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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 18:34:18 GMT
Anything that curtails the 157 is an easy no personally and I do think there are a lot more people who travel across Croydon the 157 then you might be giving credit for. South London already suffers from a lack of east to west links and the 157 (along with the 37) is an outlier. It also has a lot of corridors that allows it to get away with a higher running time and a longer length than other routes. Selhurst to South Croydon is a rather niche link to curtail the 157 for as well. The 157 should remain as it is IMO and there is arguably a case it’s frequency at all times should be reviewed - the fact it’s virtually identical to the 403 tells me someone hasn’t been paying attention to the 157.
South Croydon isn't really a "niche link" as you claim - the part of Brighton Road that the 403 serves has shops and particularly quite a few restaurants close by - and the area is known in the borough for it. For those who can afford it, Whitgift School is also nearby.
The 410 somewhat duplicates the 157 in points of interest - they both serve Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction, West Croydon and Wallington, and also both pass close to Waddon Station, albeit along different corridors.
Southern Rail further duplicates the 157 - in a partial manner. There is a railway line that links Wallington-Waddon-West Croydon-Selhurst without changing.
Yes, the 157 could use an increase but this isn't a problem unique to the 157. The 410, 450, 468 all need it too, amongst others. The 403 merits its frequency as it's the only route along much of its corridor - something not true of the 157.
So overall I disagree that the 157 can't be changed.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 15, 2024 18:43:55 GMT
Anything that curtails the 157 is an easy no personally and I do think there are a lot more people who travel across Croydon the 157 then you might be giving credit for. South London already suffers from a lack of east to west links and the 157 (along with the 37) is an outlier. It also has a lot of corridors that allows it to get away with a higher running time and a longer length than other routes. Selhurst to South Croydon is a rather niche link to curtail the 157 for as well. The 157 should remain as it is IMO and there is arguably a case it’s frequency at all times should be reviewed - the fact it’s virtually identical to the 403 tells me someone hasn’t been paying attention to the 157.
South Croydon isn't really a "niche link" as you claim - the part of Brighton Road that the 403 serves has shops and particularly quite a few restaurants close by - and the area is known in the borough for it. For those who can afford it, Whitgift School is also nearby.
The 410 somewhat duplicates the 157 in points of interest - they both serve Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction, West Croydon and Wallington, and also both pass close to Waddon Station, albeit along different corridors.
Southern Rail further duplicates the 157 - in a partial manner. There is a railway line that links Wallington-Waddon-West Croydon-Selhurst without changing.
Yes, the 157 could use an increase but this isn't a problem unique to the 157. The 410, 450, 468 all need it too, amongst others. The 403 merits its frequency as it's the only route along much of its corridor - something not true of the 157.
So overall I disagree that the 157 can't be changed.
I think from a South Norwood point of view and east west link across Croydon is preferable to an north south one. Trains take you south, 312 takes you south, further along 468 takes south |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 15, 2024 18:52:51 GMT
Anything that curtails the 157 is an easy no personally and I do think there are a lot more people who travel across Croydon the 157 then you might be giving credit for. South London already suffers from a lack of east to west links and the 157 (along with the 37) is an outlier. It also has a lot of corridors that allows it to get away with a higher running time and a longer length than other routes. Selhurst to South Croydon is a rather niche link to curtail the 157 for as well. The 157 should remain as it is IMO and there is arguably a case it’s frequency at all times should be reviewed - the fact it’s virtually identical to the 403 tells me someone hasn’t been paying attention to the 157.
South Croydon isn't really a "niche link" as you claim - the part of Brighton Road that the 403 serves has shops and particularly quite a few restaurants close by - and the area is known in the borough for it. For those who can afford it, Whitgift School is also nearby.
The 410 somewhat duplicates the 157 in points of interest - they both serve Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction, West Croydon and Wallington, and also both pass close to Waddon Station, albeit along different corridors.
Southern Rail further duplicates the 157 - in a partial manner. There is a railway line that links Wallington-Waddon-West Croydon-Selhurst without changing.
Yes, the 157 could use an increase but this isn't a problem unique to the 157. The 410, 450, 468 all need it too, amongst others. The 403 merits its frequency as it's the only route along much of its corridor - something not true of the 157.
