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Post by bk10mfe on May 18, 2024 21:26:59 GMT
A decent option that was suggested a while ago involving the 88 was to put it back onto its old routing via Warren St, then have the 134 divert at Camden Town to Oxford Circus via the 88’s current LOR. The 134 south of Camden is barely used at all which is an unfortunate result of TfL cutting the route back.
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ZiyQ
Conductor
I always end up saying too much - beware of the waffle posts taking up an entire thread’s page…
Posts: 113
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Post by ZiyQ on May 18, 2024 21:48:23 GMT
My Barnet to Chingford and Chingford to Stratford Superloop 2 Routes ProposalThis is part 3 of my series on what can improve the current Superloop network—this time jumping to the proposed routes between Barnet and Chingford and Chingford to Stratford The idea of having a Superloop service between Chingford and Stratford via Walthamstow and Leyton sounds like a good idea on paper. It has however been criticised for its viability mainly on the grounds of a lack of overtaking facilities on the A112, and questionable stand space at Chingford station. This is if both routes from Barnet and Stratford terminate there. Other notes are from where resources are being invested rather than improving wider connectivity between local areas as well as bus priority measures and capacity. Part 1: Restructure the proposed Harrow to Barnet Superloop 2 route to operate from Enfield Retail Park instead
The currently proposed Harrow to Barnet Superloop 2 route could operate from Enfield Retail Park instead. This involves extending the route to Enfield Retail Park via the proposed Barnet to Chingford route through Oakwood station, Enfield Town before terminating at Enfield Retail Park. Enfield Retail Park was chosen rather than Enfield Town due to the limited standing space at Enfield Town. In particular, turning back buses coming from the west. There are many potential benefits of this restructuring including, supporting new housing developments taking place at Enfield Retail Park with up to 1,000 new homes expected, new wider connectivity to town centres of Edgware and Harrow directly from Enfield Town. These links aren’t currently provided. For the Chingford to Enfield Retail Park section. The proposals will be in part 2 below. Apologies for the long reply, but I do hope that I have provided some level of meaningful feedback. Cut of Barnet - Chingford / Chingford - Stratford Routes:As for the proposed cut of the routes between Chingford and Stratford and Chingford to Barnet, whilst I agree that they may be some of the most unviable proposed routes to operate under Superloop form, just cutting both may not be the best proposal in my eyes. One thing that cannot be ignored is the traffic east of Ponders End, at the junctions of Nags Head Road / Ponders End High Street and Lea Valley Road / Sewardstone Road, which gets especially busy should anything go wrong on either the A406 and M25 (which is quite frequently), as it is one of the only East-West routes in this area. This alone can already create huge problems for the 313's reliability (with the fast routing of the rest of the route helping a lot with the reliability), let alone a route from Ponders End to Stratford or any Superloop route. However, this corridor is quite underbussed, and any time I see 313s in that area, they often do get packed along the solo 20-minute frequency, mostly owing to the lack of stand space at Chingford Station. Extension of Harrow - Barnet Route:As for the extension of the Harrow to Barnet route to Enfield Retail Park, I do see an extension of that route as a good idea, even if the A1 may cause unreliability on that section. However the extension to Enfield Retail Park, even with future developments, does not provide an adequate interchange are for travellers, and does not change the fact that it drops off passengers next to the A10 dual carriageway, with unsatisfactory onward links, with no unique links being provided - I would definitely be supportive of an extension of the route slightly further eastwards, likely to Ponders End, but that has its own issues of routing and interchange to access the Bus Garage forecourt, or possibly Edmonton Green, which whilst it would create many useful links, would make the route very long and unreliable to operate. Perhaps the route could be split as it was originally proposed as, with the Barnet - Harrow route remaining as it is, and the Barnet - Chingford route possibly diverting to Edmonton Green or another good area for interchange. Extensions of Route 357:
Whilst the 357 in its current form may not provide many unique or useful links, an extension of the route on both ends may make the route quite unreliable, especially with the frequent traffic mentioned above. If reliability problems on the A110 can be fixed, a Superloop route or an extended 357 could be extremely popular as a fast East-West link, but as long as that does not happen (which is most likely), the 313 may be stuck as the sole route along that corridor. Even if an extended 357 would provide many new links, especially for me personally, I would not want the reliability for the route to suffer just because it would provide some useful links to locals such as me. The demand along this corridor is definitely there - but the 357 may not be the best way to address it. |
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Post by COBO on May 18, 2024 22:29:43 GMT
Revising a previous idea:
79: withdrawn between Biddeford Avenue and Stonebridge Park. Diverted to Willesden Junction via route to Abbey Road, route 440 to Central Middlesex Hospital, route 228 to Station and 487 to Willesden Junction. To link Ealing Road with Central Middlesex Hospital.
