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Post by vjaska on Aug 9, 2024 13:46:21 GMT
The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. One of the problems is that TfL have sort of backed themselves into a corner now by making changes that shouldn't have happened. The S2 was an excellent idea, taking the busiest sections of the 470 and S4 and combining them into one higher frequency route (in fact I reckon it could be upped to 4bph), but they haven't sorted out the rest of the network properly. The S4 between Sutton and Roundshaw never actually needed an increase in the first place (the S2 chopped off the busiest section of the route from St Helier to Sutton and parallels it between Sutton and nearly Belmont too), it was declining in usage and the increase was pretty much done as a botch job to bin off the 455. Belmont and Carshalton Beeches definitely did need an improved service but the proposed 413/S3 changes on the original Sutton/Croydon consultation were a much better way of doing this. A much better way of putting buses where necessary would've been to introduce the S2 as now, combine the remaining sections of the 470 and S4 into a 2bph route between Morden and Roundshaw (with the 293 getting extended to Colliers Wood with double deckers as you suggest), and to have kept the 455 between Wallington and West Croydon. I would also have the 413/S3 changes go ahead as I have mentioned above. I don't personally see the need of sending the 293 to Colliers Wood via the 470 - this section was always one of the quieter bits of the 470 and a double decker 20 minute route would be overkill over this section. A link should be kept but something similar to what the 470 provides now or just leave the 470 serving this section.
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hk4
Cleaner
Posts: 11
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Post by hk4 on Aug 9, 2024 14:03:55 GMT
Diverting the 163 via Cannon Hill Lane would leave a popular section of Grand Drive with only one bus route. If you’ve taken the 163 you know the majority getting on at Raynes Park alight by the kebab shop. Also TfL would likely have to use hail and ride on part of the route you suggest which as we know has been significantly scaled back in recent years. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gander Green Lane is given more fixed stops in the next few years. Like I said the K5 could very easily be restructured in the Motspur Park area to cover most of the route you suggest. The 470 could be restructure to pick up the Merton Park K5 area. The 470 should be restructured full stop tbh. Personally, I'd swap the 293 and 470 after Morden Station for starters so we have Epsom Hospital -> Colliers Wood whilst keeping the routes still servicing their known areas, could use this as an excuse to deck the 293 at some point as well with the added shoppers who may want to go to the shops at Merton. The S2 really did just kill anything the 470 had going for it, now it just serves the backroads of St Helier and Sutton Common, I wouldn't be surprised if the route doesn't make it past 2030 in these conditions, it needs a restructure to somewhere quickly, the problem is there isn't an agreed upon where as more common services serve the areas it could go to in an extension. That fully kills 470. 470 would be quite short, and all it would be doing is connecting people to other buses. Perhaps the 470 could be extended from Sutton to Stoneleigh station. This gives the Stoneleigh area a more prominent bus and a connection to Sutton, Morden without having to connect in Worcester Park or Ewell.
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Post by rjbarrett5 on Aug 9, 2024 14:15:12 GMT
N250: Extended to King’s Cross via 59 and 91. Renumbered N59.
159(N): Withdrawn.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 9, 2024 15:20:35 GMT
N250: Extended to King’s Cross via 59 and 91. Renumbered N59. 159(N): Withdrawn. No need for such a proposal IMO, hardly anyone from the south will need a link to Kings Cross and equally, the renumbering is unnecessary as well when the current number is perfectly adequate.
