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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 8:53:15 GMT
A common scenario is several terminating buses arrive at same time and clog up the bus stops .
The roadway is like a race track, with cars coming down the buses offside often at speed.
The preferred way to pull out from the bus stops is to use some free space ahead of you as a slip road and ease out into the traffic.
If terminating buses are clogging up the bus stops, the departing buses have to pull straight out into this fast traffic.
Falcon drivers are often culprits of daudling, or those going out of service.
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Post by snowman on Feb 3, 2020 8:57:11 GMT
Is there any particular reason why it needs demolishing. I know the stands are not very wheelchair friends but that could easily be remedied by the routes picking up at the stops along the road where the passing routes stop. There is already a wheelchair-friendly stop on the exit from the sawtooth stands, served on request if a wheelchair user wants to board one of the affected routes. So there's no need for buses to pick up on Cromwell Road. The design has a glass canopy that was designed on the cheap, so it has frame poles all over the place which makes passenger circulation difficult. The design must have been for more infrequent buses, but really a lot of the problem is caused by disembarking buses at end of the run causing bus congestion using the stops outside the bus station. Not quite sure why the sawtooth walkways could not be extended to reach the middle door (even if they lost a stand, by making the sawtooth further spaced) as it would then allow buses to park without causing congestion, then unload. Even if they abandoned the stands that need reversing into at the end, and used this for more boarding stands (which I have never seen full, as only usually 1-2 buses in them). The real irony, is if TfL had realised they could extend 71 to Ham, Duke Avenue (to help the busy 65 on this stretch), then they could have modified the sawtooth as would have needed fewer bays |
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Post by snowman on Feb 3, 2020 10:08:29 GMT
A common scenario is several terminating buses arrive at same time and clog up the bus stops . The roadway is like a race track, with cars coming down the buses offside often at speed. The preferred way to pull out from the bus stops is to use some free space ahead of you as a slip road and ease out into the traffic. If terminating buses are clogging up the bus stops, the departing buses have to pull straight out into this fast traffic. Falcon drivers are often culprits of daudling, or those going out of service. The reason why the buses arrive in bunches is they have a right turn bus lane just before leaving Clarence Street, and the traffic lights controlling junction, effectively stop buses arriving continuously, but bunch up the buses waiting for the green filter light. Its not difficult to work out that if lights let through 4-6 buses at a time, then 4-6 will arrive at bus station together. But there are only effectively 2 stops for these bunches of buses (the other stops are for other routes) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 11:41:19 GMT
A common scenario is several terminating buses arrive at same time and clog up the bus stops . The roadway is like a race track, with cars coming down the buses offside often at speed. The preferred way to pull out from the bus stops is to use some free space ahead of you as a slip road and ease out into the traffic. If terminating buses are clogging up the bus stops, the departing buses have to pull straight out into this fast traffic. Falcon drivers are often culprits of daudling, or those going out of service. The reason why the buses arrive in bunches is they have a right turn bus lane just before leaving Clarence Street, and the traffic lights controlling junction, effectively stop buses arriving continuously, but bunch up the buses waiting for the green filter light. Its not difficult to work out that if lights let through 4-6 buses at a time, then 4-6 will arrive at bus station together. But there are only effectively 2 stops for these bunches of buses (the other stops are for other routes) Exactly. So I'm wondering what can be done design wise to alleviate that. There isnt really a great deal of space. If only there was a bus garage / station in Kingston... |
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Post by snowman on Feb 13, 2020 14:08:47 GMT
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Post by thelondonthing on Feb 13, 2020 22:03:18 GMT
Thanks for sharing that. It looks like the project is continuing to inch forward... A lot of what's in that invitation to tender is of course stuff we already know, although there is a more detailed description of the scope of works: The project duration is now specified as 18 months - it was previously pegged at 24 months (as part of a 2017 invitation to tender, before planning permission was granted), but that allowed for some time to be devoted to design work. It seems the design is now pretty much locked down, as the various approved planning documents show, so all that remains is for a contractor to be approved, and for construction to begin. That's easier said than done, of course - a schedule for construction and delivery will still have to be carefully planned by project stakeholders, including the contractor, dozens of sub-contractors, TfL, Network Rail (whose tracks are alongside the bus station site), and Kingston Council. Given where we're at now, I would be surprised if construction begins before 2021. One other detail that jumped out at me from the new invitation to tender: Where are these facilities to be provided? It would surely make little sense to provide them at the bus station site during construction, as buses will be forced to use temporary stands elsewhere in Kingston. So is this just another way of saying that they'll dump a portaloo for drivers to use next to wherever TfL creates its temporary stands?  The key question that remains, though, is where those temporary stands will actually end up. Kingston town centre's road layout, and its massive one-way system, don't offer many options for standing buses en masse, which means we may end up seeing buses having to travel a considerable extra distance in Kingston to reach their temporary stands, which is going to make it far tougher for operators to maintain a reliable service. I'm not looking forward to 18 months of that...! |
