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Post by Pilot on Aug 6, 2020 7:56:25 GMT
TFL does not have capacity to transport school kids whether paid or free...every route should have essentially exclusive school bus to not kill the actual service and at the same time make actual bus service more human-like for adult passengers. Some of the school buses TFL have literally drive empty as school kids are simply not interested to get on it, meanwhile it rewards company with the highest premium per mile while normal services get killed due to overcrowding.
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Post by Green Kitten on Aug 6, 2020 8:08:10 GMT
One of these days we just need to make a ‘should travel be free for kids’ thread (if there isn’t already) as the debate just seems to pop up every couple of weeks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 8:26:06 GMT
I understand schools have league tables but acting like kids from a poorer background can’t work hard and achieve is ridiculous. If they want a better future they will work hard regardless of their education. I have cousins who have gone to the best schools and still live in their parents houses with little career prospects and friends who have worked hard. It all depends on the person and their work ethic, it’s not just about league tables. If you expect your children to succeed because you send them to an expensive school you are naive, if they don’t want to work it won’t matter if you spend thousands or nothing. You clearly don’t understand what a fixed income means but parents are not on them. What exactly have children done to deserve free travel? They don’t contribute to the economy whereas the average OAP has contributed 40+ years to it. I advocate for responsible affordable fares for every under 18 across the country but free fares are just fiscally irresponsible in the financial climate and I don’t see them coming back for many years. There is nothing wrong with watching tv at night, however I am tired of people pleading poverty whilst owning 60 inch TVs with £100 a month sky package, Netflix, amazon prime, Disney+ all whilst playing on brand new phones and iPads, it’s complete bs. I’ve grown up in a poor family and whilst we had a telewest package we went without flashy gifts at birthdays or Christmas, holidays or expensive trips out all so my parents could support us and do you know what it made me appreciate everything I have now. Children today act so entitled because they expect everything without true understanding of the sacrifice that comes with it. I’d even go as far as to say free travel has ruined an entire generation of children and teenagers. As the saying goes charity begins at home and if those poorer people can’t be bothered to help themselves why should I give to jots about them. Your tangent about an island means nothing because it is completely nonsensical, they can’t miss what they don’t have. IF schools near the top of league tables aren't as good as they're made out then why are league tables even publicised? Why do students naturally go to better Unis following education there? Why do these students then at the better Uni often make the better discoveries? An OAP has contributed 40+ years, and most children will contribute too once they've finished education won't they? When everyone who is currently middle aged is old and grey it'll be this generation that everyone is attacking for free travel will be bring the economy up and working to look after them. I've not seen many people with 60 inch TVs and pleading poverty. I've also not seen any children act entitled, most uproar about removing free travel has actually come from parents and those actually paying the fares as opposed to the children themselves. Where exactly do you claim that people who are already struggling to manage get the cash for bus fares from? If you provide a solution that works in the climate where many parents have been made redundant and are extremely unlikely to get a job for at least the next 6 months then I might agree with you. Every single person has a different lifestyle and you do not know the sacrifices they are already making to save money, they do not need yet another hardship placed on them. My point about the island is, how would you react if the people on the island started screaming that you needed your internet services removed because they don't have them? I just can’t believe your pompous antiquated view point. There is no denying that some children who go to better schools can do better but so can children who go to poorer schools. It doesn’t matter about their background, it’s their drive to succeed that matters. You’re just awful for dismissing the poorer children just because they don’t go to fancy schools high up in league tables. It starts with parents encouraging their children to do better, to make better choices and to work hard. God help your children if they don’t meet your clearly messed up expectations for them. People like you are exactly why poorer communities feel ignored and like they are the problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 8:30:59 GMT
TFL does not have capacity to transport school kids whether paid or free...every route should have essentially exclusive school bus to not kill the actual service and at the same time make actual bus service more human-like for adult passengers. Some of the school buses TFL have literally drive empty as school kids are simply not interested to get on it, meanwhile it rewards company with the highest premium per mile while normal services get killed due to overcrowding. This is very true with my local school route 678! You see at least 2 of the 4 buses empty but the single decker 325 following the same route rammed! Wonder if its a status's thing and don't want to be seen on the school route. |
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 6, 2020 9:04:11 GMT