218: withdrawn between Acton and Hammersmith. Diverted to Turnham Green via route 440. Extended from North Acton to Central Middlesex Hospital via route 440. To link West Acton with Central Middlesex Hospital.
224: rerouted between Alperton Sainsbury’s and Abbey Road via Ealing Road and Hanger Lane Gyratory. Extended from Alperton Sainsbury’s to Perivale Tesco’s via route 297 to Perivale Station, Horsenden Lane South, Teignmouth Gardens and Biddeford Avenue. Linking Perivale with Park Royal.
303: extended from Kingsbury to Central Middlesex Hospital via Fryent Way, The Paddocks, Forty Lane, route 182 to Neasden Shopping Centre, Neasden Lane, Birse Crescent, Neasden Underpass, route 16 Brent Park Tesco’s, route 92 to Wembley Stadium Station and 440 to Central Middlesex Hospital. Converted to double deck. To link Blackbird cross with Brent Park and to maintain links lost by the 440.
440: rerouted between First Way and Stonebridge Park via Harrow Road, Brentfield, Hillside, Brentfield Road and route 206 to First Way. Withdrawn between Acton and Turnham Green diverted to Hammersmith via route 218. Converted to double deck.
479: new route between Stonebridge Park and Oldfield Circus via Argenta Way, North Circular Road, Beresford Avenue, route 224 to Alperton Sainsbury’s, route 297 to Bilton Road, Aintree Road, Biddeford Avenue, Perivale Tescos, Teignmouth Gardens, Welland Gardens, Medway Parade, Argyle Road, Western Avenue, South Greenford Station, Greenford Roundabout, Greenford Road, Rockware Avenue, Oldfield Lane North and Currey Road. To link North Greenford with Perivale. To link North Greenford with Perivale.
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Post by VMH2537 on May 18, 2024 23:06:12 GMT
ZiyQ Thanks for the feedback. I must say, it's graceful having another North London companion knowledgeable on routes and services. We are quite quiet up here 😉. What I could've mentioned was using the current Enfield Retail Park stands often used by curtailing services. Not to mention of course not dumping people on the A10, rather terminating at at Baird Road Stop Q before starting it's journey westbound by picking up at GCR Stop J. Interchanges to other services are at available for A10 services northbound to Turkey Street or Waltham Cross by a 217 or the 317. The whole choice of terminating the route there was mainly on grounds of a lack of standing space in Enfield Town for westbound services, unless a new stand is installed, there is isn't much of a choice to continue. I do agree with your other point regarding the 313 being the only route on the A110 as well as running often at capacity during the peaks. However I think there's a slight hesitation on stand space at Chingford station. For only one stand a service can run up to 15 minutes at most without requiring more. If TfL are proposing this Barnet to Chingford service, I'm curious to see as how the layout will process being it will likely run every 12 minutes looking at other services. The 357 was one of the options, though it can certainly continue to serve Chingford Hatch whilst extending to Stratford if any upgrades are needed along the corridor and addressing reliability. You could also extend the 377 to somewhere south of Chingford requiring a much limited amount of resources if any such link from Ponders End are established. Once more, even this idea has its own drawbacks on its low half hourly frequency and considerable risk of traffic proness.