So overall I disagree that the 157 can't be changed.
I never said South Croydon is a niche link - what I actually said is a Selhurst to Croydon link is niche compared to the current 157’s you would be breaking and I stand by that opinion. I’m aware of what is on Brighton Road and have traversed the road hundreds of times over the years including some of the shops. The 410 is already busy enough and isn’t designed to worry about what the 157 is doing given its purpose is linking the residential areas off the main roads with the major towns and stations it passes. Had you of proposed a curtailment in Croydon of the 410, I’d be more sympathetic as I think it’s more a routing of two halves unlike the 157 but even then, both can justify their existence without being curtailed South London relies on its bus network more than other parts of London because a lack of tube coverage and an unreliability to the rail network. I don’t think it’s enough justification to use Southern to cut a bus route. I never said its problem unique to the 157 but the topic at hand is the 157 and it was worth mentioning given others have argued it should be increased. I also never suggested that the 403 doesn’t merit its existing frequency - it’s useful in its own right but what I stand by is I don’t think it should be matching what the 157 has in its own frequency across the board. |
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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 19:15:27 GMT
Ultimately, my main point was that bus links from Selhurst specifically cannot take you to the south of the borough.
Actually, what I'd prefer to the 403, is for the 466 to run from CaterhamOTH to Crystal Palace.
The 466 could then justify its high frequency (which is a little wasted to Addington Village) and perhaps the 157 (or another route) could take over the section from Croydon to Addington Village.
The 466 would similarly help the 75 at Nestle/Whitgift in the way I described.
If I was a resident in Selhurst with the station as an option, I'd wonder why I have two direct ways of getting to Wallington and zero direct ways of getting to Purley.
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Post by greenboy on Oct 15, 2024 19:24:26 GMT
50 75 468 rerouted northbound via St Michaels Road direct to stop B1 in the bus station, instead of 75 circling the bus station and 50/468 bypassing. Additionally the traffic lights at Wellesley Road changed into Dutch-style real time traffic signals, reducing unnecessary wait at all hours whilst still prioritising trams. I've had a bit of a think about this. As the main reason the 75 stops at the bus station is to share a stop with the 157 so that Selhurst-bound passengers can choose from both routes, what I'd do is... - Withdraw 157 between West Croydon and Crystal Palace. It becomes Morden to West Croydon
- Extend 403 from West Croydon to Crystal Palace. Essentially a swap with 157, the 403 becomes Warlingham to Crystal Palace
- Have the 75 and 403 serve the stop outside Delta Point that 50 and 468 serve (stop WP) - neither 75 nor 403 would serve the bus station
- As stop WP is quite small, convert the 367 stand to a new stop WP and extend the stop. Also, put in a proper bus stop shelter here (if Croydon Council is still capable of that
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- Convert the Home Office stop WH to a stand for the 367, with the first stop changing to Whitgift Centre stop WJ (currently its second stop)
The disadvantages here are - Bromley-bound 367s would no longer serve the bus station (Croydon-bound 367s would still serve it as the last stop)
- Broken links for some 157 passengers, although a lot of 157 passengers do get off at the bus station so I think the 403 swap can work
- Buses on routes 50 / 75 / 403 / 468 would need to cross a lane from the position of the 367's current stand to the northbound lane on Wellesley Road. Buses already have to do this from current stop WP but it's a bit tighter from the 367 stand.
- Stop WH is lost. However, hardly anyone alights or boards 50 / 194 / 198 from here as the main Whitgift Centre stops WJ and WK are only a short distance further on. I'm sure stop WH exists for unknown historical reasons but it seems unnecessary now. I'm not sure why it is that those three specific routes serve it - perhaps, decades ago, the Home Office requested better accessibility from London Transport?
- The 403 becomes less reliable due to increased length
The advantages are - New link from Selhurst to South Croydon on the 403.
