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Post by DE20106 on Sept 18, 2023 8:11:13 GMT
So I’ll take the 150 as we know from reliable sources it has some high paid drivers: If the 150 is lost to another operator and said high paid drivers TUPE across to the new operator, they stand to have their pay slashed after 6 months at their new company? TUPE is part of the contracted services market, something the unions fought hard for. Legally there is no option. If you are caught by TUPE (over 50% of you work is on said contract(s)), your role and job should transfer, but as you know we seen little compliance with this in the London bus industry. If that was to happen it would be disgraceful behaviour by the winning company, do you not agree? Definitely |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 18, 2023 10:45:09 GMT
So I’ll take the 150 as we know from reliable sources it has some high paid drivers: If the 150 is lost to another operator and said high paid drivers TUPE across to the new operator, they stand to have their pay slashed after 6 months at their new company? TUPE is part of the contracted services market, something the unions fought hard for. Legally there is no option. If you are caught by TUPE (over 50% of you work is on said contract(s)), your role and job should transfer, but as you know we seen little compliance with this in the London bus industry. If that was to happen it would be disgraceful behaviour by the winning company, do you not agree? I believe it happens quite frequently with the winning company, notably both Go Ahead and Stagecoach are apparently guilty of doing this. Think Arriva has been the outlier for some time in how it treats its drivers with very favourable terms and its no surprise that drivers seem to be upset to leave. That said it shows with other companies where drivers seem to be on the move every other day. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 18, 2023 10:49:41 GMT
It is similar to what has happened recently with the loss of a few routes. Drivers on the 340, 325, 78, 133, 333 (and now 242) have been told they are all to be TUPE transferred with the route. if they want to stay with the company they MUST sign a new contract with different terms and conditions which would ultimately see them earning less money if they do rest days, overtime etc. This has not gone down well at all. There was a vote about 2 weeks ago and IIRC the union is pushing for industrial action. The amount of times new starter rates has changed with all the companies over the years is a joke. This is a textbook way of taking your hand out of the lions mouth, and putting your head in instead! What a way to treat your loyal drivers who have been with the company for a long time who are inevitably going to be in those high pay bands. Either p-off with the route or stay with us and have your pay slashed! Looks like disgraceful behaviour tbh I think Arriva have their head in the Lion's mouth already. They are losing work, so keeping these drivers anyway wouldn't on its own bring a massive benefit so you might as well ship them off. If they're bleeding the company's resources then it's only fair to the others who work for the company that the company's best interests are looked out for. It's a harsh reality that the new operator will probably rid the old terms when they are available. |
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Post by WH241 on Sept 18, 2023 11:06:18 GMT
This is a textbook way of taking your hand out of the lions mouth, and putting your head in instead! What a way to treat your loyal drivers who have been with the company for a long time who are inevitably going to be in those high pay bands. Either p-off with the route or stay with us and have your pay slashed! Looks like disgraceful behaviour tbh I think Arriva have their head in the Lion's mouth already. They are losing work, so keeping these drivers anyway wouldn't on its own bring a massive benefit so you might as well ship them off. If they're bleeding the company's resources then it's only fair to the others who work for the company that the company's best interests are looked out for. It's a harsh reality that the new operator will probably rid the old terms when they are available. Stagecoach did similar when they lost the 25 to First in 2011. I think drivers kept the conditions their contracts but not sure about pay! And now some of those drivers have ended up back at Stagecoach. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 18, 2023 11:18:03 GMT
I think Arriva have their head in the Lion's mouth already. They are losing work, so keeping these drivers anyway wouldn't on its own bring a massive benefit so you might as well ship them off. If they're bleeding the company's resources then it's only fair to the others who work for the company that the company's best interests are looked out for. It's a harsh reality that the new operator will probably rid the old terms when they are available. Stagecoach did similar when they lost the 25 to First in 2011. I think drivers kept the conditions their contracts but not sure about pay! And now some of those drivers have ended up back at Stagecoach. I believe there was a huge fiasco over that one, they ended up on a contract called DR24 in the end which was a considerable downgrade from their bendy rate but was more favourable than the standard terms offered by First. |
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Post by DE20106 on Sept 18, 2023 16:11:02 GMT
This is a textbook way of taking your hand out of the lions mouth, and putting your head in instead! What a way to treat your loyal drivers who have been with the company for a long time who are inevitably going to be in those high pay bands. Either p-off with the route or stay with us and have your pay slashed! Looks like disgraceful behaviour tbh Well something has to give! If the company keep the drivers on at the current pay rate they will eventually not have enough work for them and ultimately end up losing their job with Arriva anyway. They are better off taking the TUPE and going elsewhere instead of having to start again as a new employee. I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff shortages for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. |
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Post by WH241 on Sept 18, 2023 17:23:59 GMT
