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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 6, 2020 9:43:43 GMT
If you are in a position where you live somewhere that has a good bus service then use that but people shouldn't be judged if that doesn't apply to them and for many that won't apply. It's easy for people who live in London to say "Well just use the bus" (I Know you don't live in London just using that as an example) but the fact remains bus services out of the city centres just aren't great. Yes you could say that if more people used the services then you could argue that these services would get better investment but people shouldn't work their lives around these bus services. Got a friend who lives in a village just outside of Buckingham so this isn't somewhere a million of miles away from London and the service there is one bus a day on either direction just on a Tuesday that's awful. I'm not judging people who don't have a good bus service - there are areas of my home town that don't have convenient access to a bus service at all. If I have any judgement, it is towards those who do have a good bus (or tram or train) service - but go by car instead. I think better encouragement could be implementing bus lanes all over London in areas that are particularly traffic ridden - and that if there is a sight of a bus people may find it quicker to take the bus. If you then up the fares to £1.70 and charge children 20p you would have a slight increase that could then mean you work around fundamentals such as upgrading service quality by maybe adding usb ports, not WiFi but really good data signal, better maintained buses and most importantly a reliable service you'll have many people using the bus.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 6, 2020 10:04:49 GMT
The issues arise when public transport is a perfectly good option but people choose to use a car instead. In many cases this has caused services to decline to the point where they are no longer viable to operate. In the UK, cars are expensive to buy - hence they are less available to people in low incomes. However the operating costs of a car journey are relatively inexpensive - so for those who can afford to buy one in the first place, there is a stronger incentive to choose a car journey over public transport (and sometimes over walking/cycling). This creates the traffic problems that disadvantage us all. Germany has a higher car ownership rate per household, but Germans actually use their cars less - in fact one luxury car manufacturer once ran an ad which showed a suited businessman boarding a tram, the ad read something like "The man who is smart enough to own a [xxx] is smart enough to know when not to use it". Why can't we have that sort of attitude here? If you are in a position where you live somewhere that has a good bus service then use that but people shouldn't be judged if that doesn't apply to them and for many that won't apply. It's easy for people who live in London to say "Well just use the bus" (I Know you don't live in London just using that as an example) but the fact remains bus services out of the city centres just aren't great. Yes you could say that if more people used the services then you could argue that these services would get better investment but people shouldn't work their lives around these bus services. Got a friend who lives in a village just outside of Buckingham so this isn't somewhere a million of miles away from London and the service there is one bus a day on either direction just on a Tuesday that's awful. That defeats the whole purpose of reducing congestion and increasing public transport usage. In London, despite the cuts, the core network is excellent so unless your doing a cross London jaunt (say Enfield to Croydon), it should be encouraged to partake your journey by public transport rather than a car - it has nothing to do with working your lives around the bus as many bus services in London are very frequent anyway. The example of the route serving your mates village is down to such routes becoming less and less financially viable over the years because outside of London, the car is king in many places. If more people use the service, it would likely see an increase.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 6, 2020 10:07:49 GMT
If you are in a position where you live somewhere that has a good bus service then use that but people shouldn't be judged if that doesn't apply to them and for many that won't apply. It's easy for people who live in London to say "Well just use the bus" (I Know you don't live in London just using that as an example) but the fact remains bus services out of the city centres just aren't great. Yes you could say that if more people used the services then you could argue that these services would get better investment but people shouldn't work their lives around these bus services. Got a friend who lives in a village just outside of Buckingham so this isn't somewhere a million of miles away from London and the service there is one bus a day on either direction just on a Tuesday that's awful. That defeats the whole purpose of reducing congestion and increasing public transport usage. In London, despite the cuts, the core network is excellent so unless your doing a cross London jaunt (say Enfield to Croydon), it should be encouraged to partake your journey by public transport rather than a car - it has nothing to do with working your lives around the bus as many bus services in London are very frequent anyway. The example of the route serving your mates village is down to such routes becoming less and less financially viable over the years because outside of London, the car is king in many places. If more people use the service, it would likely see an increase. Enfield to Croydon is easily viable by train because there are normally fast services as it is to East Croydon. You catch a Great Northern from Enfield Chase to Finsbury Park and then a Thameslink to Croydon.