- The 403 is more frequent in the evenings than 157. They have the same frequencies at other times. This benefits evening passengers in Selhurst / Norwood / Palace
- Takes pressure off the 75, which already shares stops with 403 at the Nestle building stop KD and Whitgift Centre stop WM northbound. So passengers can board 403 towards Selhurst and Norwood Junction instead
- Further pressure is taken off the 75 as it no longer has to circle the bus station, reducing journey time and increasing reliability
- The 157 is very long route and 403 quite short in comparison (95 minutes vs 38 minutes according to londonbusroutes) so this evens them out and makes the 157 more reliable
- The bus station becomes much less congested - no 75 or 403. Also, 367 in one direction only.
I think you make some good points but it might be simpler to reroute the 157 towards Crystal Palace via Poplar Walk to serve the stop in Wellesley Road with the 50,75 and 468. The home office stop is rather pointless and would be better used as a stand although it would probably cause too much confusion the 367 finishing at West Croydon but not picking up there so the last stop would probably have to be outside the Whitgift Centre. |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 15, 2024 19:28:51 GMT
Ultimately, my main point was that bus links from Selhurst specifically cannot take you to the south of the borough. Actually, what I'd prefer to the 403, is for the 466 to run from CaterhamOTH to Crystal Palace. The 466 could then justify its high frequency (which is a little wasted to Addington Village) and perhaps the 157 (or another route) could take over the section from Croydon to Addington Village. The 466 would similarly help the 75 at Nestle/Whitgift in the way I described. If I was a resident in Selhurst with the station as an option, I'd wonder why I have two direct ways of getting to Wallington and zero direct ways of getting to Purley. Not 100% sure if your 2 ways are train/157 or 157/410. If the former you just reverse the situation. If the later, you only really have one, as if you are a resident of Selhurst, you are not getting across that railway to get a 410. |
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Post by PGAT on Oct 15, 2024 19:39:37 GMT
A Selhurst to Purley link has some merit although I don't see altering the 157's routeing which has been established and is very well used doing any good
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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 19:40:27 GMT
I think you make some good points but it might be simpler to reroute the 157 towards Crystal Palace via Poplar Walk to serve the stop in Wellesley Road with the 50,75 and 468. The home office stop is rather pointless and would be better used as a stand although it would probably cause too much confusion the 367 finishing at West Croydon but not picking up there so the last stop would probably have to be outside the Whitgift Centre. Thank you.
That is definitely a possibiility for the 157 and would be simpler. However, it wouldn't assist the 75 at Nestle/Whitgift nor would it provide a link to Brighton Road.
I just realised another advantage of my proposals - Whitehorse Road passengers would likely wait at Delta Point for 50/75/468/4th route. Reducing crowding on the busy single-decker 450 at the bus station.
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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 19:43:52 GMT
If I was a resident in Selhurst with the station as an option, I'd wonder why I have two direct ways of getting to Wallington and zero direct ways of getting to Purley. Not 100% sure if your 2 ways are train/157 or 157/410. If the former you just reverse the situation. It was the former. It doesn't really reverse the situation - with my revised network, I have one link to Wallington and one link to Brighton Road, diversifying my destination options. |
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Post by Unorm on Oct 15, 2024 20:11:34 GMT
-snipped 50 75 468 rerouted northbound via St Michaels Road -snipped- Disagree with this… What I like about the 50 & 468 is avoiding the traffic hotspots in Croydon which is probably why they are more popular for quick journeys. That is something I had in mind hence my mention of real time traffic signals, though I failed to explain that they're not fixed phases as is normal for most traffic signals globally (except perhaps here and there, Netherlands pretty much almost all signals are real time) Real time phasing means the wait time at a signal varies, it changes wait times on what it deems higher priority, in this case bus/trams as highest priority, and cyclists/pedestrians then regular traffic in it's home country of use - Netherlands. In practice it would take just as long or a dozen seconds longer I'd estimate but a minute at most compared to the current setup. The biggest benefit would be during quieter hours (I forgot to mention N68, oops) which would literally within a few seconds up to several seconds experience traffic lights go green. I don't wish to count how long the lights are red currently, waiting idly in the evening/night. Static traffic signal phases are definitely outdated, the downside is this system with it's use of multiple sensors and computerised does make it use more power. That is worth the cost on busy junctions to shave minutes of time. Now if SL6 was full-time it'd be worth testing if people would prefer the faster 468 or the convenience in SL6 since the full length of Whitehorse Road has no choice outside of mornings. -snipped Two stands in West Croydon Bus Station removed -snipped- Personally I would rather see stands on St Michaels Road, rather than one used outside Delta Point. This would