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Post by Busboy105 on Aug 8, 2024 18:24:17 GMT
U9: Restructured to start/terminate at Harefield West with a double run at Harefield Hospital Why?
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 8, 2024 18:42:43 GMT
U9: Restructured to start/terminate at Harefield West with a double run at Harefield Hospital Why? My thoughts exactly. Outside London (a.k.a. 'the Real World') it is quite common for routes to operate to one point then another before returning direct, or in a one-way loop. It's an effiecient use of resources, saves wasted mileage - and for some routes, it ensures they remain viable.
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Post by randomy on Aug 8, 2024 19:00:27 GMT
U9: Restructured to start/terminate at Harefield West with a double run at Harefield Hospital Why? It would give Harefield West a bus link to Uxbridge and be a faster service from Harefield Hospital to Uxbridge
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Post by greenboy on Aug 8, 2024 20:32:56 GMT
It would give Harefield West a bus link to Uxbridge and be a faster service from Harefield Hospital to Uxbridge I can understand your thinking but it would push costs up and might mean a reduction in frequency to pay for it?
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Post by YX18KVJ (DLE30221) on Aug 8, 2024 21:31:49 GMT
It would give Harefield West a bus link to Uxbridge and be a faster service from Harefield Hospital to Uxbridge I can understand your thinking but it would push costs up and might mean a reduction in frequency to pay for it? The U9 doesn't need a double run.What it needs is an extension to Rickmansworth with a frequency bump to 3bph.
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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 8, 2024 22:35:04 GMT
-413 extension to Kingston Hall Road -Section between Grand Drive/Cannon Hill Lane and Morden Station withdrawn -Route now serves Motspur Park Station, New Malden Station, Kingston Grove with new Hail & Ride section on Hawks Road and Kingston Hall Road, where there's immediate interchange with 85 and 371 + walking interchange to numerous other bus routes. -Route decreases time between Lower Morden to Kingston on public transport -Route would decrease cars going from areas of Sutton, Lower Morden, Motspur Park to Kingston. -Serves 3 schools, Primary & Secondary, on the extension. -Serves new housing development: Kingston Grove. Couple of issues with this. • Lowering capacity on Hillcross Avenue would prove problematic. It can be very busy in the peaks. The 293 would also have to be reduced to 10.9m max, lowering capacity overall. • There is a traffic gate on Crossway which prevents large vehicles serving the residential roads there, not sure if the council would be open to removing it as it specifically ensures lorries don’t use the area as a cut through to the A3. • Dickerage Lane has a single lane bridge, it may not be suitable for buses. • It may be easier to slightly restructure the K5s route to serve the Kingston Grove development, removing it from the Norbiton Church stop. There are plenty of other options here and a minor frequency increase would better serve Motspur Park.
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 9, 2024 7:49:02 GMT
It would give Harefield West a bus link to Uxbridge and be a faster service from Harefield Hospital to Uxbridge Harefield West does have a bus link to Uxbridge - it just goes via Harefield Hospital first. And on the way back, Harefield West gets the shorter journey, so it balances out.
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hk4
Cleaner
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Post by hk4 on Aug 9, 2024 11:14:07 GMT
-413 extension to Kingston Hall Road -Section between Grand Drive/Cannon Hill Lane and Morden Station withdrawn -Route now serves Motspur Park Station, New Malden Station, Kingston Grove with new Hail & Ride section on Hawks Road and Kingston Hall Road, where there's immediate interchange with 85 and 371 + walking interchange to numerous other bus routes. -Route decreases time between Lower Morden to Kingston on public transport -Route would decrease cars going from areas of Sutton, Lower Morden, Motspur Park to Kingston. -Serves 3 schools, Primary & Secondary, on the extension. -Serves new housing development: Kingston Grove. Couple of issues with this. • Lowering capacity on Hillcross Avenue would prove problematic. It can be very busy in the peaks. The 293 would also have to be reduced to 10.9m max, lowering capacity overall. • There is a traffic gate on Crossway which prevents large vehicles serving the residential roads there, not sure if the council would be open to removing it as it specifically ensures lorries don’t use the area as a cut through to the A3. • Dickerage Lane has a single lane bridge, it may not be suitable for buses. • It may be easier to slightly restructure the K5s route to serve the Kingston Grove development, removing it from the Norbiton Church stop. There are plenty of other options here and a minor frequency increase would better serve Motspur Park. I'm aware of the Crossway width restrictions and there are definitely alternatives to them - such as signage stopping HGVs and Cameras, which are already present at the traffic lights, meaning only software updates needed on those. Another possibility to the 293 is having the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane - and then making the 293 full DD operation to cover capacity reduction on Hillcross Avenue/Links Avenue. I believe the Dickerage Lane bridge is wide enough for 413's current allocation. If not, then the route could continue down Kenley Road, and heading on to Gloucester Road to rejoin the route. K5 is already inconvenient enough, having it go back down to the Kingston Grove development would lengthen the route even further. As the K5 is inconvenient for a lot of residents in Motspur Park, - hence why people drive or use the train a lot - a frequency increase on the K5 would most likely not be beneficial.