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Post by george on Jul 6, 2020 10:36:38 GMT
If you are in a position where you live somewhere that has a good bus service then use that but people shouldn't be judged if that doesn't apply to them and for many that won't apply. It's easy for people who live in London to say "Well just use the bus" (I Know you don't live in London just using that as an example) but the fact remains bus services out of the city centres just aren't great. Yes you could say that if more people used the services then you could argue that these services would get better investment but people shouldn't work their lives around these bus services. Got a friend who lives in a village just outside of Buckingham so this isn't somewhere a million of miles away from London and the service there is one bus a day on either direction just on a Tuesday that's awful. That defeats the whole purpose of reducing congestion and increasing public transport usage. In London, despite the cuts, the core network is excellent so unless your doing a cross London jaunt (say Enfield to Croydon), it should be encouraged to partake your journey by public transport rather than a car - it has nothing to do with working your lives around the bus as many bus services in London are very frequent anyway. The example of the route serving your mates village is down to such routes becoming less and less financially viable over the years because outside of London, the car is king in many places. If more people use the service, it would likely see an increase. and that's exactly the reason I haven't once used London as example of a place that has bad bus services. At the moment I don't drive as I live in a city that has excellent services and have the benefit of having free travel as well. If I lived in a rural area then I'm afraid to say that I probably would drive. I'm not here to judge anyone on the option they choose at the end of the day it's their choice and some people might have very good reasons why a car is better for them over using public transport.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2020 11:02:42 GMT
I disagree with the London is getting busier congestion etc. We have had this so much times before. But London is getting busier partly because it has been draining growth from other parts of the country . There are some roads 10 years ago now that doesn't even have traffic levels, while others are self inflicted by councils doing anti-car measures. For example, if you take Forest Rd/Ferry Lane in the 1990's the traffic was horrendous, now most of that traffic in the AM/PM peak has gone, even the bus lane that was put in after Blackhorse Rd station hasn't been needed that much as it used to. Whilst other places like Hoe St and Lea Bridge Rd that saw a drop in peak traffic has risen due to closing side roads, banned turns for cycling warfare. End of the day this has not helped bus passengers at all. Most of the traffic that buses used to have in Lea Bridge Rd which was a prime reason for the 38 being cut back to Clapton Pond. This started to fall and was manageable over the years, but since the mini Holland fettling, and bus lane removal, it had screwed over the 48, 55 and 56. Your point at what Thatcher said was what the general public thought back then. I do not know if you were born when Thatcher was around, but I clearly remember the times even before she said that, people used to say that all the time. I would rather sit in a car hours stuck in traffic than been sat in a bus hours stuck in traffic. The end reality is no matter how you put it, the vast majority of journeys in London, I can do quicker by car than by bus, regardless of traffic. Also who in their right mind would want to sit hours in a bus, car or any other vehicle stuck in traffic. People who generally do not drive a car or do not have one would come up with these statements as they cannot truly experience the flip side of the coin. I used to say these things before I passed by test 23 years ago. The way things are going and the way corporate companies get greedy and people get lazy, the future is likely to be driverless pods. It isn't public transport being demonised, it is common sense. I am sorry, but it doesn't take a genius not to realise that if someone had a virus like Covid 19 riding in a bus, train, taxi etc or whatever, even if it was a car share program would spread it. There is not much things to prevent it spreading. You can disagree about London getting more congested all you like but there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise - many studies into congestion and average speed vehicles actually travel will show you that congestion has continually risen and average speeds fallen. In my own area, roads have got much busier over the years and I know this because I remember all the times from the 90's when moving around Lambeth was much painless than now. Anti car measures are needed I'm afraid if you are to increase transport usage - the issue is the wrong anti car measures are being implemented. For example, removing bus lanes for cycle lanes is a poor move which discourages transport use whilst also narrowing roads, closing short cuts like what Lambeth have recently done is another poor move which merely shoves traffic onto the main roads making them more congested. Just because I don't drive a car has absolutely nothing to do with it - had I enough money, I'd of finished my lessons ages ago and passed but equally, it's clearly obvious that for short hops through London, the car should not be the go to choice. Well in certain areas congestion would go up, how many traffic lights are still being installed in London. Far too many traffic lights, then there is the never ending amount of roadworks with temporary traffic lights, zebra crossings, altered road layouts, closed side roads. As you have mentioned removing bus lanes for cycle lanes is pointless, and it set to alienate more.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 6, 2020 11:04:54 GMT
