make short hop journeys - on my travels, the 224 is generally quite busy as it was when I used it two Saturdays ago. There is no doubt demand from the Sainsbury’s to the backroads between Alperton & the Stonebridge Park area hence why the double run exists. The P5 is in a similar position but without any double runs - Patmore Estate to Elephant aren’t too far apart but the route is absolutely necessary to fill in the gaps. |
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Post by 15002 on Nov 27, 2018 14:42:51 GMT
Just 1.5 miles from origin to destination, 25-30 minutes walk yet this route is 65 minutes long including the totally unnecessary visit to Alperton Station and Alperton Sainsbury's (double run) as well as the equally unnecessary jaunt along Twyford Abbey Road and Iveagh Avenue. Why can't the 224 from Wembley simply turn left after the Stanley Road stop into Mount Pleasant and turn right out of Mount Pleasant onto Ealing Road in the other direction? Most time wasting route IMHO. It’s not unnecessary - the reason the 224 & other winding routes exist is to serve areas that aren’t served by other routes where passengers make short hop journeys - on my travels, the 224 is generally quite busy as it was when I used it two Saturdays ago. There is no doubt demand from the Sainsbury’s to the backroads between Alperton & the Stonebridge Park area hence why the double run exists. The P5 is in a similar position but without any double runs - Patmore Estate to Elephant aren’t too far apart but the route is absolutely necessary to fill in the gaps. 376 is also a perfect example of both of its terminus being near each other, East Ham to Beckton but it is an essential route for places that aren’t served by other routes and local links as well as short hops too. |
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Post by danorak on Nov 27, 2018 16:21:55 GMT
The 386 is another contorted route, continually doubling back on itself, but it serves a number of useful purposes.
The 23 is a new entry to this category: I wonder how long it would take to walk from Westbourne Park to Kensington High Street compared to using a 23?
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Post by snoggle on Nov 27, 2018 16:29:10 GMT
Not sure why you view it as a "time wasting" route. No one in their right mind would use it end to end. However if you view it as a series of shorter links joined together then it makes more sense. There are lots of London bus routes that are like this. It's one of the reasons why the network largely makes sense - it gets you close to a lot of London with relative ease. Many bus journeys are also relatively short but clever route design ensures that many journey opportunities are covered by single routes.
Looking at the route's history on Ian Armstrong's site the double run via Alperton Sainsburys was introduced in the mid 90s and is clearly popular. Given the pretty awful traffic conditions in that part of Alperton I certainly would not want to drag my shopping across the busy main roads to get a bus. The fact that routes terminate / loop through Sainsburys gives people sensible travel options to avoid using a car.
If we had a deregulated network then you'd find one of two things with routes like the 224. They would either not exist at all as commercial operators would view them as "non core" routes or they would be subsidised services with very poor frequencies and limited operating hours such as M-F shopping hours. There are some networks like the West Midlands which used to be pretty comprehensive but now all the second or third tier routes have gone or are extremely basic thus depriving people of local transport links or forcing them to walk long distances to reach commercial routes. And people wonder why bus use is rock bottom in those areas. If TfL's cuts regime keeps going then these are the sorts of routes we have to watch out for as the axe cuts deeper.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 20:45:14 GMT
325 is another route that is almost a complete circle. I doubt anyone would catch a 325 from Prince Regent to Beckton Via Custom House, Plasitow, Forest Gate, East Ham and finally on to Beckton.
