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Post by vjaska on Jul 18, 2024 21:59:38 GMT
They reduced congestion in the bus station and Wellesley Road. Reducing congestion I understand, but the 405 being cut back is something I will always be against, it gave Redhill and surrounding Surrey towns a direct connection to the London Overground, and a selection of buses that go almost everywhere in the neighbouring boroughs. The congestion argument I don’t think is understandable and let’s be honest, it’s only used by those who want and delight in seeing cuts happen to buses. I was against the changes at the time and I remain against them - just another reason not to bother with Croydon given how much of a dump it’s sadly become. The nail in the coffin is the stupid and constant faffing about with the road network around Park Street & Katherine Street
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Post by bluepuffy on Jul 18, 2024 22:20:18 GMT
The 443, it was confirmed to be renumbered to the 457 a few months ago. I always thought the number 443 was asking for problems with the 433 also in Croydon, remains to be seen whether it will ever happen. In my opinion it could work but the 407 would be extremely small as a route afterwards and would only stay around due to how needed it is between Croydon and Sutton crossborough travels. Really, I'd extend the 457 somewhere else too, perhaps towards Elmers End or Norwood Junction, the numbering would still make sense too, 75 flipped around is 57, then you have the 407, makes me think if that was their intention, at Norwood Junction you also have the 157 which would give it some more reasoning for the number too. As for the 407, it would be fine as really, but perhaps rather than West Croydon make it terminate at Croydon Town Centre. As the 457 was planned to go via Old Town, interchanges at West Croydon could still absolutely work, and would give the 407 a " Town Centre to Town Centre " look, which could benefit it at a reduced state.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 19, 2024 11:06:21 GMT
I always thought the number 443 was asking for problems with the 433 also in Croydon, remains to be seen whether it will ever happen. In my opinion it could work but the 407 would be extremely small as a route afterwards and would only stay around due to how needed it is between Croydon and Sutton crossborough travels. Really, I'd extend the 457 somewhere else too, perhaps towards Elmers End or Norwood Junction, the numbering would still make sense too, 75 flipped around is 57, then you have the 407, makes me think if that was their intention, at Norwood Junction you also have the 157 which would give it some more reasoning for the number too. As for the 407, it would be fine as really, but perhaps rather than West Croydon make it terminate at Croydon Town Centre. As the 457 was planned to go via Old Town, interchanges at West Croydon could still absolutely work, and would give the 407 a " Town Centre to Town Centre " look, which could benefit it at a reduced state. If the route via Old Town ever does happen it might be better to reroute the 410 from Reeves Corner that way to South Croydon Garage, reroute the 407 at Wallington Green to Wallington Station and extend the 403 from West Croydon to Sutton.
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Post by bluepuffy on Jul 19, 2024 11:18:01 GMT
In my opinion it could work but the 407 would be extremely small as a route afterwards and would only stay around due to how needed it is between Croydon and Sutton crossborough travels. Really, I'd extend the 457 somewhere else too, perhaps towards Elmers End or Norwood Junction, the numbering would still make sense too, 75 flipped around is 57, then you have the 407, makes me think if that was their intention, at Norwood Junction you also have the 157 which would give it some more reasoning for the number too. As for the 407, it would be fine as really, but perhaps rather than West Croydon make it terminate at Croydon Town Centre. As the 457 was planned to go via Old Town, interchanges at West Croydon could still absolutely work, and would give the 407 a " Town Centre to Town Centre " look, which could benefit it at a reduced state. If the route via Old Town ever does happen it might be better to reroute the 410 from Reeves Corner that way to South Croydon Garage, reroute the 407 at Wallington Green to Wallington Station and extend the 403 from West Croydon to Sutton. So we'd have something along the lines of - 403: Warlingham Sainsbury's -> Sutton Town Centre 407: Wallington Station -> Croydon Town Centre 410: Wallington Shotfield -> South Croydon Bus Garage Doesn't look too bad, but you'd need to reroute a route along the 410s routing past East Croydon To Norwood Junction then Norwood Junction to just before Crystal Palace Station. Perhaps with the 457 idea I had you could make it go along the 410s routing instead of following the 157 until Reeves Corner? That way the East Croydon connection isn't cut off either.