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 9, 2024 16:31:25 GMT
One of the problems is that TfL have sort of backed themselves into a corner now by making changes that shouldn't have happened. The S2 was an excellent idea, taking the busiest sections of the 470 and S4 and combining them into one higher frequency route (in fact I reckon it could be upped to 4bph), but they haven't sorted out the rest of the network properly. The S4 between Sutton and Roundshaw never actually needed an increase in the first place (the S2 chopped off the busiest section of the route from St Helier to Sutton and parallels it between Sutton and nearly Belmont too), it was declining in usage and the increase was pretty much done as a botch job to bin off the 455. Belmont and Carshalton Beeches definitely did need an improved service but the proposed 413/S3 changes on the original Sutton/Croydon consultation were a much better way of doing this. A much better way of putting buses where necessary would've been to introduce the S2 as now, combine the remaining sections of the 470 and S4 into a 2bph route between Morden and Roundshaw (with the 293 getting extended to Colliers Wood with double deckers as you suggest), and to have kept the 455 between Wallington and West Croydon. I would also have the 413/S3 changes go ahead as I have mentioned above. I'd disagree with the 455 changes here purely for the fact that West Croydon Bus Station doesn't have enough space, The 455 honestly is a depressing case in of itself as it was perfectly adequate but it was just too long, with there being no real middle point to cut it, people from Wallington, Beddington and Waddon want it for West Croydon and Croydon Town Centre, but people from Old Lodge Lane, Purley, Pampisford and South Croydon also want it from West Croydon or Croydon Town Centre, the best choice imo would be to split it at Croydon Town Centre, or even extend a route from Purley in its absence (359 perhaps, infact, most certainly.) I agree with the rest of your statements however, if I recall at some point the S4 DID go to Morden in the late 1990s to early 2000s (which was in fact replaced by the 470s predecessor, huh.), so it has been proven that it could have worked. A 3bph route like the 455 may be able to squeeze into West Croydon bus station, but it could be sent down to Croydon Town Centre if necessary. The 166/312/455 changes made sense and I wouldn't reverse these or extend anything else from Purley to Croydon (in fact I have a very different idea for a 359 extension which I'll post later). An idea I have to relieve congestion at West Croydon bus station is to swap the 250 and 367s stands, so the 250 would stand at Delta Point (starting and terminating in the bus station), and the 367 would stand in the bus station (with it reverting to terminating in the bus station).
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Post by vjaska on Aug 9, 2024 16:34:29 GMT
I'd disagree with the 455 changes here purely for the fact that West Croydon Bus Station doesn't have enough space, The 455 honestly is a depressing case in of itself as it was perfectly adequate but it was just too long, with there being no real middle point to cut it, people from Wallington, Beddington and Waddon want it for West Croydon and Croydon Town Centre, but people from Old Lodge Lane, Purley, Pampisford and South Croydon also want it from West Croydon or Croydon Town Centre, the best choice imo would be to split it at Croydon Town Centre, or even extend a route from Purley in its absence (359 perhaps, infact, most certainly.) I agree with the rest of your statements however, if I recall at some point the S4 DID go to Morden in the late 1990s to early 2000s (which was in fact replaced by the 470s predecessor, huh.), so it has been proven that it could have worked. A 3bph route like the 455 may be able to squeeze into West Croydon bus station, but it could be sent down to Croydon Town Centre if necessary. The 166/312/455 changes made sense and I wouldn't reverse these or extend anything else from Purley to Croydon (in fact I have a very different idea for a 359 extension which I'll post later). An idea I have to relieve congestion at West Croydon bus station is to swap the 250 and 367s stands, so the 250 stands at Delta Point (but still starts and terminates at the bus station), and the 367 stands in the bus station (meaning it reverts to terminating in the bus station). Regarding the 250 & 367 stands, I've been saying that since the beginning though the 250 has no need to finish at the bus station as everyone gets off at West Croydon and Poplar Walk. The stop on Poplar Walk should be the alighting point, stand at Delta Point and pick up first stop at the bus station. If you finish at the bus station, how are you proposing to reach the Delta Point stand?
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 9, 2024 16:41:09 GMT
One of the problems is that TfL have sort of backed themselves into a corner now by making changes that shouldn't have happened. The S2 was an excellent idea, taking the busiest sections of the 470 and S4 and combining them into one higher frequency route (in fact I reckon it could be upped to 4bph), but they haven't sorted out the rest of the network properly. The S4 between Sutton and Roundshaw never actually needed an increase in the first place (the S2 chopped off the busiest section of the route from St Helier to Sutton and parallels it between Sutton and nearly Belmont too), it was declining in usage and the increase was pretty much done as a botch job to bin off the 455. Belmont and Carshalton Beeches definitely did need an improved service but the proposed 413/S3 changes on the original Sutton/Croydon consultation were a much better way of doing this. A much better way of putting buses where necessary would've been to introduce the S2 as now, combine the remaining sections of the 470 and S4 into a 2bph route between Morden and Roundshaw (with the 293 getting extended to Colliers Wood with double deckers as you suggest), and to have kept the 455 between Wallington and West Croydon. I would also have the 413/S3 changes go ahead as I have mentioned above. I don't personally see the need of sending the 293 to Colliers Wood via the 470 - this section was always one of the quieter bits of the 470 and a double decker 20 minute route would be overkill over this section. A link should be kept but something similar to what the 470 provides now or just leave the 470 serving this section. The problem with that section at the moment is that the low frequency and lack of direct connections from busier areas drives most potential users away. A direct bus connection from the Lower Morden area to the shops in Colliers Wood would drive up usage. Additionally, there are a couple of new developments on Merantun Way, so I would suggest a few more stops should be added along the road, as the only stop on the road near the shops is too far away from the developments.