obviously need to be used by routes going north along Wellesley Road such as 194, 367, 403 etc. This also reduces the number of buses turning into Station Road which can get extremely busy and be the cause of many delays. Never really understood why the 50 & 468 were taken out the bus station northbound. Why would you need to remove the 2 stans in the bus station? Existing buses seem to have little issues getting past the buses standing. I thought about St Michaels Road too, my roundabout reason is just to not have 250 from looping around to stand currently. I'd prefer sending it back to Town Centre if stand space permits it there. My second reason is that it's very awkward or not seemingly not doable (I'm no driver, I'm adopting a mindset of assuming what TfL deems safe or not) to serve stop B2 if a bus is already there at the stop, and forced to wait until it moves. This will also block any of the two buses on stand from moving if it coincides. Removing the stands removes that issue. It is very likely a bus would already be there once a 50 or 75 or 468 or a mix of them roll into the bus station. I also don't like to think how distant it would be from the wheelchair area to the pavement if doors are opened whilst behind the bus in front at the stop, which may mean the bus will take a few more minutes in total, adjusting when the bus in front leaves until the wheelchair is retracted. That is slower. I'd love it if I were wrong and 75s start using St Michaels Road as-is, though since it already doesn't, it may prove my point Was 50 468 removed just before the rebuild started or am I remembering wrong? 50 rerouted to stop at East Croydon Station in both directions. -snipped- The 50 could go via Landsdowne/Dingwall Road to serve East Croydon then use the Fairfield Halls stand and then go via Barclay Road and Addiscombe Grove to commence the return journey but I'm not sure it's worthwhile? I think rerouting the 50 and 468 through the bus station northbound would cause too many delays and I think the current arrangements, whilst not ideal, are the lesser of two evils. That is the exact roads I intended, I didn't mention as I felt there would be no misunderstanding if I didn't specify. Passenger wise it is undoubtedly more convenient interchanging in the bus station and a more accomodating (safer) atmosphere. If I didn't mention the Dutch-style traffic signals, and did 50 468 reroute as 75 does currently, that's a several minute penalty - going through two traffic lights that is fair in it's judgement to it's fixed phasing, so at worst would reach half the frequency of 468 or even 50. That indeed does not outweigh the benefit to cost ratio. My removal of 75 (and hypothetical 50 468 N68) circling would reduce conflict with traffic (and the almost impossible chance of a tri-axle if I circumnavigated the turn that failed it for X68 if I remember correctly?) and in general just more direct. Save every possible second possible culminating a couple minutes saved for the 75. The real winner is 75, if it can make it's frequency a little better than that's very good. Last I checked very long ago it was every 13-14, now presumably due to Lewisham works, every 14-15. Whilst it was more convenient for me (and others) to not walk to Delta Point (I would never if X68 worked both ways during the entire daytime, and almost no current 468 user wouldn't if said X68 was also high frequency, so every 12. Leaving only 50-specific passengers) it was not the end of the world or actively hostile like some stations in some countries can be. Edit: Forgot to mention bus station related delays as opposed to 50 468 having their own stop, but yeah that is also a factor against my proposal Also forgot about other intersections regarding the traffic lights, I'd generally replace those too, and preferably expand scope to various busy junctions. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 15, 2024 20:24:25 GMT
Ultimately, my main point was that bus links from Selhurst specifically cannot take you to the south of the borough. Actually, what I'd prefer to the 403, is for the 466 to run from CaterhamOTH to Crystal Palace. The 466 could then justify its high frequency (which is a little wasted to Addington Village) and perhaps the 157 (or another route) could take over the section from Croydon to Addington Village. The 466 would similarly help the 75 at Nestle/Whitgift in the way I described. If I was a resident in Selhurst with the station as an option, I'd wonder why I have two direct ways of getting to Wallington and zero direct ways of getting to Purley. How many people are specifically requesting a link to South Croydon or Purley? Is it just yourself or others? I would argue that it might be better to ask Southern why they withdraw the service south of East Croydon rather than making changes to bus services that IMO aren't neccesary and cause more harm than good. There was a direct train service not that long ago which stopped at Selhurst and went south of East Croydon to Caterham serving all stops until it was cut back to East Croydon. |
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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 20:37:20 GMT
How many people are specifically requesting a link to South Croydon or Purley? Is it just yourself or others? I would argue that it might be better to ask Southern why they withdraw the service south of East Croydon rather than making changes to bus services that IMO aren't neccesary and cause more harm than good. There was a direct train service not that long ago which stopped at Selhurst and went south of East Croydon to Caterham serving all stops until it was cut back to East Croydon. Diversifying direct destination options benefits people living in Selhurst.
