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Post by Gellico on Apr 25, 2020 22:37:43 GMT
Orbital night routes need to serve something big, such as Heathrow for the N140 otherwise whats the point of them, if there isn't a large source of customers then really where is the main demand hence why most routes feed into Central. I have often wondered about Upminster not having a service but then again... where is the demand. The main black holes in the network are Upper Belvedere, Dagenham, Hornchurch & Ruislip which all lack central connections. A lot of routes that start outside of Z1 are somewhat pointless imo as everyone just changes (321 onto the 36) where simply extending something (N36 to Foot's Cray) would immediately have patronage from the already adequate N321 demand and then with the added attractiveness of a direct bus into Z1 is likely to stimulate demand. You just have to look at the last night buses into central and they're the busiest ones, the latter N1s & N136s into Z1 are full & standing, mainly with cleaners, builder etc. Changing & creating new routes for the shits n giggles is fun and all but there has to be a clear demands and purpose rather than simply "creating new links" - people that use night buses typically aren't the ones with mobility issues and walking over 400m to a bus isn't seen as anything more than a walk to the bus stop. Really if you live within 1.5 miles of a night bus that should be cool.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 26, 2020 4:33:18 GMT
Orbital night routes need to serve something big, such as Heathrow for the N140 otherwise whats the point of them, if there isn't a large source of customers then really where is the main demand hence why most routes feed into Central. I have often wondered about Upminster not having a service but then again... where is the demand. The main black holes in the network are Upper Belvedere, Dagenham, Hornchurch & Ruislip which all lack central connections. A lot of routes that start outside of Z1 are somewhat pointless imo as everyone just changes (321 onto the 36) where simply extending something (N36 to Foot's Cray) would immediately have patronage from the already adequate N321 demand and then with the added attractiveness of a direct bus into Z1 is likely to stimulate demand. You just have to look at the last night buses into central and they're the busiest ones, the latter N1s & N136s into Z1 are full & standing, mainly with cleaners, builder etc. Changing & creating new routes for the shits n giggles is fun and all but there has to be a clear demands and purpose rather than simply "creating new links" - people that use night buses typically aren't the ones with mobility issues and walking over 400m to a bus isn't seen as anything more than a walk to the bus stop. Really if you live within 1.5 miles of a night bus that should be cool. It all depends on the area - for example, the 37 loads quite well at night because it serves Cineworld & three nightime hotspots in Brixton, Clapham Common & Clapham Junction
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 26, 2020 9:44:39 GMT
MY 12 APRIL EMAIL TO ANDREW DISMORE REGARDING TEMPORARY EXTENTSION OF ROUTE N20 TO BARNET HOPSITAL, PLUS DISCUSSING ROUTE 384 CONSULTATION: "Further to your post on Twitter that TfL has temporarily extended night bus route N20 from Barnet Church to terminate at Barnet Hospital, for the benefit of the increasing number of hospital workers working night shifts at the moment, this is good news. "I wanted to ask if you might be able to ask TfL to consider making this extension of route N20 to Barnet Hospital permanent? As well as not serving the hospital, the N20 doesn't really penetrate High Barnet properly by terminating at Barnet Church, so a permanent extension to the hospital would also bring a wider residential area of High Barnet within walking distance of the night bus network. "The 307 runs as far as the hospital but only runs 24 hours on Friday and Saturday nights, and all weekend-only night services are currently suspended, including the 307. It would be good therefore, for the N20 to provide a night link between central London and Barnet Hospital and residential areas of High Barnet and during weeknights when the 307 does not run, and also to link with the night tube on weekends (once it resumes) as people would then be able to catch the N20 between High Barnet tube station and all stops as far as Barnet Hospital. "Also, I don't suppose you've heard anything more about the 384 route consultation, as the online consultation page has not produced any updates for over a year? I think this matter has rather got tied into the redevelopment of High Barnet station and the potential movement of the northbound Barnet Hill bus stop to make access from the station easier, which are still at the design stage. I know right now is obviously not the right time, but it would be good if you could perhaps ask TfL to update at some point regarding the 384 and pass this information on. I shall then be able to update everyone on the 'Save the 384 bus' Facebook page. "I am also planning to write some comments on the inconclusive consultation report for the 384 that came out in February 2019, as well as about the redevelopment proposals for High Barnet tube station. "For example, although easier access to northbound buses from the station is welcome, I think that it would be better to keep the existing northbound bus stop as well as adding a new bus stop further down the hill closer to the station access road, as otherwise there would be a very long gap between stops until Barnet Church, and the current northbound bus stop is also useful for people connecting with QE Girls' School and the surrounding roads. Prioritising the pedestrian crossing across Barnet Hill more in favour of pedestrians is also needed, as the lights take far too long to turn red currently. "I also think the designers are missing a trick by not planning to configure the road layout in the station grounds to allow at least one bus route to serve the station grounds themselves (the 384 northbound would be ideal for this as it is the only route that goes on to serve all the key destinations of Barnet High Street, The Spires and Barnet Hospital). Perhaps once I've written my comments on these matters I could share them with you, in case they would be useful in your discussions with TfL, etc?" I totally agree the N20 should serve Barnet Hospital full time, makes loads of residential links
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 26, 2020 9:47:30 GMT
The N37 was first night route i realised didn't run into central London. Was it the first?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2020 10:41:07 GMT
The N37 was first night route i realised didn't run into central London. Was it the first? No there is others
Route N99 which ran 1986- 1990
ROMFORD MARKET - Roneo Corner - Hornchurch - Upminster - Hall Lane - Avon Road - Upminster Park Estate - Front Lane - CRANHAM Moor Lane
Probably more.