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 9, 2024 16:46:05 GMT
A 3bph route like the 455 may be able to squeeze into West Croydon bus station, but it could be sent down to Croydon Town Centre if necessary. The 166/312/455 changes made sense and I wouldn't reverse these or extend anything else from Purley to Croydon (in fact I have a very different idea for a 359 extension which I'll post later). An idea I have to relieve congestion at West Croydon bus station is to swap the 250 and 367s stands, so the 250 stands at Delta Point (but still starts and terminates at the bus station), and the 367 stands in the bus station (meaning it reverts to terminating in the bus station). Regarding the 250 & 367 stands, I've been saying that since the beginning though the 250 has no need to finish at the bus station as everyone gets off at West Croydon and Poplar Walk. The stop on Poplar Walk should be the alighting point, stand at Delta Point and pick up first stop at the bus station. If you finish at the bus station, how are you proposing to reach the Delta Point stand? Good point, the 250 should terminate at West Croydon station or Poplar Walk instead. I don't visit Croydon too often so I completely forgot that St Michael's Road cannot be accessed by buses leaving the bus station.
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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 9, 2024 16:53:55 GMT
I don't personally see the need of sending the 293 to Colliers Wood via the 470 - this section was always one of the quieter bits of the 470 and a double decker 20 minute route would be overkill over this section. A link should be kept but something similar to what the 470 provides now or just leave the 470 serving this section. The problem with that section at the moment is that the low frequency and lack of direct connections from busier areas drives most potential users away. A direct bus connection from the Lower Morden area to the shops in Colliers Wood would drive up usage. Additionally, there are a couple of new developments on Merantun Way, so I would suggest a few more stops should be added along the road, as the only stop on the road near the shops is too far away from the developments. Why though? There isn’t really anything in Colliers Wood that isn’t available elsewhere. Besides TfL would just argue that the hopper fare enables quick change between the 163/293 and the 470. Then there is also a tube connection from Morden which is easily accessible from Lower Morden. A direct bus connection isn’t necessary or needed.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 9, 2024 17:08:20 GMT
The 470 could replace the S3 between Sutton and Belmont as the 413 was going to do. Would need to go up to every 20 mins but it would allow the S3 to just focus on the backstreet section from Sutton to Malden Manor.
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 9, 2024 18:29:50 GMT
359 changes:
Extended from Purley to Wallington via Foxley Lane, Plough Lane, Foresters Drive, Sandy Lane South, Stafford Road, Woodcote Road and Manor Road, using the 455s old stand.
Small diversion on the double run in Selsdon, using Heathfield Vale to cut across to Selsdon Park Road, saving a couple of minutes (no stops are missed on Selsdon Park Road).
Frequency increased from every 45 mins to 2bph (every 30 mins), and PVR increased from 2 to 4.
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Post by bluepuffy on Aug 9, 2024 19:34:26 GMT
359 changes:
Extended from Purley to Wallington via Foxley Lane, Plough Lane, Foresters Drive, Sandy Lane South, Stafford Road, Woodcote Road and Manor Road, using the 455s old stand.
Small diversion on the double run in Selsdon, using Heathfield Vale to cut across to Selsdon Park Road, saving a couple of minutes (no stops are missed on Selsdon Park Road).
Frequency increased from every 45 mins to 2bph (every 30 mins), and PVR increased from 2 to 4. I've said this many times off the forum myself, the 359 is the perfect route to shoot somewhere, and Wallington would be the best option. A Selsdon link into Sutton would most likely be taken warmly and some pressure may be lifted off the 127 at peak times within Purley, along with the added help of the 612 existing. If it uses the exact same stops as the 154 as well, it would only be a 3 or so minute walk to Roundshaw proper, which I'm sure residents would be fine with considering the S4 used to be every 30 until March. The only thing that worries me is that Plough Lane does look quite slim in some areas, other then that it should be able to take the full length of the route considering the 154 and then the 157 can run along the same roads perfectly fine after Foresters Drive. I'd honestly say go even further and have it go down to Hackbridge and use the stand at Elm Road, it would be a bit of a weird ending for the terminal but it would save the stand at Wallington for any routes that need to curtail, meanwhile the stand at Hackbridge rarely ever sees 151s or 127s. (And yes, I am just saying this as it would be a similar route to the old 234 that ran between Hackbridge and Selsdon via the 127s routing however, though it shows a route like this can work.)