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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 9, 2024 11:25:10 GMT
Couple of issues with this. • Lowering capacity on Hillcross Avenue would prove problematic. It can be very busy in the peaks. The 293 would also have to be reduced to 10.9m max, lowering capacity overall. • There is a traffic gate on Crossway which prevents large vehicles serving the residential roads there, not sure if the council would be open to removing it as it specifically ensures lorries don’t use the area as a cut through to the A3. • Dickerage Lane has a single lane bridge, it may not be suitable for buses. • It may be easier to slightly restructure the K5s route to serve the Kingston Grove development, removing it from the Norbiton Church stop. There are plenty of other options here and a minor frequency increase would better serve Motspur Park. I'm aware of the Crossway width restrictions and there are definitely alternatives to them - such as signage stopping HGVs and Cameras, which are already present at the traffic lights, meaning only software updates needed on those. Another possibility to the 293 is having the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane - and then making the 293 full DD operation to cover capacity reduction on Hillcross Avenue/Links Avenue. I believe the Dickerage Lane bridge is wide enough for 413's current allocation. If not, then the route could continue down Kenley Road, and heading on to Gloucester Road to rejoin the route. K5 is already inconvenient enough, having it go back down to the Kingston Grove development would lengthen the route even further. As the K5 is inconvenient for a lot of residents in Motspur Park, - hence why people drive or use the train a lot - a frequency increase on the K5 would most likely not be beneficial. Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area.
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hk4
Cleaner
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Post by hk4 on Aug 9, 2024 11:52:06 GMT
I'm aware of the Crossway width restrictions and there are definitely alternatives to them - such as signage stopping HGVs and Cameras, which are already present at the traffic lights, meaning only software updates needed on those. Another possibility to the 293 is having the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane - and then making the 293 full DD operation to cover capacity reduction on Hillcross Avenue/Links Avenue. I believe the Dickerage Lane bridge is wide enough for 413's current allocation. If not, then the route could continue down Kenley Road, and heading on to Gloucester Road to rejoin the route. K5 is already inconvenient enough, having it go back down to the Kingston Grove development would lengthen the route even further. As the K5 is inconvenient for a lot of residents in Motspur Park, - hence why people drive or use the train a lot - a frequency increase on the K5 would most likely not be beneficial. Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area. I think having most of the 413 extension as Hail and Ride isn't too much of a problem. As it's got a high density of residential areas along the route, people need it to stop where they need it. I routed it up Blakes Lane, which would definitely need fixed stops due to the narrow roads.
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Post by bluepuffy on Aug 9, 2024 12:15:42 GMT
I'm aware of the Crossway width restrictions and there are definitely alternatives to them - such as signage stopping HGVs and Cameras, which are already present at the traffic lights, meaning only software updates needed on those. Another possibility to the 293 is having the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane - and then making the 293 full DD operation to cover capacity reduction on Hillcross Avenue/Links Avenue. I believe the Dickerage Lane bridge is wide enough for 413's current allocation. If not, then the route could continue down Kenley Road, and heading on to Gloucester Road to rejoin the route. K5 is already inconvenient enough, having it go back down to the Kingston Grove development would lengthen the route even further. As the K5 is inconvenient for a lot of residents in Motspur Park, - hence why people drive or use the train a lot - a frequency increase on the K5 would most likely not be beneficial. Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area. The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 9, 2024 12:45:37 GMT
Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area. The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. Plus that it and the S4 have taken up stand space in Sutton which is in short supply. The fact thou its restricted to small SDs makes it hard to join to another route. If a stand is ever created at the new hospital then it could continue to there to provide some new links but even those would be very similar to the 80.
