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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 1, 2020 22:47:20 GMT
Suggestions for some changes to restructure routes 1, 45, 47, 172, 188, 199 and 381. 1 - Diverted away from Canada Water and effectively merged with the 172. Rerouted from South Bermondsey Station via Ilderton Road to Old Kent Road, then via the 172 to Brockley Rise. Serves the new developments at New Bermondsey, providing a direct link from here into Central London. Existing links are maintained as far as South Bermondsey - my revised 188 provides a more direct link from Canada Water to Waterloo. 45 - Extended from Elephant & Castle to Canada Water via route 1, replacing links to Canada Water, and relieving the busy section of the 1 around Bermondsey. 47 - Cut back from Shoreditch to City Hall, and instead rerouted to Elephant & Castle via route 188. Diverted between Surrey Quays and Deptford via route 199. Frequency increased, with the revised route replacing the 199 - the shortened section in Central London allows for improved reliability with this increase. 188 - Rerouted from City Hall to go via the 381, terminating at County Hall. Option to instead extend over Waterloo Bridge to Aldgate, using the 172's stand, which could replace the RV1's link towards London Bridge. Provides a more direct link from Waterloo to Canada Water and Greenwich, and shortened for reliability. Also cuts back capacity on the Euston-Waterloo corridor. 381 - Withdrawn between Waterloo and London Bridge, and instead extended to Shoreditch via the 47. 172 & 199 - Withdrawn. To be honest lots of that does seem very plausible. What I would say is that I don't think the loss of the link to Shoreditch would be mitigated if the 47 were cut back given how much patronage has plummeted on the northern end of the 47. I suspect if TfL sever that link they won't replace it. I agree with you it seems likely that the 188 would be rerouted to take a more direct routing via the 381 between Tower Bridge Road and Waterloo, I had a similar idea myself though I suspect that the 381 would simply be cut back to Canada Water. I've also thought that the 172 seems vulnerable to a potential merger with the 168 if TfL want to look at reducing bus flow on Waterloo Road then they may try to extend the 168 further down Old Kent Road to do away with the 172. I think a merger of the 168/172 would be too long to keep reliable, with the distance between Hampstead Heath and Brockley Rise. Merging the 1 & 172 instead, as mentioned, would create new links to developments at New Bermondsey. In my proposals, the 188 would also be diverted away from the Waterloo Road corridor, reducing bus flow there - the Waterloo-Elephant section would be reduced to the 1/68/168/176 only.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 2, 2020 0:44:42 GMT
To be honest lots of that does seem very plausible. What I would say is that I don't think the loss of the link to Shoreditch would be mitigated if the 47 were cut back given how much patronage has plummeted on the northern end of the 47. I suspect if TfL sever that link they won't replace it. I agree with you it seems likely that the 188 would be rerouted to take a more direct routing via the 381 between Tower Bridge Road and Waterloo, I had a similar idea myself though I suspect that the 381 would simply be cut back to Canada Water. I've also thought that the 172 seems vulnerable to a potential merger with the 168 if TfL want to look at reducing bus flow on Waterloo Road then they may try to extend the 168 further down Old Kent Road to do away with the 172. I think a merger of the 168/172 would be too long to keep reliable, with the distance between Hampstead Heath and Brockley Rise. Merging the 1 & 172 instead, as mentioned, would create new links to developments at New Bermondsey. In my proposals, the 188 would also be diverted away from the Waterloo Road corridor, reducing bus flow there - the Waterloo-Elephant section would be reduced to the 1/68/168/176 only. The problem I have with those proposals is I think withdrawing two routes is too much especially as your taking vital capacity away from the Old Kent Road in your merging of the 1 & 172 - one of the reasons the 415 was extended was to assist the 172 after all. I'd simply replace the 188 by extending the 199 over it to Elephant, extending the 45 via the 1 to Canada Water, cutting the 1 back to Elephant but extending it to North Greenwich and extend the 171 back to Holborn. That way, only one route is lost along the Waterloo section and whilst Jamaica Road loses it's link beyond Greenwich, it at least retains a link to Greenwich in the form of the 199.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 2, 2020 8:44:23 GMT
When the Central London consultation was unofficially realised by a blog on South East London it had the 172 as Aldwych to Catford and it did make me think the 171 was being cut altogether with the 172 extended to TL. I did wonder if the one route could cope between Brockley Rise and New Cross with the rest left to the 36, 136 and 436 and the many routes up the Walworth Road. The 172 would be a quicker way to get to Elephant from TL and would restore a link to Aldwych.