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Post by YY13VKP on Aug 9, 2024 20:02:05 GMT
359 changes:
Extended from Purley to Wallington via Foxley Lane, Plough Lane, Foresters Drive, Sandy Lane South, Stafford Road, Woodcote Road and Manor Road, using the 455s old stand.
Small diversion on the double run in Selsdon, using Heathfield Vale to cut across to Selsdon Park Road, saving a couple of minutes (no stops are missed on Selsdon Park Road).
Frequency increased from every 45 mins to 2bph (every 30 mins), and PVR increased from 2 to 4. I've said this many times off the forum myself, the 359 is the perfect route to shoot somewhere, and Wallington would be the best option. A Selsdon link into Sutton would most likely be taken warmly and some pressure may be lifted off the 127 at peak times within Purley, along with the added help of the 612 existing. If it uses the exact same stops as the 154 as well, it would only be a 3 or so minute walk to Roundshaw proper, which I'm sure residents would be fine with considering the S4 used to be every 30 until March. The only thing that worries me is that Plough Lane does look quite slim in some areas, other then that it should be able to take the full length of the route considering the 154 and then the 157 can run along the same roads perfectly fine after Foresters Drive. I'd honestly say go even further and have it go down to Hackbridge and use the stand at Elm Road, it would be a bit of a weird ending for the terminal but it would save the stand at Wallington for any routes that need to curtail, meanwhile the stand at Hackbridge rarely ever sees 151s or 127s. (And yes, I am just saying this as it would be a similar route to the old 234 that ran between Hackbridge and Selsdon via the 127s routing however, though it shows a route like this can work.) I like this idea mainly for the reasons you have mentioned above, currently there’s no link between Wallington and Selsdon/Addington Village so I feel this could be highly beneficial. And Plough Lane can take a full size bus especially considering that it’s on the 127‘s dead run route from C to Purley so double deckers go down there often! This was as of 2018 anyway, not sure if that’s changed since but I don’t see Plough Lane being an issue for a bus to travel down.
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Post by bluepuffy on Aug 9, 2024 20:49:40 GMT
I've said this many times off the forum myself, the 359 is the perfect route to shoot somewhere, and Wallington would be the best option. A Selsdon link into Sutton would most likely be taken warmly and some pressure may be lifted off the 127 at peak times within Purley, along with the added help of the 612 existing. If it uses the exact same stops as the 154 as well, it would only be a 3 or so minute walk to Roundshaw proper, which I'm sure residents would be fine with considering the S4 used to be every 30 until March. The only thing that worries me is that Plough Lane does look quite slim in some areas, other then that it should be able to take the full length of the route considering the 154 and then the 157 can run along the same roads perfectly fine after Foresters Drive. I'd honestly say go even further and have it go down to Hackbridge and use the stand at Elm Road, it would be a bit of a weird ending for the terminal but it would save the stand at Wallington for any routes that need to curtail, meanwhile the stand at Hackbridge rarely ever sees 151s or 127s. (And yes, I am just saying this as it would be a similar route to the old 234 that ran between Hackbridge and Selsdon via the 127s routing however, though it shows a route like this can work.) I like this idea mainly for the reasons you have mentioned above, currently there’s no link between Wallington and Selsdon/Addington Village so I feel this could be highly beneficial. And Plough Lane can take a full size bus especially considering that it’s on the 127‘s dead run route from C to Purley so double deckers go down there often! This was as of 2018 anyway, not sure if that’s changed since but I don’t see Plough Lane being an issue for a bus to travel down. The only current link is the 612 which, as stated, is a school route so it isn't exactly the best option. A faster link though would most likely be greatly appreciated by the communities however and could even see the 359 become 20 minutes or even 7 days a week if the patronage is high enough (This is one reason I would say bring it to Hackbridge, as it would not only serve a station that isn't on the Southern line, meaning swapping over from Southern to Southeastern / Thameslink would be easier, but also allow for people of Addington Village/Selsdon greater accessability towards Mitcham or Sutton. Not to mention if the Tramlink is down, the 359 could help those wanting to get from Mitcham Common to Addington Village, though it would probably be a low want, a want nevertheless. The 359 is what I fear the 470 could turn into, a route that is so open to be extended and changed, but doesn't seem like it will be any time soon, leaving it a route with so much potential but so little backing.
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Post by mrhk on Aug 9, 2024 21:19:35 GMT
E6 - Extension back to Greenford Station from Broadway. I know it had been cut back due to works at Greenford Station however the 105 has gone back to its stand at Greenford. No reason the E6 could not either.
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