TFL does not have capacity to transport school kids whether paid or free...every route should have essentially exclusive school bus to not kill the actual service and at the same time make actual bus service more human-like for adult passengers. Some of the school buses TFL have literally drive empty as school kids are simply not interested to get on it, meanwhile it rewards company with the highest premium per mile while normal services get killed due to overcrowding. This is very true with my local school route 678! You see at least 2 of the 4 buses empty but the single decker 325 following the same route rammed! Wonder if its a status's thing and don't want to be seen on the school route. Make the 6xx school routes free but everything else chargeable - we'll soon see who cares about status then! Seriously though, an expanded network of dedicated free school routes could be a way round the issues. Although I would prefer all bus travel to remain free for children attending school or college full time. |
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Post by fg49 on Aug 6, 2020 9:27:38 GMT
IF schools near the top of league tables aren't as good as they're made out then why are league tables even publicised? Why do students naturally go to better Unis following education there? Why do these students then at the better Uni often make the better discoveries? An OAP has contributed 40+ years, and most children will contribute too once they've finished education won't they? When everyone who is currently middle aged is old and grey it'll be this generation that everyone is attacking for free travel will be bring the economy up and working to look after them. I've not seen many people with 60 inch TVs and pleading poverty. I've also not seen any children act entitled, most uproar about removing free travel has actually come from parents and those actually paying the fares as opposed to the children themselves. Where exactly do you claim that people who are already struggling to manage get the cash for bus fares from? If you provide a solution that works in the climate where many parents have been made redundant and are extremely unlikely to get a job for at least the next 6 months then I might agree with you. Every single person has a different lifestyle and you do not know the sacrifices they are already making to save money, they do not need yet another hardship placed on them. My point about the island is, how would you react if the people on the island started screaming that you needed your internet services removed because they don't have them? I just can’t believe your pompous antiquated view point. There is no denying that some children who go to better schools can do better but so can children who go to poorer schools. It doesn’t matter about their background, it’s their drive to succeed that matters. You’re just awful for dismissing the poorer children just because they don’t go to fancy schools high up in league tables. It starts with parents encouraging their children to do better, to make better choices and to work hard. God help your children if they don’t meet your clearly messed up expectations for them. People like you are exactly why poorer communities feel ignored and like they are the problem. Quite bold of you to say these things as you previously stated you grew up in a ‘poor family’... yet you have these views ‘As the saying goes charity begins at home and if those poorer people can’t be bothered to help themselves why should I give to jots about them.’ Seems like you have lost touch with where you came from. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 9:49:17 GMT
I just can’t believe your pompous antiquated view point. There is no denying that some children who go to better schools can do better but so can children who go to poorer schools. It doesn’t matter about their background, it’s their drive to succeed that matters. You’re just awful for dismissing the poorer children just because they don’t go to fancy schools high up in league tables. It starts with parents encouraging their children to do better, to make better choices and to work hard. God help your children if they don’t meet your clearly messed up expectations for them. People like you are exactly why poorer communities feel ignored and like they are the problem. Quite bold of you to say these things as you previously stated you grew up in a ‘poor family’... yet you have these views ‘As the saying goes charity begins at home and if those poorer people can’t be bothered to help themselves why should I give to jots about them.’ Seems like you have lost touch with where you came from. Not at all but I grew beyond that poorer background because I worked for a better life. I took responsibility for myself and didn’t allow my poorer background to affect my future which is my point of charity begins at home, responsibility starts at home and if these parents can’t do it why should anyone else have to take responsibility for them. My parents didn’t take benefits, other than child tax credits, and I turned out well. I didn’t go to the best schools, I didn’t have everything but I worked for all that I have. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 6, 2020 9:56:30 GMT
Not all parents , carers etc do spend loads of money and some are on much lower incomes now, perhaps even under threat of being made redundant. My kids certainly don’t get bought top of the range of anything. Hand me downs and holidays in the UK. Because we can’t afford to go abroad, Of course we budget for cost of sending the kids to school. But it is something I would rather , a) like to be free or b) not bother sending them by bus anymore because we could put that £1k towards home improvements or something else. Choice of schools comes into play as well. In Kent there is the 11+ still. So you want them to pass this, then it means the going to a school perhaps further away. Hence, needing to travel by bus , if it were not to impinge on parents working day. I take it that you possibly earn less than £20k a year by your comments of being hard off. Even still, the abolition of free travel would have a salary threshold as it was before. People seem to forget that there was free travel before, just that it has been a free for all for everyone and is not needed. It was purely a "vote winner" imo |
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Post by rif153 on Aug 6, 2020 10:40:25 GMT