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Post by redexpress on Apr 26, 2020 11:59:09 GMT
The N37 was first night route i realised didn't run into central London. Was it the first? No there is others
Route N99 which ran 1986- 1990
ROMFORD MARKET - Roneo Corner - Hornchurch - Upminster - Hall Lane - Avon Road - Upminster Park Estate - Front Lane - CRANHAM Moor Lane
Probably more.
There was also a short-lived N54 between Croydon and Banstead during 1986-87, and the N80, which was the Potters Bar staff bus made available to the public during 1983-86. There may well have been other staff buses made public.
All of these were irregular services with a handful of journeys per night. The N37 was arguably the first "regular" night bus route not to serve Zone 1, followed by N72 and N140.
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Post by Gellico on Apr 27, 2020 14:51:21 GMT
Orbital night routes need to serve something big, such as Heathrow for the N140 otherwise whats the point of them, if there isn't a large source of customers then really where is the main demand hence why most routes feed into Central. I have often wondered about Upminster not having a service but then again... where is the demand. The main black holes in the network are Upper Belvedere, Dagenham, Hornchurch & Ruislip which all lack central connections. A lot of routes that start outside of Z1 are somewhat pointless imo as everyone just changes (321 onto the 36) where simply extending something (N36 to Foot's Cray) would immediately have patronage from the already adequate N321 demand and then with the added attractiveness of a direct bus into Z1 is likely to stimulate demand. You just have to look at the last night buses into central and they're the busiest ones, the latter N1s & N136s into Z1 are full & standing, mainly with cleaners, builder etc. Changing & creating new routes for the shits n giggles is fun and all but there has to be a clear demands and purpose rather than simply "creating new links" - people that use night buses typically aren't the ones with mobility issues and walking over 400m to a bus isn't seen as anything more than a walk to the bus stop. Really if you live within 1.5 miles of a night bus that should be cool. It all depends on the area - for example, the 37 loads quite well at night because it serves Cineworld & three nightime hotspots in Brixton, Clapham Common & Clapham Junction Oh absolutely, then again the route does skim Z1 for pretty much it's entirety.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 27, 2020 19:19:18 GMT
I think some night routes should have trimming:
I think:
Route N65 should be withdrawn between Copt Guilders & Chessington WOA Route N205 should be withdrawn between Stratford City & Downsell Road
Those examples I have at the top of my head that should be trimmed there may be more
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 27, 2020 19:36:04 GMT
I do think with the low night bus loadings (less then 50k carried on the routes like the (N)213 and 365 plus many others like the 119, that maybe I know it sounds cruel to people that rely on them but maybe sunday to thursday night the standard night frequency should be every 60 mins now. That would be bake 4 journeys throughout the night if the day route is at 12 and the first around 5am. If not most night routes could cope with that now. Night buses probably carry 70% off the passengers on Friday and saturday night if not even more.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 27, 2020 19:49:04 GMT
I do think with the low night bus loadings (less then 50k carried on the routes like the (N)213 and 365 plus many others like the 119, that maybe I know it sounds cruel to people that rely on them but maybe sunday to thursday night the standard night frequency should be every 60 mins now. That would be bake 4 journeys throughout the night if the day route is at 12 and the first around 5am. If not most night routes could cope with that now. Night buses probably carry 70% off the passengers on Friday and saturday night if not even more. I think the N343 should be withdrawn between London Bridge & TSQ and rerouted to Shoreditch via Routes 343 & 242 & 35 and N381 gets withdrawn between Waterloo Station and Whitehall Horse Guards and rerouted to Trafalgar Square via old route N343 That sounds a bit better
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Post by greenboy on Apr 28, 2020 8:31:47 GMT
I think some night routes should have trimming: I think: Route N65 should be withdrawn between Copt Guilders & Chessington WOA Route N205 should be withdrawn between Stratford City & Downsell Road Those examples I have at the top of my head that should be trimmed there may be more It's only a few minutes from Copt Guilders to Chessington so not much to be gained and there's the problem of stand arrangements. The whole night service between Kingston and Chessington could well be at risk in the current climate.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 28, 2020 8:37:44 GMT
I do think with the low night bus loadings (less then 50k carried on the routes like the (N)213 and 365 plus many others like the 119, that maybe I know it sounds cruel to people that rely on them but maybe sunday to thursday night the standard night frequency should be every 60 mins now. That would be bake 4 journeys throughout the night if the day route is at 12 and the first around 5am. If not most night routes could cope with that now. Night buses probably carry 70% off the passengers on Friday and saturday night if not even more. Reductions to an hourly headway would be better than complete withdrawal and I wonder why that wasn't done with the N75.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2020 8:53:39 GMT
Hourly could probably mean just 2 buses needed on something like the N75 and you could easily make the last hour or so of the day service a little less freq to effectively speed the same number of journeys over the entire night.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 28, 2020 9:25:15 GMT
I think some night routes should have trimming: I think: Route N65 should be withdrawn between Copt Guilders & Chessington WOA Route N205 should be withdrawn between Stratford City & Downsell Road Those examples I have at the top of my head that should be trimmed there may be more It's only a few minutes from Copt Guilders to Chessington so not much to be gained and there's the problem of stand arrangements. The whole night service between Kingston and Chessington could well be at risk in the current climate. What do you mean by current climate? I'd much rather they sliced it at Hook Parade , run to the roundabout and turn around.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 28, 2020 10:39:17 GMT
Hourly could probably mean just 2 buses needed on something like the N75 and you could easily make the last hour or so of the day service a little less freq to effectively speed the same number of journeys over the entire night. The problem you potentially have dropping to hourly, especially at night when people don't want to hang around, is people may simply stay away from using it full stop and use more quicker alternatives instead
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