That defeats the whole purpose of reducing congestion and increasing public transport usage. In London, despite the cuts, the core network is excellent so unless your doing a cross London jaunt (say Enfield to Croydon), it should be encouraged to partake your journey by public transport rather than a car - it has nothing to do with working your lives around the bus as many bus services in London are very frequent anyway. The example of the route serving your mates village is down to such routes becoming less and less financially viable over the years because outside of London, the car is king in many places. If more people use the service, it would likely see an increase. and that's exactly the reason I haven't once used London as example of a place that has bad bus services. At the moment I don't drive as I live in a city that has excellent services and have the benefit of having free travel as well. If I lived in a rural area then I'm afraid to say that I probably would drive. I'm not here to judge anyone on the option they choose at the end of the day it's their choice and some people might have very good reasons why a car is better for them over using public transport. Out in rural areas, yes bus use may not be as present but from areas I've been to whether it be family or holidays. I once went up to Harrogate for the weekend, caught a train to Leeds and then caught the 36. The amount of effort put in was immaculate and their seats are leather, they have a library at the back end generally just a really good experience and usage between Ripon + Harrogate is usually fairly scarce. On the other hand, I have family who live in a village in the middle of North Yorkshire. They have a local bus that comes 3-4 times a day and in 2015 I went into the town centre and the bus was rammed to my kneecaps! It most certainly has usage present and this bus was no longer than the buses that go on the W5 and given the area is legitimately just countryside!
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2020 11:08:36 GMT
There's been talk recently which is better car or public transport but I don't think it should be which is better it should be what is more suitable for your needs. If you live in a city then choosing to go on a bus would be good for you because you have the luxury of a frequent service but if you live outside in the countryside miles away from anywhere then getting public transport will be difficult so there a car would be better. It really isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. The issues arise when public transport is a perfectly good option but people choose to use a car instead. In many cases this has caused services to decline to the point where they are no longer viable to operate. In the UK, cars are expensive to buy - hence they are less available to people in low incomes. However the operating costs of a car journey are relatively inexpensive - so for those who can afford to buy one in the first place, there is a stronger incentive to choose a car journey over public transport (and sometimes over walking/cycling). This creates the traffic problems that disadvantage us all. Germany has a higher car ownership rate per household, but Germans actually use their cars less - in fact one luxury car manufacturer once ran an ad which showed a suited businessman boarding a tram, the ad read something like "The man who is smart enough to own a [xxx] is smart enough to know when not to use it". Why can't we have that sort of attitude here? I would not say cars are expensive to buy, they are very cheap in the UK. If you go to some other countries around the world, the same type of cars used sometimes fetch 10 times the price they are sold here for. Plenty cheap used cars under £1000k can be found. I think the main problem is the insurance for some, that is the expensive part of it. Hasn't been helped over the years by crash for cash and loads of bogus whiplash claims. It also depends on how the public transport options are comparable in Germany. It hasn't helped people at all in London, with many bus routes shortened either.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2020 11:12:12 GMT
I'm not judging people who don't have a good bus service - there are areas of my home town that don't have convenient access to a bus service at all. If I have any judgement, it is towards those who do have a good bus (or tram or train) service - but go by car instead. I think better encouragement could be implementing bus lanes all over London in areas that are particularly traffic ridden - and that if there is a sight of a bus people may find it quicker to take the bus. If you then up the fares to £1.70 and charge children 20p you would have a slight increase that could then mean you work around fundamentals such as upgrading service quality by maybe adding usb ports, not WiFi but really good data signal, better maintained buses and most importantly a reliable service you'll have many people using the bus. The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in London that a lot of the congestion at peak times is not private car traffic which people keep saying here. A lot of it is now mini-cabs (uber) and delivery vehicles. If public transport was that good in London then why has there been such an upsurge in travel modes as uber.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 6, 2020 11:22:31 GMT
and that's exactly the reason I haven't once used London as example of a place that has bad bus services. At the moment I don't drive as I live in a city that has excellent services and have the benefit of having free travel as well. If I lived in a rural area then I'm afraid to say that I probably would drive. I'm not here to judge anyone on the option they choose at the end of the day it's their choice and some people might have very good reasons why a car is better for them over using public transport. Out in rural areas, yes bus use may not be as present but from areas I've been to whether it be family or holidays. I once went up to Harrogate for the weekend, caught a train to Leeds and then caught the 36. The amount of effort put in was immaculate and their seats are leather, they have a library at the back end generally just a really good experience and usage between Ripon + Harrogate is usually fairly scarce. On the other hand, I have family who live in a village in the middle of North Yorkshire. They have a local bus that comes 3-4 times a day and in 2015 I went into the town centre and the bus was rammed to my kneecaps! It most certainly has usage present and this bus was no longer than the buses that go on the W5 and given the area is legitimately just countryside! I've used the Transdev 36 between Leeds and Harrogate before and it's a great example of what can be achieved and I believe usage has increased significantly, I feel sorry for operators like this who can only watch as all their good work is undone by the effects of Covid-19.