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Post by randomy on Jul 19, 2024 12:52:38 GMT
186: Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Edgware, extended to New Barnet Station via routes 384 and 107 239: New route between Harrow Weald and Brent Cross West via College Avenue, Belmont and 186 to Brent Cross. Using double decker buses 384: Withdrawn between Edgware and Stirling Corner, extended to Borehamwood, Well End via Furzehill Road, Elstree & Borehamwood Station and Borehamwood Tesco. Rerouted via Pricklers Hill, Longmore Avenue and York Road instead of Station Road
383: Rerouted via Crescent Road instead of East Barnet Road
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Post by vjaska on Jul 19, 2024 13:02:58 GMT
186: Withdrawn between Brent Cross and Edgware, extended to New Barnet Station via routes 384 and 107 239: New route between Harrow Weald and Brent Cross West via College Avenue, Belmont and 186 to Brent Cross. Using double decker buses 384: Withdrawn between Edgware and Stirling Corner, extended to Borehamwood, Well End via Furzehill Road, Elstree & Borehamwood Station and Borehamwood Tesco. Rerouted via Pricklers Hill, Longmore Avenue and York Road instead of Station Road 383: Rerouted via Crescent Road instead of East Barnet Road Could you provide reasoning and explanations for the proposals as it's not always obvious to understand why the changes are being proposed
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Post by greenboy on Jul 19, 2024 15:50:03 GMT
If the route via Old Town ever does happen it might be better to reroute the 410 from Reeves Corner that way to South Croydon Garage, reroute the 407 at Wallington Green to Wallington Station and extend the 403 from West Croydon to Sutton. So we'd have something along the lines of - 403: Warlingham Sainsbury's -> Sutton Town Centre 407: Wallington Station -> Croydon Town Centre 410: Wallington Shotfield -> South Croydon Bus Garage Doesn't look too bad, but you'd need to reroute a route along the 410s routing past East Croydon To Norwood Junction then Norwood Junction to just before Crystal Palace Station. Perhaps with the 457 idea I had you could make it go along the 410s routing instead of following the 157 until Reeves Corner? That way the East Croydon connection isn't cut off either. The 410 would be Crystal Palace to Reeves Corner as it is now and then to South Croydon Garage via Old Town.
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Post by bluepuffy on Jul 19, 2024 16:10:00 GMT
So we'd have something along the lines of - 403: Warlingham Sainsbury's -> Sutton Town Centre 407: Wallington Station -> Croydon Town Centre 410: Wallington Shotfield -> South Croydon Bus Garage Doesn't look too bad, but you'd need to reroute a route along the 410s routing past East Croydon To Norwood Junction then Norwood Junction to just before Crystal Palace Station. Perhaps with the 457 idea I had you could make it go along the 410s routing instead of following the 157 until Reeves Corner? That way the East Croydon connection isn't cut off either. The 410 would be Crystal Palace to Reeves Corner as it is now and then to South Croydon Garage via Old Town. At that point you may as well just extend the 312 to Crystal Palace via the 410s routing between Norwood Junction and Crystal Palace then, better yet, I don't think the 410 needs to be cut or extended, I think it just needs a slight route rework so it can take longer buses.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 19, 2024 16:25:15 GMT
The 410 would be Crystal Palace to Reeves Corner as it is now and then to South Croydon Garage via Old Town. At that point you may as well just extend the 312 to Crystal Palace via the 410s routing between Norwood Junction and Crystal Palace then, better yet, I don't think the 410 needs to be cut or extended, I think it just needs a slight route rework so it can take longer buses. I don't see why you need to involve the 312 and there's not much chance of longer buses on the 410 unless the route is changed.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 19, 2024 16:28:17 GMT