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Post by sdaniel on May 18, 2024 23:48:43 GMT
ZiyQ Thanks for the feedback. I must say, it's graceful having another North London companion knowledgeable on routes and services. We are quite quiet up here 😉. What I could've mentioned was using the current Enfield Retail Park stands often used by curtailing services. Not to mention of course not dumping people on the A10, rather terminating at at Baird Road Stop Q before starting it's journey westbound by picking up at GCR Stop J. Interchanges to other services are at available for A10 services northbound to Turkey Street or Waltham Cross by a 217 or the 317. The whole choice of terminating the route there was mainly on grounds of a lack of standing space in Enfield Town for westbound services, unless a new stand is installed, there is isn't much of a choice to continue. I do agree with your other point regarding the 313 being the only route on the A110 as well as running often at capacity during the peaks. However I think there's a slight hesitation on stand space at Chingford station. For only one stand a service can run up to 15 minutes at most without requiring more. If TfL are proposing this Barnet to Chingford service, I'm curious to see as how the layout will process being it will likely run every 12 minutes looking at other services. The 357 was one of the options, though it can certainly continue to serve Chingford Hatch whilst extending to Stratford if any upgrades are needed along the corridor and addressing reliability. You could also extend the 377 to somewhere south of Chingford requiring a much limited amount of resources if any such link from Ponders End are established. Once more, even this idea has its own drawbacks on its low half hourly frequency and considerable risk of traffic proness. Extending the 357 to Stratford would basically be an extension of 257. Moreover, I think 377 should serve Ponders End Rail Station (through 191’s way) if a change is needed to that route. |
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Post by sdaniel on May 19, 2024 0:07:25 GMT
My Barnet to Chingford and Chingford to Stratford Superloop 2 Routes ProposalThis is part 3 of my series on what can improve the current Superloop network—this time jumping to the proposed routes between Barnet and Chingford and Chingford to Stratford The idea of having a Superloop service between Chingford and Stratford via Walthamstow and Leyton sounds like a good idea on paper. It has however been criticised for its viability mainly on the grounds of a lack of overtaking facilities on the A112, and questionable stand space at Chingford station. This is if both routes from Barnet and Stratford terminate there. Other notes are from where resources are being invested rather than improving wider connectivity between local areas as well as bus priority measures and capacity. Part 1: Restructure the proposed Harrow to Barnet Superloop 2 route to operate from Enfield Retail Park instead
The currently proposed Harrow to Barnet Superloop 2 route could operate from Enfield Retail Park instead. This involves extending the route to Enfield Retail Park via the proposed Barnet to Chingford route through Oakwood station, Enfield Town before terminating at Enfield Retail Park. Enfield Retail Park was chosen rather than Enfield Town due to the limited standing space at Enfield Town. In particular, turning back buses coming from the west. There are many potential benefits of this restructuring including, supporting new housing developments taking place at Enfield Retail Park with up to 1,000 new homes expected, new wider connectivity to town centres of Edgware and Harrow directly from Enfield Town. These links aren’t currently provided. For the Chingford to Enfield Retail Park section. The proposals will be in part 2 below. Apologies for the long reply, but I do hope that I have provided some level of meaningful feedback. Cut of Barnet - Chingford / Chingford - Stratford Routes:As for the proposed cut of the routes between Chingford and Stratford and Chingford to Barnet, whilst I agree that they may be some of the most unviable proposed routes to operate under Superloop form, just cutting both may not be the best proposal in my eyes. One thing that cannot be ignored is the traffic east of Ponders End, at the junctions of Nags Head Road / Ponders End High Street and Lea Valley Road / Sewardstone Road, which gets especially busy should anything go wrong on either the A406 and M25 (which is quite frequently), as it is one of the only East-West routes in this area. This alone can already create huge problems for the 313's reliability (with the fast routing of the rest of the route helping a lot with the reliability), let alone a route from Ponders End to Stratford or any Superloop route. However, this corridor is quite underbussed, and any time I see 313s in that area, they often do get packed along the solo 20-minute frequency, mostly owing to the lack of stand space at Chingford Station. Extension of Harrow - Barnet Route:As for the extension of the Harrow to Barnet route to Enfield Retail Park, I do see an extension of that route as a good idea, even if the A1 may cause unreliability on that section. However the extension to Enfield Retail Park, even with future developments, does not provide an adequate interchange are for travellers, and does not change the fact that it drops off passengers next to the A10 dual carriageway, with unsatisfactory onward links, with no unique links being provided - I would definitely be supportive of an extension of the route slightly further eastwards, likely to Ponders End, but that has its own issues of routing and interchange to access the Bus Garage forecourt, or possibly Edmonton Green, which whilst it would create many useful links, would make the route very long and unreliable to operate. Perhaps the route could be split as it was originally proposed as, with the Barnet - Harrow route remaining as it is, and the Barnet - Chingford route possibly diverting to Edmonton Green or another good area for interchange. Extensions of Route 357:
Whilst the 357 in its current form may not provide many unique or useful links, an extension of the route on both ends may make the route quite unreliable, especially with the frequent traffic mentioned above. If reliability problems on the A110 can be fixed, a Superloop route or an extended 357 could be extremely popular as a fast East-West link, but as long as that does not happen (which is most likely), the 313 may be stuck as the sole route along that corridor. Even if an extended 357 would provide many new links, especially for me personally, I would not want the reliability for the route to suffer just because it would provide some useful links to locals such as me. The demand along this corridor is definitely there - but the 357 may not be the best way to address it. You could try a Harrow - Chingford route potentially. The journey between Chingford and Edgware will definitely be quick and will be maybe an hour long. Chingford Station (Stop D) Chingford Police Station (Stop N) Ponders End Station (Stop PK) Glyn Road (Stop D) Ponders End Bus Garage/Southbury Station (Stop B) Great Cambridge Road (Stop J) Enfield Town Station (Stop N) Enfield Chase Station (Stop CA) Oakwood Station (Stop A) New Barnet Station/Barnet Road (Stop E) High Barnet Station (Stop Q) Barnet Hospital/Queens Road (Stop D) Stirling Corner/Barnet Road (Stop G) Apex Corner (Stop J) Edgware Station (Stop G) Edgware Police Station (Stop R) Canons Park Station (Stop B) Harrow & Wealdstone Station (Stop M) Harrow Town Centre (Stop J) Harrow Bus Station (Stop C) |
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Post by greg on May 19, 2024 1:02:35 GMT
A decent option that was suggested a while ago involving the 88 was to put it back onto its old routing via Warren St, then have the 134 divert at Camden Town to Oxford Circus via the 88’s current LOR. The 134 south of Camden is barely used at all which is an unfortunate result of TfL cutting the route back. Yes! I think if the two separate consultations were announced at similar times, TFL would have definitely gone ahead with this. The 134 is actually used heavily between Warren Street and Kentish Town and actually fills up most of the two decks from the first bus stop at Warren Street Station but this is evidently as its the only route to the Kentish Town area and is actually quite frequent. It certainly picks up more than the 24 northbound. Rerouting the 88 would provide the exact same link and so it wouldn’t be an issue rerouting the 134 down Great Portland to OXO. Perhaps a slight frequency increase on the 24 which serves somewhat walking distance to the majority of the 134 route between Tufnell Park and Warren Street to accommodate it. I also think the 88 being rerouted would bring back many unique links, as well as relieving the 27 which is more than oftenly delayed and skips stops on Hampstead Road in both directions because people are holding onto the doors as it is so busy. |
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Post by bk10mfe on May 19, 2024 8:19:27 GMT
A decent option that was suggested a while ago involving the 88 was to put it back onto its old routing via Warren St, then have the 134 divert at Camden Town to Oxford Circus via the 88’s current LOR. The 134 south of Camden is barely used at all which is an unfortunate result of TfL cutting the route back. Yes! I think if the two separate consultations were announced at similar times, TFL would have definitely gone ahead with this. The 134 is actually used heavily between Warren Street and Kentish Town and actually fills up most of the two decks from the first bus stop at Warren Street Station but this is evidently as its the only route to the Kentish Town area and is actually quite frequent. It certainly picks up more than the 24 northbound. Rerouting the 88 would provide the exact same link and so it wouldn’t be an issue rerouting the 134 down Great Portland to OXO. Perhaps a slight frequency increase on the 24 which serves somewhat walking distance to the majority of the 134 route between Tufnell Park and Warren Street to accommodate it. I also think the 88 being rerouted would bring back many unique links, as well as relieving the 27 which is more than oftenly delayed and skips stops on Hampstead Road in both directions because people are holding onto the doors as it is so busy. I’ve never noticed the 134 being full whatsoever south of Camden. Warren St isn’t really the most attractive place to terminate a route. I feel like there is so much more potential that could be done with the southern end of the 134. |
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18ARustee
Conductor
Security Supervisor
Posts: 78 
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Post by 18ARustee on May 19, 2024 9:01:20 GMT
I have wondered why Victoria Embankment only has the N551 as a bus route. I did think the 388 would have been rerouted from Blackfriars to serve there, and then either terminate at Westminster or Victoria Coach Station?