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Post by busman on Jul 2, 2020 9:39:07 GMT
I agree but in some places, it's simply not feasible to put a bus lane in. The bus lane on Jamaica Road that Eastlondoner62 mentioned is full of parked cars - the removal of parking spaces in bus lanes (bar loading/unloading bays for local businesses) should be the first thing removed unless an indented parking bay can be supplied instead. A significant stretch of bus lane along Creek Road towards Greenwich will be lost as part of the cycle superhighway scheme. Yes it will and that area gets congested at times, so bus reliability and journey times will suffer. Yesterday I also noticed that the entrance to the eastbound bus lane between Woolwich and Plumstead Bus Garage has been partially blocked by the new cycle line. As a result buses have to wait and merge into traffic before getting into the bus lane. TfL are sacrificing bus journey times and reliability for cycling infrastructure. Why can’t they co-exist? The consultation plans for road improvements on the A206 between Charlton and Woolwich look encouraging. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cycling/greenwich-to-woolwich/How TfL will join the section between Woolwich Ferry roundabout and the Woolwich-Plumstead cycle lane remains to be seen. There is some heavy redevelopment work along that bit and so it will require some careful forward planning between Greenwich Council and TfL. Potentially they could get rid of the middle barriers and ensure new developments do not encroach further towards the road. That would enable bus lanes and 2 way cycle lanes to be incorporated over that missing section.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 2, 2020 17:18:24 GMT
I seem to recall when there was a paper released on the planned increases in the South Bermondsey/Convoys Whalf area it proposed to create a Greenwich to CW route that would take over the CW to Waterloo section of the 381 but not via the Rotherhithe Loop. The 188 would have been cut to Elephant and the 381 would have been Canada Water to Peckham only. I wonder if TFl would ever give this some traction again.
Probably hard with Greenwich expected to not have any terminating routes and likely to be a feeling that 3 routes on Jamaica road is not needed.
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Post by busman on Jul 2, 2020 19:40:34 GMT
southlondonbus I think that document was in a SE London bus network development paper. The only only development that really didn’t have an adequate bus service is New Bermondsey. Work on that development hasn’t even started yet. Convoys Wharf is close enough to existing bus services as is Canada Water so in theory they can cope with frequency increases or even existing frequencies given the drop in patronage in the years since that paper. I think the catalyst for service changes will be New Bermondsey as its literally creating a new living and retail area out of industrial wasteland. The P12 alone isn’t gonna be adequate for New Bermo, but the project is massively delayed so no changes any time soon I think.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 2, 2020 20:00:15 GMT
When the Central London consultation was unofficially realised by a blog on South East London it had the 172 as Aldwych to Catford and it did make me think the 171 was being cut altogether with the 172 extended to TL. I did wonder if the one route could cope between Brockley Rise and New Cross with the rest left to the 36, 136 and 436 and the many routes up the Walworth Road. The 172 would be a quicker way to get to Elephant from TL and would restore a link to Aldwych. I seem to recall some suggestion of the 171 being withdrawn completely with the 172 taking over the Catford section. I don't know if one route would be adequate between Brockley Rise and New Cross? I suspect a lot of people have switched to LO but if two routes are necessary and to maintain the Peckham link.... halve the existing 36 frequency and add a new overlapping route between Paddington and Brockley Rise. Another problem might be the loss of the link between New Cross and the main part of Walworth Road, the 136 only serves a small section of it.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 2, 2020 21:28:23 GMT
southlondonbus I think that document was in a SE London bus network development paper. The only only development that really didn’t have an adequate bus service is New Bermondsey. Work on that development hasn’t even started yet. Convoys Wharf is close enough to existing bus services as is Canada Water so in theory they can cope with frequency increases or even existing frequencies given the drop in patronage in the years since that paper. I think the catalyst for service changes will be New Bermondsey as its literally creating a new living and retail area out of industrial wasteland. The P12 alone isn’t gonna be adequate for New Bermo, but the project is massively delayed so no changes any time soon I think. The 415 was meant to be extended into the development but like you say, won’t be happening anytime soon
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 2, 2020 21:33:55 GMT
I thibk the 321 was going to come up the Old Kent Road to the Surrey Canal Road station aswell.