The 410 would be Crystal Palace to Reeves Corner as it is now and then to South Croydon Garage via Old Town. At that point you may as well just extend the 312 to Crystal Palace via the 410s routing between Norwood Junction and Crystal Palace then, better yet, I don't think the 410 needs to be cut or extended, I think it just needs a slight route rework so it can take longer buses. Personally, if Croydon could find more stand space from somewhere (remove Delta Point and extend the bus station would be my idea), I'd cut the 410 back to West Croydon and leave it as it is - the most popular and core section is between Croydon & Palace and something else should, IMO, take over the 410's Croydon to Wallington section like the 433 - lower frequency but bigger buses to compensate and the 433 is reliable enough to cope plus it frees up stand space around the Park Street area for something else. You can't have the 410 & 312 running together over the same route as it would overdoing it somewhat - 312 via Church Road is doable if necessary but not via Auckland Road
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Post by bluepuffy on Jul 19, 2024 16:35:15 GMT
At that point you may as well just extend the 312 to Crystal Palace via the 410s routing between Norwood Junction and Crystal Palace then, better yet, I don't think the 410 needs to be cut or extended, I think it just needs a slight route rework so it can take longer buses. Personally, if Croydon could find more stand space from somewhere (remove Delta Point and extend the bus station would be my idea), I'd cut the 410 back to West Croydon and leave it as it is - the most popular and core section is between Croydon & Palace and something else should, IMO, take over the 410's Croydon to Wallington section like the 433 - lower frequency but bigger buses to compensate and the 433 is reliable enough to cope plus it frees up stand space around the Park Street area for something else. You can't have the 410 & 312 running together over the same route as it would overdoing it somewhat - 312 via Church Road is doable if necessary but not via Auckland Road Perhaps we should mess with TfL and reroute the 312 along the 410s routing from Croydon Town Centre (headed towards East Croydon) until Purley Way, then following the S4s routing, and renumber it the 455? Jokes aside, I think the Palace -> Croydon section is definitely the most needed part, but a bus would need to fill the 410s shoes or else the Wallington to Croydon part will cause great trouble on the 407. The two options I've seen floating around are the 403 and 433, and I'd much prefer the 403 as a local. It would benefit the 407 in a number of ways and restore an old link. If any route that runs through Sanderstead deserves and extension though, it's the 359. Extend it via Plough Lane and Foresters Drive then the old 455 routing to Wallington Station. Selsdon not having a connection to Sutton without going through Croydon or waiting for the 412 into Purley is something that baffles me.
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Post by Connor on Jul 20, 2024 11:01:48 GMT
I've got a few ideas for huge and delusional changes in the SE London area but ones that I think are long over due to reduce duplication where not required and increase capacity where needed:
·Cut the 161 back to Woolwich and extend southwards to Orpington via the 61. Would support the 51 between Woolwich and Orpington.
· 61 cut back between Chislehurst and Orpington, rerouted at Orpington, Perry Hall Road to terminate at Sidcup High Street via St Mary Cray, Crittalls Corner, A20 and Queen Marys Hospital. Routing between Locksbottom and Orpington swapped with the 358 to make that route more reliable.
·The 291 is cut back at Woolwich and extended to North Greenwich via the current 161 route.
·53 rerouted at Woolwich via more direct route to Plumstead Bus Garage via A206/ Plumstead Road.
·The 99 to replace the 53 between Woolwich- Plumstead Common and Plumstead Station
·422 rerouted to serve Kings Highway (served for the first time), Plumstead Common, Griffin Road then normal LOR at Plumstead Station instead of Plumstead High Street.
·301 split into two routes at Thamesmead; The western section is merged with the 178 to create a Lewisham to Thamesmead route The eastern section is extended from Bexleyheath to Sidcup Station via the 492 to create a Thamesmead to Sidcup route. Frequency decrease on this section due to the SL3 and 229.
·492 is extended from Bexleyheath to Woolwich via Welling, Shooters Hill, Shrewsbury Lane, then via the current 244 to Woolwich. Also rerouted via the Crayford Road and Dartford Road, as well as running fast between Dartford - Bluewater as the 96 used to do. Supports the 96 between Woolwich and Bluewater. Would recieve a singificant frequency increase.