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Post by bluepuffy on Aug 9, 2024 13:02:13 GMT
The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. Plus that it and the S4 have taken up stand space in Sutton which is in short supply. The fact thou its restricted to small SDs makes it hard to join to another route. If a stand is ever created at the new hospital then it could continue to there to provide some new links but even those would be very similar to the 80. Is there genuinely anywhere the 470 could go past Sutton? The only options are Belmont and Banstead really, unless you want it to go back towards Epsom or mirror the S4 towards Wallington or something. The only way it can truly go is North, but a 30 minutes service in an area that's well serviced with 9-13 minutes routes wouldn't be able to provide well, anything.
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 9, 2024 13:25:01 GMT
Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area. The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. One of the problems is that TfL have sort of backed themselves into a corner now by making changes that shouldn't have happened. The S2 was an excellent idea, taking the busiest sections of the 470 and S4 and combining them into one higher frequency route (in fact I reckon it could be upped to 4bph), but they haven't sorted out the rest of the network properly. The S4 between Sutton and Roundshaw never actually needed an increase in the first place (the S2 chopped off the busiest section of the route from St Helier to Sutton and parallels it between Sutton and nearly Belmont too), it was declining in usage and the increase was pretty much done as a botch job to bin off the 455. Belmont and Carshalton Beeches definitely did need an improved service but the proposed 413/S3 changes on the original Sutton/Croydon consultation were a much better way of doing this. A much better way of putting buses where necessary would've been to introduce the S2 as now, combine the remaining sections of the 470 and S4 into a 2bph route between Morden and Roundshaw (with the 293 getting extended to Colliers Wood with double deckers as you suggest), and to have kept the 455 between Wallington and West Croydon. I would also have the 413/S3 changes go ahead as I have mentioned above.
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Post by bluepuffy on Aug 9, 2024 13:42:38 GMT
The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. One of the problems is that TfL have sort of backed themselves into a corner now by making changes that shouldn't have happened. The S2 was an excellent idea, taking the busiest sections of the 470 and S4 and combining them into one higher frequency route (in fact I reckon it could be upped to 4bph), but they haven't sorted out the rest of the network properly. The S4 between Sutton and Roundshaw never actually needed an increase in the first place (the S2 chopped off the busiest section of the route from St Helier to Sutton and parallels it between Sutton and nearly Belmont too), it was declining in usage and the increase was pretty much done as a botch job to bin off the 455. Belmont and Carshalton Beeches definitely did need an improved service but the proposed 413/S3 changes on the original Sutton/Croydon consultation were a much better way of doing this. A much better way of putting buses where necessary would've been to introduce the S2 as now, combine the remaining sections of the 470 and S4 into a 2bph route between Morden and Roundshaw (with the 293 getting extended to Colliers Wood with double deckers as you suggest), and to have kept the 455 between Wallington and West Croydon. I would also have the 413/S3 changes go ahead as I have mentioned above. I'd disagree with the 455 changes here purely for the fact that West Croydon Bus Station doesn't have enough space, The 455 honestly is a depressing case in of itself as it was perfectly adequate but it was just too long, with there being no real middle point to cut it, people from Wallington, Beddington and Waddon want it for West Croydon and Croydon Town Centre, but people from Old Lodge Lane, Purley, Pampisford and South Croydon also want it from West Croydon or Croydon Town Centre, the best choice imo would be to split it at Croydon Town Centre, or even extend a route from Purley in its absence (359 perhaps, infact, most certainly.) I agree with the rest of your statements however, if I recall at some point the S4 DID go to Morden in the late 1990s to early 2000s (which was in fact replaced by the 470s predecessor, huh.), so it has been proven that it could have worked.
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