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Post by rift on Jul 2, 2020 23:02:16 GMT
Based on the last few posts concerning the 188 and some other routes in the Canada Water area, I've put together some possible scenarios, partially based on some of the suggestions here.
Scenario 1: 1: Extended from Canada Water to North Greenwich via 188 and 129.
45: Extended to Canada Water
129: Extended to Lewisham as expected
188: Discontinued, replaced mostly by 1 extension, Blackwall Lane left served by 422.
199: Extended to Bromley North via 320
320: Withdrawn north of Bromley, replaced by 199 extension.
Scenario 2:
47 - Discontinued
171 - Discontinued
172 - Extended from Brockley Rise to Catford via former 171.
199: Extended to London Bridge via former 47, to link with 388.
In my opinion, all of these routes would be better off left alone, and I don't see this area under a serious threat of change, unless the Bakerloo line extension gets approved and is actually built.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 2, 2020 23:24:36 GMT
I think scenario 1 is more likely but with the 1 running via Blackwall Lane like the 188 does.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 3, 2020 0:48:01 GMT
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 3, 2020 6:51:48 GMT
Maybe it was just a smaller idea to do with creating bus links to Surrey Canal road. Thank you for finding the paper thou. Really appreciate it.
Alot of these ideas would be fantasy due to falling patronage now. The option B (Aldwych straight down the Old Kent Road then up to New Bermondsey station) looks remarkably how a diverted 172 could look.
Also the diversion of the 381 to come out of Canada Water then run round the Rotherhithe loop then Surrey Queys to normal line of route to Peckham could easily happen now with the 47 diverted to Waterloo and Jamaica Road left to the 47 and 188 and LB to Shoreditch. The need for the 381 to be replaced by the new Greenwich route along Jamaica Road has probably disappeared in TFLs eyes now with the Jubilee line and LO.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 3, 2020 9:54:05 GMT
I have an idea for Canada Water changes:
Route 1 - Withdrawn between Surrey Quays & Canada Water and extended to Catford Bus Garage via the 47. Route 47 - Discontinued Route 381 - Withdrawn between London Bridge & County Hall and rerouted to Shoreditch via old Route 47 to give new links into the area. Route 188 - Rerouted between Tower Bridge Road & Waterloo Station via Old Route 381 Route (N)47 - Becomes it's own route running between Shoreditch & Catford Bus Garage at night.
Thoughts?
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 3, 2020 10:04:20 GMT
Based on the last few posts concerning the 188 and some other routes in the Canada Water area, I've put together some possible scenarios, partially based on some of the suggestions here. Scenario 1: 1: Extended from Canada Water to North Greenwich via 188 and 129. 45: Extended to Canada Water 129: Extended to Lewisham as expected 188: Discontinued, replaced mostly by 1 extension, Blackwall Lane left served by 422. 199: Extended to Bromley North via 320 320: Withdrawn north of Bromley, replaced by 199 extension. Scenario 2: 47 - Discontinued 171 - Discontinued 172 - Extended from Brockley Rise to Catford via former 171. 199: Extended to London Bridge via former 47, to link with 388. In my opinion, all of these routes would be better off left alone, and I don't see this area under a serious threat of change, unless the Bakerloo line extension gets approved and is actually built. The Bakerloo Line Extension I cannot see happening and it is most certainly not going to feasible for the next 10-15 years.
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