·428 to be rerouted between Crayford- Dartford- Bluewater via the current 492 (Shepherds Lane, Chastillian Road, stopping at all stops ong Stone/London Road/Greenhithe)
·244 is rerouted at Woolwich to QE Hospital via the current 291 route. At Abbey Wood, it merges with the B11 to create one route from QE Hospital to Bexleyheath. The B11 is no more.
·472 rerouted at Harrow Manorway roundabout to run fast via the A206 (stopping at Belvedere) then terminating at Erith.
·160 is cut back to Horn Park, Alnwick Road (current B15 terminus) and routeing swapped at Edgebury to run via the current 162 route
·162 swapped with the more direct 160 routing at Edgebury and converted to double deckers
·B15 is rerouted at Yorkshire Grey Roundabout to terminate at Catford Bridge. At the other end, the route is rerouted at Welling to run via Welling Station, Wickham Street (served for the first time), Lodge Hill (trees trimmed), Brampton Road, Knee Hill in one direction and New Road in the other to terminate at the old 244/472 stand at Abbey Wood Station. Route is double decked. Lots of new links from Catford Bridge to Abbey Wood and a new orbital route for SE London.
·126 extended to Bexleyheath Shopping Centre via Eltham Station, Rochester Way then the current B15. Hail and Ride section converted to fixed stops and route double decked.
·B16 and 335 merged into one route running from North Greenwich to Bexleyheath Bus Garage. At Kidbrooke Station, route is diverted to run fast via the A2 and Blackwall Tunnel South Approach to North Greenwich, only stopping at Boord Street. Route is double decked. Provides much needed relief to the 132.
·323 extended from Canning Town to Kidbrooke, Moorehead Way via the Silvertown Tunnel and then the current 335.
·69 extended to North Greenwich via the Silvertown Tunnel. Routing swapped with the 158 in Stratford/Maryland to be more direct and serve Stratford Station properly in both directions.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 20, 2024 11:49:32 GMT
I've got a few ideas for huge and delusional changes in the SE London area but ones that I think are long over due to reduce duplication where not required and increase capacity where needed: ·Cut the 161 back to Woolwich and extend southwards to Orpington via the 61. Would support the 51 between Woolwich and Orpington. · 61 cut back between Chislehurst and Orpington, rerouted at Orpington, Perry Hall Road to terminate at Sidcup High Street via St Mary Cray, Crittalls Corner, A20 and Queen Marys Hospital. Routing between Locksbottom and Orpington swapped with the 358 to make that route more reliable. ·The 291 is cut back at Woolwich and extended to North Greenwich via the current 161 route. ·53 rerouted at Woolwich via more direct route to Plumstead Bus Garage via A206/ Plumstead Road. ·The 99 to replace the 53 between Woolwich- Plumstead Common and Plumstead Station ·422 rerouted to serve Kings Highway (served for the first time), Plumstead Common, Griffin Road then normal LOR at Plumstead Station instead of Plumstead High Street. ·301 split into two routes at Thamesmead; The western section is merged with the 178 to create a Lewisham to Thamesmead route The eastern section is extended from Bexleyheath to Sidcup Station via the 492 to create a Thamesmead to Sidcup route. Frequency decrease on this section due to the SL3 and 229. ·492 is extended from Bexleyheath to Woolwich via Welling, Shooters Hill, Shrewsbury Lane, then via the current 244 to Woolwich. Also rerouted via the Crayford Road and Dartford Road, as well as running fast between Dartford - Bluewater as the 96 used to do. Supports the 96 between Woolwich and Bluewater. Would recieve a singificant frequency increase. ·428 to be rerouted between Crayford- Dartford- Bluewater via the current 492 (Shepherds Lane, Chastillian Road, stopping at all stops ong Stone/London Road/Greenhithe) ·244 is rerouted at Woolwich to QE Hospital via the current 291 route. At Abbey Wood, it merges with the B11 to create one route from QE Hospital to Bexleyheath. The B11 is no more. ·472 rerouted at Harrow Manorway roundabout to run fast via the A206 (stopping at Belvedere) then terminating at Erith. ·160 is cut back to Horn Park, Alnwick Road (current B15 