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Post by snowman on Feb 13, 2020 22:39:36 GMT
Maybe this might help with any temporary stands. It appears there is a plan to stop up Kingsgate Road and redevelop the site currently used for open air car park, which borders Sopwith Way (which is part of Kingston one way system) moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s86916/Planning%20Report%20Kingston%20Town%2009.01.2020%20Committee%20Report.pdfThis is actually the same site that was proposed for the new Kingston bus garage in 1950s (never built, a smaller garage in Norbiton opened instead). The small garage (now closed and replaced by Rotunda complex) would have become a covered bus station with all buses moving into new garage. Ironically Kingston is now getting a rebuilt open air bus station across the road from the bus garage that would have become a covered bus station. This same car park has been used for bus parking before, when Kingston bus garage was sold (and closed quicker than expected), it was used until Tolworth was ready to be opened. Think this was 2001 or 2002 |
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Post by thelondonthing on Feb 14, 2020 1:19:11 GMT
Interesting - I wasn't aware that that car park had previously been used for bus parking. That site around the Canbury Road Car Park certainly looks like a good place for a temporary stand, for at least some of the displaced routes, although there would surely need to be some changes to the site to improve bus access, as the tight turns and narrow roadways into the site aren't well suited for buses. Even so, I agree that it's a good candidate, assuming the timing for the bus station build lines up with plans for the car park redevelopment.
And just to add to your summary of Kingston's bus stations over the years, the current bus station used to be an open-air bus parking yard for Westlink!
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Post by thelondonthing on Feb 18, 2020 9:51:24 GMT
It looks like TfL is hoping to begin works this summer, much sooner than I had expected. According to this TfL listing, promoting the project to potential contractors, the "estimated contract dates" for the project would see it commence on 10 June 2020, ending on 4 January 2022. We already know from the recent invitation to tender (shared by snowman) that the primary contractor will no longer have responsibility for any aspect of the new bus station's design; this also shortened the length of the project to 18 months, down from an estimated 24-month duration before planning permission was granted. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that works on the site will begin fairly soon after the official contract start-date, rather than after several additional months of further design work. There's obviously no guarantee that works will start in June - it is quite clearly an "estimated" date, after all - but if things proceed as currently planned, we could see Cromwell Road Bus Station close in just a few months' time. |
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Post by snowman on Feb 18, 2020 10:41:42 GMT
It looks like TfL is hoping to begin works this summer, much sooner than I had expected. According to this TfL listing, promoting the project to potential contractors, the "estimated contract dates" for the project would see it commence on 10 June 2020, ending on 4 January 2022. We already know from the recent invitation to tender (shared by snowman) that the primary contractor will no longer have responsibility for any aspect of the new bus station's design; this also shortened the length of the project to 18 months, down from an estimated 24-month duration before planning permission was granted. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that works on the site will begin fairly soon after the official contract start-date, rather than after several additional months of further design work. There's obviously no guarantee that works will start in June - it is quite clearly an "estimated" date, after all - but if things proceed as currently planned, we could see Cromwell Road Bus Station close in just a few months' time. Also quite a strange end date (4 Jan) as normally virtually whole building industry shuts for a fortnight over Christmas and New Year. Additionally Kingston Council normally bans road works from early December until early January in town centre due to busy Christmas and sales shopping period. They wont be too happy having buses disrupted for 2 Christmas shopping periods. But possibly the buses will be back late 2021 and 4 Jan date is to allow contractors to complete any snagging. |
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Post by thelondonthing on Feb 18, 2020 10:58:07 GMT
I'd say that that's a very sensible guess. I would imagine that the plan would be to target Oct/Nov 2021 for re-opening, for the very reasons that you state.