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Post by rif153 on Jul 6, 2020 12:06:18 GMT
If you are in a position where you live somewhere that has a good bus service then use that but people shouldn't be judged if that doesn't apply to them and for many that won't apply. It's easy for people who live in London to say "Well just use the bus" (I Know you don't live in London just using that as an example) but the fact remains bus services out of the city centres just aren't great. Yes you could say that if more people used the services then you could argue that these services would get better investment but people shouldn't work their lives around these bus services. Got a friend who lives in a village just outside of Buckingham so this isn't somewhere a million of miles away from London and the service there is one bus a day on either direction just on a Tuesday that's awful. That defeats the whole purpose of reducing congestion and increasing public transport usage. In London, despite the cuts, the core network is excellent so unless your doing a cross London jaunt (say Enfield to Croydon), it should be encouraged to partake your journey by public transport rather than a car - it has nothing to do with working your lives around the bus as many bus services in London are very frequent anyway. The example of the route serving your mates village is down to such routes becoming less and less financially viable over the years because outside of London, the car is king in many places. If more people use the service, it would likely see an increase. In London we have a very good public transport for the most part which minimises the need to drive and I chose public transport over driving because its greener and can be faster, certainly in the case of using a train over driving. However, outside of London bus deregulation has just lead to bus routes being in terminal decline sadly with services being relentlessly slashed because they aren't profitable which is a shame, whilst I don't think a car is an essential in London I think it is in the shires.
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Post by rif153 on Jul 6, 2020 12:13:35 GMT
I think better encouragement could be implementing bus lanes all over London in areas that are particularly traffic ridden - and that if there is a sight of a bus people may find it quicker to take the bus. If you then up the fares to £1.70 and charge children 20p you would have a slight increase that could then mean you work around fundamentals such as upgrading service quality by maybe adding usb ports, not WiFi but really good data signal, better maintained buses and most importantly a reliable service you'll have many people using the bus. The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in London that a lot of the congestion at peak times is not private car traffic which people keep saying here. A lot of it is now mini-cabs (uber) and delivery vehicles. If public transport was that good in London then why has there been such an upsurge in travel modes as uber. The convenience of a door to door service provided by Uber is very popular which is precisely why I think demand responsive buses are the future. A reason for the growth in popularity of Uber is because of its convenience in getting between places which aren't connected by public transport or people don't want to change so instead opt for a direct service. The main flaw of our transport network is the lack of fast radial connections, there are some provided by rail but not many and radial bus routes are popular but often quite slow which is why I'm all in favour of looking at creating better radial connections. I appreciate this isn't everyone's experience but my friends who use Uber generally do so for trips to get home from a town where there is no direct public transport link.