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Post by ADH45258 on May 19, 2024 9:07:14 GMT
Yes! I think if the two separate consultations were announced at similar times, TFL would have definitely gone ahead with this. The 134 is actually used heavily between Warren Street and Kentish Town and actually fills up most of the two decks from the first bus stop at Warren Street Station but this is evidently as its the only route to the Kentish Town area and is actually quite frequent. It certainly picks up more than the 24 northbound. Rerouting the 88 would provide the exact same link and so it wouldn’t be an issue rerouting the 134 down Great Portland to OXO. Perhaps a slight frequency increase on the 24 which serves somewhat walking distance to the majority of the 134 route between Tufnell Park and Warren Street to accommodate it. I also think the 88 being rerouted would bring back many unique links, as well as relieving the 27 which is more than oftenly delayed and skips stops on Hampstead Road in both directions because people are holding onto the doors as it is so busy. I’ve never noticed the 134 being full whatsoever south of Camden. Warren St isn’t really the most attractive place to terminate a route. I feel like there is so much more potential that could be done with the southern end of the 134. Even Euston would be a better terminus - the 253 does see demand south of Camden Town. |
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Post by greg on May 19, 2024 9:41:50 GMT
Yes! I think if the two separate consultations were announced at similar times, TFL would have definitely gone ahead with this. The 134 is actually used heavily between Warren Street and Kentish Town and actually fills up most of the two decks from the first bus stop at Warren Street Station but this is evidently as its the only route to the Kentish Town area and is actually quite frequent. It certainly picks up more than the 24 northbound. Rerouting the 88 would provide the exact same link and so it wouldn’t be an issue rerouting the 134 down Great Portland to OXO. Perhaps a slight frequency increase on the 24 which serves somewhat walking distance to the majority of the 134 route between Tufnell Park and Warren Street to accommodate it. I also think the 88 being rerouted would bring back many unique links, as well as relieving the 27 which is more than oftenly delayed and skips stops on Hampstead Road in both directions because people are holding onto the doors as it is so busy. I’ve never noticed the 134 being full whatsoever south of Camden. Warren St isn’t really the most attractive place to terminate a route. I feel like there is so much more potential that could be done with the southern end of the 134. Well it can be empty towards Warren Street, 6/10 of the time, I’ll give you that. But towards North Finchley, the 134 is absolutely loaded from the very first stop. You’ve got to remember that Warren Street is not as bland as you think, merely just a middle ground: it is a stone drop to Fitzrovia and nearby Soho and Bloomsbury, it is homeland to the UCL students aswell as the UCLH hospital, and Euston and Regent’s Park are walking distance. It is a huge interchange for buses heading south, east, north and west and has got the H&C/Circle/Met, Victoria/Northern and then the Bakerloo at Regent’s Park and Piccadilly at Russel Square all within a 10 minute walk. It has many offices and things here, which can be evident when the Victoria Line escalators are exit only peak hours every morning. Extending it to Euston would be pretty much pointless when you have the 214 already going pretty much 2 minutes away when the 134 is the only route to Kentish Town from Warren Street. @adh45258 |
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18ARustee
Conductor
Security Supervisor
Posts: 78
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Post by 18ARustee on May 19, 2024 13:05:14 GMT
I do appreciate TfL wanting to reduce routes going through Oxford Street. However, not everyone is able to hop on hop off. I think either of the following would/could prove beneficial.
Route 8 - extended to Marble Arch. Providing a through route along the Oxford Street corridor.
Route 94 - rerouted via Oxford Circus to Holborn.
The 98 already being overcrowded at times, could use the help from either. Not suggesting both routes to be altered, but one of them.
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Post by bk10mfe on May 19, 2024 13:13:25 GMT
I do appreciate TfL wanting to reduce routes going through Oxford Street. However, not everyone is able to hop on hop off. I think either of the following would/could prove beneficial. Route 8 - extended to Marble Arch. Providing a through route along the Oxford Street corridor. Route 94 - rerouted via Oxford Circus to Holborn. The 98 already being overcrowded at times, could use the help from either. Not suggesting both routes to be altered, but one of them. The 94 definitely should not run to Holborn, this would just make it duplicate the central line more than it already is & the links into the West End are very important. I suggested a while ago to extend the 7 back to Russell Square which would help relive the 98 & provide a more useful link to the British Museum/Russell Square than what the 14 does. |
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Post by enviroPB on May 19, 2024 13:29:35 GMT
I have wondered why Victoria Embankment only has the N551 as a bus route. I did think the 388 would have been rerouted from Blackfriars to serve there, and then either terminate at Westminster or Victoria Coach Station? The N550 was the route that went along the Embankment but it was permanently rerouted in 2017 due to Thames Water's Supersewer works. There has been no night bus along Embankment for 7 and a half years. |
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Post by WH241 on May 19, 2024 13:40:11 GMT
I do appreciate TfL wanting to reduce routes going through Oxford Street. However, not everyone is able to hop on hop off. I think either of the following would/could prove beneficial. Route 8 - extended to Marble Arch. Providing a through route along the Oxford Street corridor. Route 94 - rerouted via Oxford Circus to Holborn. The 98 already being overcrowded at times, could use the help from either. Not suggesting both routes to be altered, but one of them. Not being able to hop on and off is a really weak argument for extending routes and could apply along lots of corridors! No one would really travel end to end along the Oxford Street corridor. You have to consider how much extra time this would add to routes and the increased cost of extra buses that would be needed for the new PVR. You seem to want to undo changes to the network and this is unlikely to happen. |
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