Fare problems need to at some point need to be addressed. What's happened with free travel is that people have used the system to instead of walking take the bus. It's not a mentality that will get us to solve problems like obesity and more fundamental bus problems like overcrowding and anti social behaviour. I'll use the 143 as an example When you look at the fundamental elements of bus services such as it being reliable and is generally pleasant is something many routes achieve however, the 143 unfortunately does not tick these boxes for many reasons. The route just passes through an eternity of schools. What surprises me is even after the 611 is going is how the people behind TFL expect people will wanna take a 112. I suspect people will ram the 143 instead. The 112 is not close to the school, which imo should be a focus point of becoming a school route. The 112 was a terrible example of a route to try extend to North Finchley due to its: - Heavy reliance on the A406 which the Madeley Road reroute will only worsen due to it not serving Ealing Common & Ealing Broadway High Street, as well as now preventing deckers. The 112 & 232 both have heavy reliance on the A406 which is why more often than not people choose to use the 143. The only children I ever see use the 232 are CCF, so how on earth will people choose to walk 10 or so minutes to the A406 which is dirty and polluted? All of the 112, 143 & 232 have got reliability issues already, so why worsen them? The 112, sure will help the 232 out but does it really? Like I've mentioned, the 232 could do with Double Deckers and be withdrawn between St Raphael's North and St Raphael's to ensure it can take deckers. It may seem like I'm rambling on a bit, but truthfully school kids are lazy so why would they walk when they can ram a 143. Both the 143 & 232 need double deckers, the 143 has got horrendous problems with overcrowding and imo could definitely be at risk post COVID due to its following of the 326 between Finchley Central Station & Brent Cross and the 125 between Long Lane & Hendon, The Quadrant. With the loss of the round the corner link at Stephens House which could lead to children ramming onto a 143 at Finchley Central and also ramming onto 13s and 460s for those who live on Regents Park Road. With an introduction of a cheap fare scheme where children pay 20p for a bus ride we could start to see changes in income for tfl and in overcrowding. However, likely the anti social element won't change. A lot of school children (not all but the minority) can be, put bluntly obnoxious. This is an issue across the capital and needs to be addressed. Secondary schools usually have some form of rivalry, forcing children into a bus stop where other rival school children are on a busy carriageway with heavy traffic and 2 unreliable bus routes would make me feel uncomfortable. Normally children on the 143 can be loud, in trips to and from family I do pick up the "oh this driver threatened to call the police today because so and so were shouting super loudly and were fighting" I don't think it really is good leaving rival schools at the same bus stop as this could lead to fights. The other fundamental I highlighted was reliability. With the 143 at the moment, it is very late to bus stops due to the heavy influx of schools it serves. With less children boarding the bus due to social distancing presumably until next spring and with fares in place, could we see a shift from the bus to walking and buses becoming more reliable? The answer to this could only be told when we go back. And I'm sure it's a similar story with the 31 & C11. So for whoever thought it was a good idea to reroute the 143 to Mill Hill (I think it was ADH45258) just remember that as soon as you do that you put tonnes more pressure on other routes and you end up choking the 143. Many people use the route from Brent Cross very regularly and it carries incredibly good loadings off peak, so why change it? I think its absurd to try to get lots of students to cram onto single decker buses without any extras. The very purpose of school routes is to provide capacity to get children to school and plenty of regular routes are crammed during school, locally to me the E8. When the changes to the 112 go ahead at the end of the month it will mean that the route can no longer use double deckers so the extension and rerouting will make overcrowding on the route even worse - which is why I've suggested on here that there should be some DD extras on the 112, or for that matter on the 232. If free travel for under 18s is withdrawn as it looks it will be (bar a very successful campaign to stop it) then that may mean that overcrowding on routes at school hours is no longer as much of a problem as it currently is, locally to me routes would be around 3 quarters full during the morning peak, possibly even more if all school children stopped using the buses. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 6, 2020 11:22:37 GMT
IF schools near the top of league tables aren't as good as they're made out then why are league tables even publicised? Why do students naturally go to better Unis following education there? Why do these students then at the better Uni often make the better discoveries? An OAP has contributed 40+ years, and most children will contribute too once they've finished education won't they? When everyone who is currently middle aged is old and grey it'll be this generation that everyone is attacking for free travel will be bring the economy up and working to look after them. I've not seen many people with 60 inch TVs and pleading poverty. I've also not seen any children act entitled, most uproar about removing free travel has actually come from parents and those actually paying the fares as opposed to the children themselves. Where exactly do you claim that people who are already struggling to manage get the cash for bus fares from? If you provide a solution that works in the climate where many parents have been made redundant and are extremely unlikely to get a job for at least the next 6 months then I might agree with you. Every single person has a different lifestyle and you do not know the sacrifices they are already making to save money, they do not need yet another hardship placed on them. My point about the island is, how would you react if the people on the island started screaming