How many people requested *two* different links to Wallington from Selhurst? Both the train and the 157? And yet they have zero to South Croydon.
Such a rail link *might* be restored if nationalisation occurs. I highly doubt that Southern themselves will restore the link they are motivated by profit and not social good, however much they are asked.
I have already laid out my reasons why my changes cause more good than harm, in my opinion. I'm even more convinced now that I realise there is a benefit to the 450 as well.
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Post by PGAT on Oct 15, 2024 20:50:25 GMT
How many people are specifically requesting a link to South Croydon or Purley? Is it just yourself or others? I would argue that it might be better to ask Southern why they withdraw the service south of East Croydon rather than making changes to bus services that IMO aren't neccesary and cause more harm than good. There was a direct train service not that long ago which stopped at Selhurst and went south of East Croydon to Caterham serving all stops until it was cut back to East Croydon. Diversifying direct destination options benefits people living in Selhurst.
How many people requested *two* different links to Wallington from Selhurst? Both the train and the 157? And yet they have zero to South Croydon.
Such a rail link *might* be restored if nationalisation occurs. I highly doubt that Southern themselves will restore the link they are motivated by profit and not social good, however much they are asked.
I have already laid out my reasons why my changes cause more good than harm, in my opinion. I'm even more convinced now that I realise there is a benefit to the 450 as well.
The issue is not privatisation, but rather the DfT micromanaging everything and forcing cuts and savings to be made which led to the curtailment to East Croydon but this is probably getting off topic |
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Post by omsar on Oct 15, 2024 21:15:06 GMT
The issue is not privatisation, but rather the DfT micromanaging everything and forcing cuts and savings to be made which led to the curtailment to East Croydon but this is probably getting off topic That's true. I'm highly doubtful that Southern themselves will restore the link, without the DfT asking them for a reversal, which adds to the case of using the 466 or 403 to replace the 157 between Croydon and Palace. I'd prefer the 466.
The routes that can most realistically replace the 466 between Croydon and Addington are the 157 or 264. Not the 250, as it is too long. It would be good to restore the 264 to Wellesley Road. I was strongly against the changes to the 250 / 264 / 405 / 412 / 433 that happened a few years ago.
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Post by abellion on Oct 15, 2024 21:24:57 GMT
The issue is not privatisation, but rather the DfT micromanaging everything and forcing cuts and savings to be made which led to the curtailment to East Croydon but this is probably getting off topic That's true. I'm highly doubtful that Southern themselves will restore the link, without the DfT asking them for a reversal, which adds to the case of using the 466 or 403 to replace the 157 between Croydon and Palace. I'd prefer the 466.
The routes that can most realistically replace the 466 between Croydon and Addington are the 157 or 264. Not the 250, as it is too long. It would be good to restore the 264 to Wellesley Road. I was strongly against the changes to the 250 / 264 / 405 / 412 / 433 that happened a few years ago.
The 264 would not be an appropriate route to extend to Addington, it works flawlessly as a short and vital route. I hated using it from WC because it was usually the busiest from the first stop with the 154/157 etc, it is similarly as busy in Mitcham and Tooting Broadway plus the hospital link. That being said the 264 should have never been cut back, there are no bus alternatives to the 264 for Croydon for 90% of the route and the tram hardly counts as the 264 doesn’t directly run into it outside of Croydon. The 250, 405, 412 and 433 are paralleled by other routes which go to their former destinations more so than the 264 which is why I think the 264 was the worst of those cuts |
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