terminus) and routeing swapped at Edgebury to run via the current 162 route ·162 swapped with the more direct 160 routing at Edgebury and converted to double deckers ·B15 is rerouted at Yorkshire Grey Roundabout to terminate at Catford Bridge. At the other end, the route is rerouted at Welling to run via Welling Station, Wickham Street (served for the first time), Lodge Hill (trees trimmed), Brampton Road, Knee Hill in one direction and New Road in the other to terminate at the old 244/472 stand at Abbey Wood Station. Route is double decked. Lots of new links from Catford Bridge to Abbey Wood and a new orbital route for SE London. ·126 extended to Bexleyheath Shopping Centre via Eltham Station, Rochester Way then the current B15. Hail and Ride section converted to fixed stops and route double decked. ·B16 and 335 merged into one route running from North Greenwich to Bexleyheath Bus Garage. At Kidbrooke Station, route is diverted to run fast via the A2 and Blackwall Tunnel South Approach to North Greenwich, only stopping at Boord Street. Route is double decked. Provides much needed relief to the 132. ·323 extended from Canning Town to Kidbrooke, Moorehead Way via the Silvertown Tunnel and then the current 335. ·69 extended to North Greenwich via the Silvertown Tunnel. Routing swapped with the 158 in Stratford/Maryland to be more direct and serve Stratford Station properly in both directions. I agree about extending the 161 to Orpington and I have suggested it before. Whilst the frequency might be a bit excessive on the Chislehurst to Orpington section but I would expect an Orpington to Eltham link to attract more usage. I think the 61 and 161 only terminate at Chislehurst because there is stand space there. I'm not sure about the 61 going to Sidcup though, I'd be inclined to send it to Ramsden replacing the 353 and giving a direct link to Bromley. I agree about the 291 but I think the 53 to Plumstead Common is fine as it is. I agree about the 178 to Thamesmead, certainly needs a direct link to Lewisham.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 20, 2024 12:42:55 GMT
I've got a few ideas for huge and delusional changes in the SE London area but ones that I think are long over due to reduce duplication where not required and increase capacity where needed: ·Cut the 161 back to Woolwich and extend southwards to Orpington via the 61. Would support the 51 between Woolwich and Orpington. · 61 cut back between Chislehurst and Orpington, rerouted at Orpington, Perry Hall Road to terminate at Sidcup High Street via St Mary Cray, Crittalls Corner, A20 and Queen Marys Hospital. Routing between Locksbottom and Orpington swapped with the 358 to make that route more reliable. ·The 291 is cut back at Woolwich and extended to North Greenwich via the current 161 route. ·53 rerouted at Woolwich via more direct route to Plumstead Bus Garage via A206/ Plumstead Road. ·The 99 to replace the 53 between Woolwich- Plumstead Common and Plumstead Station ·422 rerouted to serve Kings Highway (served for the first time), Plumstead Common, Griffin Road then normal LOR at Plumstead Station instead of Plumstead High Street. ·301 split into two routes at Thamesmead; The western section is merged with the 178 to create a Lewisham to Thamesmead route The eastern section is extended from Bexleyheath to Sidcup Station via the 492 to create a Thamesmead to Sidcup route. Frequency decrease on this section due to the SL3 and 229. ·492 is extended from Bexleyheath to Woolwich via Welling, Shooters Hill, Shrewsbury Lane, then via the current 244 to Woolwich. Also rerouted via the Crayford Road and Dartford Road, as well as running fast between Dartford - Bluewater as the 96 used to do. Supports the 96 between Woolwich and Bluewater. Would recieve a singificant frequency increase. ·428 to be rerouted between Crayford- Dartford- Bluewater via the current 492 (Shepherds Lane, Chastillian Road, stopping at all stops ong Stone/London Road/Greenhithe) ·244 is rerouted at Woolwich to QE Hospital via the current 291 route. At Abbey Wood, it merges with the B11 to create one route from QE Hospital to Bexleyheath. The B11 is no more. ·472 rerouted at Harrow Manorway roundabout to run fast via the A206 (stopping at Belvedere) then