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Post by ronnie on Nov 27, 2018 20:51:20 GMT
325 is another route that is almost a complete circle. I doubt anyone would catch a 325 from Prince Regent to Beckton Via Custom House, Plasitow, Forest Gate, East Ham and finally on to Beckton. Unless, of course, people from this forum doing end to ends! |
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Post by ronnie on Nov 27, 2018 20:54:09 GMT
Just 1.5 miles from origin to destination, 25-30 minutes walk yet this route is 65 minutes long including the totally unnecessary visit to Alperton Station and Alperton Sainsbury's (double run) as well as the equally unnecessary jaunt along Twyford Abbey Road and Iveagh Avenue. Why can't the 224 from Wembley simply turn left after the Stanley Road stop into Mount Pleasant and turn right out of Mount Pleasant onto Ealing Road in the other direction? Most time wasting route IMHO. It’s not unnecessary - the reason the 224 & other winding routes exist is to serve areas that aren’t served by other routes where passengers make short hop journeys - on my travels, the 224 is generally quite busy as it was when I used it two Saturdays ago. There is no doubt demand from the Sainsbury’s to the backroads between Alperton & the Stonebridge Park area hence why the double run exists. The P5 is in a similar position but without any double runs - Patmore Estate to Elephant aren’t too far apart but the route is absolutely necessary to fill in the gaps. There are a bunch of routes like this (apart from the circular ones of course) which are nearly circular in shape or are very circuitous, in part or in whole Whole - all the ones mentioned till now, 61, the bus across Ruislip lido and a few more In parts: 135 242 4 (all at one end) |
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 27, 2018 21:36:53 GMT
Just 1.5 miles from origin to destination, 25-30 minutes walk yet this route is 65 minutes long including the totally unnecessary visit to Alperton Station and Alperton Sainsbury's (double run) as well as the equally unnecessary jaunt along Twyford Abbey Road and Iveagh Avenue. Why can't the 224 from Wembley simply turn left after the Stanley Road stop into Mount Pleasant and turn right out of Mount Pleasant onto Ealing Road in the other direction? Most time wasting route IMHO. TfL has a number of maxims to abide by when planning the bus network. Comprehensive network coverage is one of them. Some bus routes are designed to give several otherwise isolated pockets of London a lifeline - access to shops, stations and services, of which the 224 is one. I actually quite like routes of this type as they can offer supremely useful unique links. Such routes aren't unnecessary or time wasting, although I acknowledge that there is a higher perceived time penalty for through passengers who have to sit through double runs and the 224 is on the extreme end of that particular scale. But on another day, said passengers may well be going to Alperton Sainsburys for their weekly shop. Some customers might be undertaking longer distance trips and get more utility out of trunk routes, but the bus network is set up to cater for a far wider range of journeys. Diamond Geezer did a very good article on the topic of circuitous routes a few months ago - diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2018/04/almost-circular-bus-routes.html |
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Post by ibus246 on Nov 27, 2018 21:47:18 GMT
The 386 is another contorted route, continually doubling back on itself, but it serves a number of useful purposes. The 23 is a new entry to this category: I wonder how long it would take to walk from Westbourne Park to Kensington High Street compared to using a 23? 38 minutes according to google! |
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Post by redexpress on Nov 28, 2018 7:28:49 GMT
Last time this topic came up I think we established that the H13 is the most roundabout route - not in terms of double-runs or twisty bits, but in terms of distance covered vs. distance between the two termini.
There is a story (no idea if it's true) about an H13 driver who walked into the woods for a toilet break, got lost, and when he eventually found his way out of the woods he was at the other end of the route  . He didn't want to risk getting lost again so he had to ride another H13 from end to end just to retrieve his bus. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 28, 2018 8:31:32 GMT
Last time this topic came up I think we established that the H13 is the most roundabout route - not in terms of double-runs or twisty bits, but in terms of distance covered vs. distance between the two termini. There is a story (no idea if it's true) about an H13 driver who walked into the woods for a toilet break, got lost, and when he eventually found his way out of the woods he was at the other end of the route . He didn't want to risk getting lost again so he had to ride another H13 from end to end just to retrieve his bus. Sounds like folklore to me |
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Post by lundnah on Nov 28, 2018 9:21:49 GMT
The scientific way to measure roundabout-ness is called 'sinuosity'. It's the ratio of the actual distance divided by the direct distance. A perfectly straight bus route would have a sinuosity of 1.
The H13 and the 224 both have a sinuosity of about 8.
The 376 has a sinuosity of roughly 5, the 325 approximately 4, the new 23 more like 3½, the 386 about 3 and the P5 roughly 2½.
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 28, 2018 9:57:23 GMT
The scientific way to measure roundabout-ness is called 'sinuosity'. It's the ratio of the actual distance divided by the direct distance. A perfectly straight bus route would have a sinuosity of 1. The H13 and the 224 both have a sinuosity of about 8. The 376 has a sinuosity of roughly 5, the 325 approximately 4, the new 23 more like 3½, the 386 about 3 and the P5 roughly 2½. Interesting! I wonder which would be the closest to 1? The 149 and N16 are possible contenders! |
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Post by ronnie on Nov 28, 2018 13:32:07 GMT
The scientific way to measure roundabout-ness is called 'sinuosity'. It's the ratio of the actual distance divided by the direct distance. A perfectly straight bus route would have a sinuosity of 1. The H13 and the 224 both have a sinuosity of about 8. The 376 has a sinuosity of roughly 5, the 325 approximately 4, the new 23 more like 3½, the 386 about 3 and the P5 roughly 2½. Interesting! I wonder which would be the closest to 1? The 149 and N16 are possible contenders! 25, N25, 86, N86 as well I think |
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. He didn't want to risk getting lost again so he had to ride another H13 from end to end just to retrieve his bus.