|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Feb 8, 2024 9:36:53 GMT
107 to Potters Bar? Are we forgetting that PB is beyons the TfL boundary and they are most reluctant to do anything even a mete outside their territory. Which is why parts of Monken Hadley (inside the TfL area) are so poorly served now that the 84 has gone. That used to be a "red bus" route until TfL or their predecessors spat the dummy and gave it away because more than half of it was in Hertfordshire. The other routes running to Potters Bar are historic links that have been lucky to survive. Don't expect new ones under the TfL banner no matter how desirable they might be. This policy really needs to be revisited by TfL - it is incredibly insular and short-sighted. I could reel off a whole list of services/corridors that should be TfL but are not - the 3 from Sevenoaks to Orpington, the 420 from Redhill to Sutton, the A307 Portsmouth Road direct run from Kingston to Esher and branches beyond where necessary, the 84B from Barnet to Potters Bar, taking the 375 on to Ongar… |
|
|
|
Post by bk10mfe on Feb 8, 2024 10:03:00 GMT
107 to Potters Bar? Are we forgetting that PB is beyons the TfL boundary and they are most reluctant to do anything even a mete outside their territory. Which is why parts of Monken Hadley (inside the TfL area) are so poorly served now that the 84 has gone. That used to be a "red bus" route until TfL or their predecessors spat the dummy and gave it away because more than half of it was in Hertfordshire. The other routes running to Potters Bar are historic links that have been lucky to survive. Don't expect new ones under the TfL banner no matter how desirable they might be. This policy really needs to be revisited by TfL - it is incredibly insular and short-sighted. I could reel off a whole list of services/corridors that should be TfL but are not - the 3 from Sevenoaks to Orpington, the 420 from Redhill to Sutton, the A307 Portsmouth Road direct run from Kingston to Esher and branches beyond where necessary, the 84B from Barnet to Potters Bar, taking the 375 on to Ongar… TfL only wanted the 375 to go as far as Havering Atte Bower but there wasn’t any place for it to u turn. I won’t be surprised if they considering withdrawing the 375 as they considered withdrawing the 347 last year. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2024 12:27:27 GMT
This policy really needs to be revisited by TfL - it is incredibly insular and short-sighted. I could reel off a whole list of services/corridors that should be TfL but are not - the 3 from Sevenoaks to Orpington, the 420 from Redhill to Sutton, the A307 Portsmouth Road direct run from Kingston to Esher and branches beyond where necessary, the 84B from Barnet to Potters Bar, taking the 375 on to Ongar… TfL only wanted the 375 to go as far as Havering Atte Bower but there wasn’t any place for it to u turn. I won’t be surprised if they considering withdrawing the 375 as they considered withdrawing the 347 last year. I don’t see that happening at all - the 375 provides a part of Havering with a bus route that does get used and would otherwise be cut off from the network with that usage even extending into the Essex section involving Stapleford Abbots. Everytime I’ve seen it or used it, loadings are decent |
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Feb 8, 2024 12:46:14 GMT
The 375 turns at Passingford Bridge because that is the only realistic place available. It serves very few people that far out but if cut back to Havering-atte-Bower those folk, within the TfL boundary, would be left isolated. Beyond Passingford Bridge is another matter. We are into rural Essex. The old 175 ran only a handful of trips that far out. It seldom carried more than single-digit loads. Over the years successive reductions saw the 175A then 247B cut back further until the latter ran just a couple of trips on three days a w eek. Even then they were very lightly used in Essex.
The only place of any consequence between Passingford Bridge and Ongar is Stanford Rivers which is tiny. Seeing a passenger there would have been something to talk about in the canteen. I boarded a 247B at a rural stop near there once or twice having walked some distance from Kelvedon Hatch specifically to do so. On both occasions the driver nearly missed me and expressed surprise that I should be waiting.
A 247C was planned and got as far as having e-plates cast but never started. It would have run, I believe, on the days the 247B did not and taken a route from Passingford Bridge via Toot Hill to Epping covering more entirely rural lanes and replacing a long-withdrawn one-time LT service between Toot Hill and Epping. Objections were raised regarding the width of the roads involved despite operation being planned for a BL and some of them having previously been served by RFs.