Well something has to give! If the company keep the drivers on at the current pay rate they will eventually not have enough work for them and ultimately end up losing their job with Arriva anyway. They are better off taking the TUPE and going elsewhere instead of having to start again as a new employee. I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. But what else could Arriva do? Say for example with the 325 going next year they most likely would have far too many drivers than they need. They could probably offer for them to move to another garage but if you are based at DX would you really want to travel to GY or even further CT? Taking TUPE could be the better option if you move down the road to RR garage. I know this won’t prove popular but to a certain extent drivers will need to accept the higher rates of pay from the past are not sustainable whilst TfL expects rock bottom bids. |
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Post by greenboy on Sept 18, 2023 17:28:40 GMT
Well something has to give! If the company keep the drivers on at the current pay rate they will eventually not have enough work for them and ultimately end up losing their job with Arriva anyway. They are better off taking the TUPE and going elsewhere instead of having to start again as a new employee. I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. Nobody is to blame, it's how competitive tendering works. If somebody puts in a lower bid than Arriva then TfL haven't got much choice other than to accept it and obviously Arriva haven't got much choice other than to TUPE staff if they no longer have a job for them. |
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Post by WH241 on Sept 18, 2023 17:33:27 GMT
I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. Nobody is to blame, it's how competitive tendering works. If somebody puts in a lower bid than Arriva then TfL haven't got much choice other than to accept it and obviously Arriva haven't got much choice other than to TUPE staff if they no longer have a job for them. To a certain extent drivers should look at bus driving as a fixed term contract so if a route is won they have either 5 or 7 years of work but can’t be guaranteed anything after this. |
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Post by greenboy on Sept 18, 2023 17:49:36 GMT
Nobody is to blame, it's how competitive tendering works. If somebody puts in a lower bid than Arriva then TfL haven't got much choice other than to accept it and obviously Arriva haven't got much choice other than to TUPE staff if they no longer have a job for them. To a certain extent drivers should look at bus driving as a fixed term contract so if a route is won they have either 5 or 7 years of work but can’t be guaranteed anything after this. This is true and whilst they will still have a job after 5 or 7 years it may well be at a different location. |
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Post by buston on Sept 18, 2023 17:58:51 GMT
Well something has to give! If the company keep the drivers on at the current pay rate they will eventually not have enough work for them and ultimately end up losing their job with Arriva anyway. They are better off taking the TUPE and going elsewhere instead of having to start again as a new employee. I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. I second that! |
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 18, 2023 17:59:36 GMT
SW3 back in regular service at AD on the 329, who knows what the future is for the SW’s! Will she gain Superloop livery soon?  I guess the others will come home? Barely see them on the 312 at the moment  |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 19, 2023 8:11:23 GMT
I disagree with that, imagine giving that many years of good service to the company and to the job for quite frankly F-all reward. I partly blame TfL for forcing operators’ cost down, but the industry deserves to have staff for how they treat their drivers, who are worth far more than that. But what else could Arriva do? Say for example with the 325 going next year they most likely would have far too many drivers than they need. They could probably offer for them to move to another garage but if you are based at DX would you really want to travel to GY or even further CT? Taking TUPE could be the better option if you move down the road to RR garage. I know this won’t prove popular but to a certain extent drivers will need to accept the higher rates of pay from the past are not sustainable whilst TfL expects rock bottom bids. A lot of the drivers at [DX] drive. [GY] is not that far and takes around 20-25 minutes from [DX] |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 19, 2023 8:14:47 GMT
Nobody is to blame, it's how competitive tendering works. If somebody puts in a lower bid than Arriva then TfL haven't got much choice other than to accept it and obviously Arriva haven't got much choice other than to TUPE staff if they no longer have a job for them. To a certain extent drivers should look at bus driving as a fixed term contract so if a route is won they have either 5 or 7 years of work but can’t be guaranteed anything after this. If drivers were told of this when they started this TUPE nonsense they would not want to stay on a contract that long. I would make sure the last 2 years of being a contract to change route to one just recently won with the company to guarantee to stay there. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 19, 2023 8:33:48 GMT
I think Arriva have their head in the Lion's mouth already. They are losing work, so keeping these drivers anyway wouldn't on its own bring a massive benefit so you might as well ship them off. If they're bleeding the company's resources then it's only fair to the others who work for the company that the company's best interests are looked out for. It's a harsh reality that the new operator will probably rid the old terms when they are available. Stagecoach did similar when they lost the 25 to First in 2011. I think drivers kept the conditions their contracts but not sure about pay! And now some of those drivers have ended up back at Stagecoach. That nearly crippled [LI] as they were losing near £25k per week! They then had to revert the drivers that TUPE transferred to DR24 the normal high paid double deck driver rate instead of the bendy bus rate. I remember the drivers and union then taking First to court over this and losing. Even after they were on DR24 they were still losing but no way as much. IN 2012 I remember many of them wanting Stagecoach to buy the company, only for them to pull out of buying First due to the contract prices and losses, only 10 years later to buy [LI] of then Tower Transit. |
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I guess the others will come home? Barely see them on the 312 at the moment 