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Post by thelondonthing on Nov 20, 2020 15:09:16 GMT
With the coronavirus crisis taking hold, it's not surprising that there hasn't been much progress on this project lately, but it appears to still be moving forward. The tender process is still active, and the final permission for the new build - detailing the site's drainage strategy, which was a key condition of the overall planning approval that was granted last year - was given by Kingston Council in April. Things are no doubt still up in the air with coronavirus conditions, but for now, here's a couple of images of the new Cromwell Road Bus Station that I found while digging around in planning documents:  Aside from the spooky ghost children, there's a couple of other oddities in that image: an elderly Metroline double-decker; and what I believe may be East London Buses' 34264 (!!) - neither of which are likely to be visitors to the new bus station.  LTs aplenty above - I think the one on the right is sporting an Arriva logo; and have LTs ever been spotted on the 285...? Still, the new bus station does look quite pretty, to my eyes at least. And finally, a plan-view of the new bus station layout, including an overlay of the existing kerb line (in grey) to show how the new layout compares with the old one (click on the image to open a larger version):  We'll just have to wait and see when works on the site actually begin, but I would imagine it's not TfL's top priority at the moment. |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 20, 2020 17:39:34 GMT
With the coronavirus crisis taking hold, it's not surprising that there hasn't been much progress on this project lately, but it appears to still be moving forward. The tender process is still active, and the final permission for the new build - detailing the site's drainage strategy, which was a key condition of the overall planning approval that was granted last year - was given by Kingston Council in April. Things are no doubt still up in the air with coronavirus conditions, but for now, here's a couple of images of the new Cromwell Road Bus Station that I found while digging around in planning documents: Aside from the spooky ghost children, there's a couple of other oddities in that image: an elderly Metroline double-decker; and what I believe may be East London Buses' 34264 (!!) - neither of which are likely to be visitors to the new bus station. LTs aplenty above - I think the one on the right is sporting an Arriva logo; and have LTs ever been spotted on the 285...? Still, the new bus station does look quite pretty, to my eyes at least. And finally, a plan-view of the new bus station layout, including an overlay of the existing kerb line (in grey) to show how the new layout compares with the old one (click on the image to open a larger version): We'll just have to wait and see when works on the site actually begin, but I would imagine it's not TfL's top priority at the moment. Looks like they're using a similar design that West Croydon Bus Station has - www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/18023931.changes-made-croydons-bus-routes---need-know/ |
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Post by Nathan on Nov 20, 2020 17:40:25 GMT
With the coronavirus crisis taking hold, it's not surprising that there hasn't been much progress on this project lately, but it appears to still be moving forward. The tender process is still active, and the final permission for the new build - detailing the site's drainage strategy, which was a key condition of the overall planning approval that was granted last year - was given by Kingston Council in April. Things are no doubt still up in the air with coronavirus conditions, but for now, here's a couple of images of the new Cromwell Road Bus Station that I found while digging around in planning documents: Aside from the spooky ghost children, there's a couple of other oddities in that image: an elderly Metroline double-decker; and what I believe may be East London Buses' 34264 (!!) - neither of which are likely to be visitors to the new bus station. LTs aplenty above - I think the one on the right is sporting an Arriva logo; and have LTs ever been spotted on the 285...? Still, the new bus station does look quite pretty, to my eyes at least. And finally, a plan-view of the new bus station layout, including an overlay of the existing kerb line (in grey) to show how the new layout compares with the old one (click on the image to open a larger version): We'll just have to wait and see when works on the site actually begin, but I would imagine it's not TfL's top priority at the moment. Looks like they're using a similar design that West Croydon Bus Station has - www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/18023931.changes-made-croydons-bus-routes---need-know/Hehe, I thought it looked familiar |
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Post by thekbq14 on Nov 20, 2020 17:51:46 GMT
With the coronavirus crisis taking hold, it's not surprising that there hasn't been much progress on this project lately, but it appears to still be moving forward. The tender process is still active, and the final permission for the new build - detailing the site's drainage strategy, which was a key condition of the overall planning approval that was granted last year - was given by Kingston Council in April. Things are no doubt still up in the air with coronavirus conditions, but for now, here's a couple of images of the new Cromwell Road Bus Station that I found while digging around in planning documents: Aside from the spooky ghost children, there's a couple of other oddities in that image: an elderly Metroline double-decker; and what I believe may be East London Buses' 34264 (!!) - neither of which are likely to be visitors to the new bus station. LTs aplenty above - I think the one on the right is sporting an Arriva logo; and have LTs ever been spotted on the 285...? Still, the new bus station does look quite pretty, to my eyes at least. And finally, a plan-view of the new bus station layout, including an overlay of the existing kerb line (in grey) to show how the new layout compares with the old one (click on the image to open a larger version): We'll just have to wait and see when works on the site actually begin, but I would imagine it's not TfL's top priority at the moment. Looks like they're using a similar design that West Croydon Bus Station has - www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/18023931.changes-made-croydons-bus-routes---need-know/Was about to say that it definitely looks based on the new West Croydon Bus Station especially the outdoor which Cromwell Road Bus Station already is and the brick building as well as the greenery and arches, which is not a bad thing as I personally like the new West Croydon Bus Station. Not sure though I'd say anything is Wrong with Cromwell Road Bus Station unlike the Old West Croydon bus station but I personally welcome any change, pretty sure there's some regeneration going at Kingston right?. Next for all we know we'll hear classical music as well at Cromwell Road Bus Station. |
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