that you needed your internet services removed because they don't have them? I just can’t believe your pompous antiquated view point. There is no denying that some children who go to better schools can do better but so can children who go to poorer schools. It doesn’t matter about their background, it’s their drive to succeed that matters. You’re just awful for dismissing the poorer children just because they don’t go to fancy schools high up in league tables. It starts with parents encouraging their children to do better, to make better choices and to work hard. God help your children if they don’t meet your clearly messed up expectations for them. People like you are exactly why poorer communities feel ignored and like they are the problem. I don't know what basis you have to make this statement. I work in Higher education collaborating with Universities such as Westminster, Queen Marys and UCL as well as many schools found towards the bottom of local league tables to investigate and reduce the attainment gap. There is no denying at all that schools near the top of the league tables do have students who go far and something a lot more obvious is schools near the bottom of league tables almost constantly have underachieving students. I find it funny you are calling me awful for just stating what is the truth and what my whole job is focussed on fixing at the moment so I think I am qualified to speak on this matter. I should really be calling you awful for just effectively saying "well the school doesn't matter its the kids who don't work hard enough" when the fact is they do and they are simply being let down by a community where people who pay for the bus get jealous of children going for free and in turn want them to be disadvantaged by always going to schools close to them. A school near the bottom of the league tables will struggle recruiting strong teachers for stable periods of time and children will never flourish unless they get a good teacher - this is the black and blue of it. Your argument of a child working by themselves to improve it can all be applied here however why should a child from a poorer community need to work harder while those from richer communities get all of this handed to them on a plate? Maybe I'm an awful person for working in this field to try my best to get all the disadvantaged in our community the chance that they truly deserve and I take it I am also an awful person for wanting children to have free travel so that they can have a childhood. It doesn't matter what sort of childhood we had, that's fine if we enjoyed it or not. It doesn't matter. What matters now is that the young get the childhood that the society is able to provide them, they deserve every right to have a childhood that might have been better than our own and we should not go out of our way to ruin it for them. They are our future whether people like it or not, they do deserve to be cared for by the community because in the future they will be the ones looking after everyone when they are unable to work anymore. The attainment gap that you constantly seem to just say can be solved by "children working hard" is just not the case, it is just wrong and that is not what should be expected of children either. Once again sorry that I am an awful person and actually care about the younger people in our community. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 11:53:59 GMT
I just can’t believe your pompous antiquated view point. There is no denying that some children who go to better schools can do better but so can children who go to poorer schools. It doesn’t matter about their background, it’s their drive to succeed that matters. You’re just awful for dismissing the poorer children just because they don’t go to fancy schools high up in league tables. It starts with parents encouraging their children to do better, to make better choices and to work hard. God help your children if they don’t meet your clearly messed up expectations for them. People like you are exactly why poorer communities feel ignored and like they are the problem. I don't know what basis you have to make this statement. I work in Higher education collaborating with Universities such as Westminster, Queen Marys and UCL as well as many schools found towards the bottom of local league tables to investigate and reduce the attainment gap. There is no denying at all that schools near the top of the league tables do have students who go far and something a lot more obvious is schools near the bottom of league tables almost constantly have underachieving students. I find it funny you are calling me awful for just stating what is the truth and what my whole job is focussed on fixing at the moment so I think I am qualified to speak on this matter. I should really be calling you awful for just effectively saying "well the school doesn't matter its the kids who don't work hard enough" when the fact is they do and they are simply being let down by a community where people who pay for the bus get jealous of children going for free and in turn want them to be disadvantaged by always going to schools close to them. A school near the bottom of the league tables will struggle recruiting strong teachers for stable periods of time and children will never flourish unless they get a good teacher - this is the black and blue of it. Your argument of a child working by themselves to improve it can all be applied here however why should a child from a poorer community need to work harder while those from richer communities get all of this handed to them on a plate? Maybe I'm an awful person for working in this field to try my best to get all the disadvantaged in our community the chance that they truly deserve and I take it I am also an awful person for wanting children to have free travel so that they can have a childhood. It doesn't matter what sort of childhood we had, that's fine if we enjoyed it or not. It doesn't matter. What matters now is that the young get the childhood that the society is able to provide them, they deserve every right to have a childhood that might have been better than our own and we should not go out of our way to ruin it for them. They are our future whether people like it or not, they do deserve to be cared for by the community because in the future they will be the ones looking after everyone when they are unable to work anymore. The attainment gap that you constantly seem to just say can be solved by "children working hard" is just not the case, it is just wrong and that is not what should be expected of children either. Once again sorry that I am an awful person and actually care about the younger people in our community. Children from poorer backgrounds and poorer schools have to work harder because people like you are the ones telling them they can’t really achieve much because of their background. If this is your career I would suggest a rethink because your views are very biased against these poorer kids. If you think it’s just a free bus pass they need you don’t understand the needs of these communities and I feel sorry for you. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 6, 2020 11:56:04 GMT
I don't know what basis you have to make this statement. I work in Higher education collaborating with Universities such as Westminster, Queen Marys and UCL as well as many schools found towards the bottom of local league tables to investigate and reduce the attainment gap. There is no denying at all that schools near the top of the league tables do have students who go far and something a lot more obvious is schools near the bottom of league tables almost constantly have underachieving students. I find it funny you are calling me awful for just stating what is the truth and what my whole job is focussed on fixing at the moment so I think I am qualified to speak on this matter. I should really be calling you awful for just effectively saying "well the school doesn't matter its the kids who don't work hard enough" when the fact is they do and they are simply being let down by a community where people who pay for the bus get jealous of children going for free and in turn want them to be disadvantaged by always going to schools close to them. A school near the bottom of the league tables will struggle recruiting strong teachers for stable periods of time and children will never flourish unless they get a good teacher - this is the black and blue of it. Your argument of a child working by themselves to improve it can all be applied here however why should a child from a poorer community need to work harder while those from richer communities get all of this handed to them on a plate? Maybe I'm an awful person for working in this field to try my best to get all the disadvantaged in our community the chance that they truly deserve and I take it I am also an awful person for wanting children to have free travel so that they can have a childhood. It doesn't matter what sort of childhood we had, that's fine if we enjoyed it or not. It doesn't matter. What matters now is that the young get the childhood that the society is able to provide them, they deserve every right to have a childhood that might have been better than our own and we should not go out of our way to ruin it for them. They are our future whether people like it or not, they do deserve to be cared for by the community because in the future they will be the ones looking after everyone when they are unable to work anymore. The attainment gap that you constantly seem to just say can be solved by "children working hard" is just not the case, it is just wrong and that is not what should be expected of children either. Once again sorry that I am an awful person and actually care about the younger people in our community. Children from poorer backgrounds and poorer schools have to work harder because people like you are the ones telling them they can’t really achieve much because of their background. If this is your career I would suggest a rethink because your views are very biased against these poorer kids. If you think it’s just a free bus pass they need you don’t understand the needs of these communities and I feel sorry for you. If you're now going to start taking swipes at my personal life instead of actually continuing this debate then it's just low and I'm not going to entertain this further. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 12:04:20 GMT
Children from poorer backgrounds and poorer schools have to work harder because people like you are the ones telling them they can’t really achieve much because of their background. If this is your career I would suggest a rethink because your views are very biased against these poorer kids. If you think it’s just a free bus pass they need you don’t understand the needs of these communities and I feel sorry for you. If you're now going to start taking swipes at my personal life instead of actually continuing this debate then it's just low and I'm not going to entertain this further. Bye Felicia 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 13:07:06 GMT
Not all parents , carers etc do spend loads of money and some are on much lower incomes now, perhaps even under threat of being made redundant. My kids certainly don’t get bought top of the range of anything. Hand me downs and holidays in the UK. Because we can’t afford to go abroad, Of course we budget for cost of sending the kids to school. But it is something I would rather , a) like to be free or b) not bother sending them by bus anymore because we could put that £1k towards home improvements or something else. Choice of schools comes into play as well. In Kent there is the 11+ still. So you want them to pass this, then it means the going to a school perhaps further away. Hence, needing to travel by bus , if it were not to impinge on parents working day. I take it that you possibly earn less than £20k a year by your comments of being hard off. Even still, the abolition of free travel would have a salary threshold as it was before. People seem to forget that there was free travel before, just that it has been a free for all for everyone and is not needed. It was purely a "vote winner" imo I don’t know what you’re getting at to be honest. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Aug 6, 2020 17:27:41 GMT
Sigh... between this and those sanctimonious about their masks... this thread is a roller coaster. 🙃🙃🙃
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