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 6, 2020 12:33:55 GMT
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in London that a lot of the congestion at peak times is not private car traffic which people keep saying here. A lot of it is now mini-cabs (uber) and delivery vehicles. If public transport was that good in London then why has there been such an upsurge in travel modes as uber. The convenience of a door to door service provided by Uber is very popular which is precisely why I think demand responsive buses are the future. A reason for the growth in popularity of Uber is because of its convenience in getting between places which aren't connected by public transport or people don't want to change so instead opt for a direct service. The main flaw of our transport network is the lack of fast radial connections, there are some provided by rail but not many and radial bus routes are popular but often quite slow which is why I'm all in favour of looking at creating better radial connections. I appreciate this isn't everyone's experience but my friends who use Uber generally do so for trips to get home from a town where there is no direct public transport link. I agree that demand-responsive bus services can be a good solution in areas where it is difficult to meet transport need with conventional bus services. However they do need to be subsidised, it is nigh-on impossible for such a service to be commercial. Lincolnshire has a good system with its Call-Connect minibuses connecting with the core interurban bus network at transport hubs as well as providing trips into local towns. Go-Coach has started a similar system around Sevenoaks. The good thing about these two is that they don't rely on an app, they can be booked by telephone which makes them accessible to older people who are more likely to have a need for such a service. Indeed I believe with Go-Coach that you can just walk into their office at Sevenoaks Bus Station and they will get you away as soon as they can.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 6, 2020 12:54:06 GMT
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in London that a lot of the congestion at peak times is not private car traffic which people keep saying here. A lot of it is now mini-cabs (uber) and delivery vehicles. If public transport was that good in London then why has there been such an upsurge in travel modes as uber. The convenience of a door to door service provided by Uber is very popular which is precisely why I think demand responsive buses are the future. A reason for the growth in popularity of Uber is because of its convenience in getting between places which aren't connected by public transport or people don't want to change so instead opt for a direct service. The main flaw of our transport network is the lack of fast radial connections, there are some provided by rail but not many and radial bus routes are popular but often quite slow which is why I'm all in favour of looking at creating better radial connections. I appreciate this isn't everyone's experience but my friends who use Uber generally do so for trips to get home from a town where there is no direct public transport link. Though UBER could be defeated in the "night club" so to speak market for people finishing their nights out. There's a lot of traffic in dense night times areas like Shoreditch and if buses can be seen as faster then people would make the switch where there's bus lanes and maybe upgrades such as USB, WiFi for those on low income and cleaner buses! Responsive bus systems are good in areas so to speak close to London where local bus services are not nearly as present and I think if there were system such as the ones that the R routes provide and the HGS routes, I think we'd be doing well. Many houses are within a 400 metre radius of a bus, the road I grew up on was close but far, the road was incredibly long and windy! I do agree about these radial routes. It would be nice if maybe we had more routes using the NC like the 112, 232 that just span around it and would be very easy for journeys such as those with bus priorities as appropriate. I think a way of speeding up journey times a bit isn't always having routes taking slip roads unless there is like a Tesco, shopping centre or a powerleague or something. London has dial a ride and that with people obviously taking to exercise more, people may not mind so much walking for a bus if it means they can rack up their 10k which I think is important. Responsive bus systems should only be used though in areas which don't have nearly as good buses and in fact could see the demise of some bus routes. Be good in areas that the R5/10 serve.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 6, 2020 13:23:21 GMT
I think better encouragement could be implementing bus lanes all over London in areas that are particularly traffic ridden - and that if there is a sight of a bus people may find it quicker to take the bus. If you then up the fares to £1.70 and charge children 20p you would have a slight increase that could then mean you work around fundamentals such as upgrading service quality by maybe adding usb ports, not WiFi but really good data signal, better maintained buses and most importantly a reliable service you'll have many people using the bus. The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in London that a lot of the congestion at peak times is not private car traffic which people keep saying here. A lot of it is now mini-cabs (uber) and delivery vehicles. If public transport was that good in London then why has there been such an upsurge in travel modes as uber. Because other factors such as congestion are suppressing how good the network is - yes mini cabs & delivery vehicles have a part to play but to simply say that private car traffic has no cause or to downplay it is missing the facts.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 6, 2020 13:35:03 GMT
No quoting to make it easier to read : but I’m increasingly of the opinion that bus routes that are ‘wiggly’ are becoming increasingly unattractive (eg, if I’m going to Sutton from Croydon on the 154, I do not want to waste time going through the Roundshaw Estate - it does not apply to obvious U-shaped routes like the 61), and that demand responsive bus services should I think be seriously considered to replace some of the less frequent services such as 146, R5/R10 etc
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