terminating at Erith. ·160 is cut back to Horn Park, Alnwick Road (current B15 terminus) and routeing swapped at Edgebury to run via the current 162 route ·162 swapped with the more direct 160 routing at Edgebury and converted to double deckers ·B15 is rerouted at Yorkshire Grey Roundabout to terminate at Catford Bridge. At the other end, the route is rerouted at Welling to run via Welling Station, Wickham Street (served for the first time), Lodge Hill (trees trimmed), Brampton Road, Knee Hill in one direction and New Road in the other to terminate at the old 244/472 stand at Abbey Wood Station. Route is double decked. Lots of new links from Catford Bridge to Abbey Wood and a new orbital route for SE London. ·126 extended to Bexleyheath Shopping Centre via Eltham Station, Rochester Way then the current B15. Hail and Ride section converted to fixed stops and route double decked. ·B16 and 335 merged into one route running from North Greenwich to Bexleyheath Bus Garage. At Kidbrooke Station, route is diverted to run fast via the A2 and Blackwall Tunnel South Approach to North Greenwich, only stopping at Boord Street. Route is double decked. Provides much needed relief to the 132. ·323 extended from Canning Town to Kidbrooke, Moorehead Way via the Silvertown Tunnel and then the current 335. ·69 extended to North Greenwich via the Silvertown Tunnel. Routing swapped with the 158 in Stratford/Maryland to be more direct and serve Stratford Station properly in both directions. Not local to these changes but a lot of these personally seem to cause more problems than solve such as merging routes together that on the face of it are wholly inappropriate to be merged into or the odd extension that might be a bit too long. I can see the merit in cutting the 61 back from Chislehurst though I think the 161 replacing it will have similar problems matching the frequency to that section of the 61 which is quieter than the rest of the route. If the 61 was cut back, I think it should be diverted to Ramsden Estate with the 353 diverted to Chislehurst over the current 61 with the 353’s 20 minute frequency being a better fit personally for that section and providing a link from Ramsden Estate to Bromley The 291 is an inappropriate replacement for the 161 as its main purpose is to provide the Woodlands Estate with a link into Woolwich rather than to link to North Greenwich. Woolwich gives you the DLR, Elizabeth line & National Rail services which would be far more appealing I’d imagine than trotting further on to Normal Greenwich The 301 was a successful change as mentioned by many on here so I don’t think any changes should be made to it. Two Thamesmead to Sidcup routes already exist so when there was only one not long ago so this change seems to add duplication (albeit in part not fully). The 229 & SL3 should keep their current frequencies - 229 is a busy route throughout whilst the SL3 has been a success according to others on here so don’t see the need or want to give them frequency decreases. I’d make no changes to the 428 or 492 outside of exploring a frequency increase to the 492 up to every 20 minutes. In any case, I don’t agree with swapping the 160 & 162 but you will need to swap the BYD Enviro 400’s off the 160 as they wouldn’t be able to serve the 162 section due to the length of them. I also don’t agree with swapping the 160 & B15 to Catford and I really don’t see anyone from Abbey Wood & other places over that way going to Catford when they not only have the Elizabeth line & National Rail on their doorstep, much quicker rides to the DLR & Jubilee Line already exist for them. The 335 should be left unaltered - again it’s another route that was well received by locals and in any case, I don’t think the B16 is a suitable candidate to merge into it. I support deckers for the current B16 though. The 69 already has enough on its plate without extending it further. There are more achievable options to go through the tunnel to South East London.
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bx04myt
Cleaner
RIP 73 Bendy Buses :(
Posts: 13
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Post by bx04myt on Jul 20, 2024 14:08:33 GMT
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