Those few bus users in the Ongar area today probably wish to travel towards Epping or Harlow more than they do towards Romford. The link to Brentwood (the old LT 339) was often running empty 30 years ago but still hangs on today somehow. The occasional routes to Chelmsford are likewise never busy. I truly cannot see any reason to restore a bus between Passingford Bridge and Ongar but I accept the others mentioned as being worthy of "joined-up thinking" when it comes to cross-border service provision.
My rather rare 247C e-plate went missing during a house move years ago. It was on a 9-plate bus compulsory coach request stop flag along with numerous other mostly rare e-plates. Those included Southdown 72/72A/73 (a three-on-one "other operator" plate was distinctly rare) and a 616 Mondays - Fridays Express (not the later "Rush Hours Only" version), a 405 / 414 split plate and a 715A "Guildford" plate which would have come from south of Kingston. I don't supposed anyone here knows anything?
|
|
|
|
Post by bk10mfe on Feb 8, 2024 13:03:43 GMT
TfL only wanted the 375 to go as far as Havering Atte Bower but there wasn’t any place for it to u turn. I won’t be surprised if they considering withdrawing the 375 as they considered withdrawing the 347 last year. I don’t see that happening at all - the 375 provides a part of Havering with a bus route that does get used and would otherwise be cut off from the network with that usage even extending into the Essex section involving Stapleford Abbots. Everytime I’ve seen it or used it, loadings are decent Yes it wouldn’t be a good idea but tfl have isolated rural residents in the past which was evidenced by the R7 cut in Chelsfield. The R7 had reliability issues though & I don’t think the 375 does. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2024 14:38:44 GMT
I don’t see that happening at all - the 375 provides a part of Havering with a bus route that does get used and would otherwise be cut off from the network with that usage even extending into the Essex section involving Stapleford Abbots. Everytime I’ve seen it or used it, loadings are decent Yes it wouldn’t be a good idea but tfl have isolated rural residents in the past which was evidenced by the R7 cut in Chelsfield. The R7 had reliability issues though & I don’t think the 375 does. They slightly different - the R7 idea was and still is poor and should never have happened but removing a few stops it's still not akin to withdrawing an entire route from two communities as well as a small part of Chase Cross as well. It should also be remembered that the 375 was introduced because of a local Tory MP who asked Boris (mayor at the time) for a link to those communities. Furthermore, the 375 has already had a frequency cut as I'm sure it used to be every 75 minutes rather than the every 90 it is now - cutting the 375 would also save extremely little money not that really be the most pressing factor when planning a network and would highly likely increase car usage in the affected places |
|
|
|
Post by busoccultation on Feb 8, 2024 16:28:08 GMT
Furthermore, the 375 has already had a frequency cut as I'm sure it used to be every 75 minutes rather than the every 90 it is now - cutting the 375 would also save extremely little money not that really be the most pressing factor when planning a network and would highly likely increase car usage in the affected places Nope, the 375 was always running at every 90 minutes frequency right from it started in 2008 under Blue Triangle and the only real difference to the timetable now is the timings have been slightly changed to accommodate the school traffic. |
|
|
|
Post by gwiwer on Feb 8, 2024 17:11:44 GMT
If one was gong to do anything with the 375 then send it back to Epping along the former 250 route. But even that makes it more than 50% an Essex route, one which they might not wish to support and one which TfL might be keen to dispose of on the same grounds as they passed the 84 into Hertfordshire's hands.
|
|
|
|
Post by ADH45258 on Feb 8, 2024 18:17:41 GMT
Restructure ideas for North London, mostly within the borough of Barnet:
New Route 351
351 - New route, creating new links through the Mill Hill East area, including to redevelopments and some unserved roads. Using SDs about every 12-15 minutes.
Operating from Brent Cross Shopping Centre to Arnos Grove, via Hendon Way, Hendon Central Station, Queens Road, Brent Street, Parson Street, Great North Way, Page Street, Pursley Road, Devonshire Road, Mill Hill East Station, Inglis Way, Frith Lane, then the 221 to North Finchley, 125/263 to Whetstone and the 251 to Arnos Grove.
Routes 240, 251 & 383
251 - Revised to operate between Edgware and Barnet (The Spires), direct via Hale Lane to Mill Hill Broadway, then current route to Whetstone, and the 234 to Barnet. Introducing a direct link to Barnet from Mill Hill and Totteridge, and providing a more frequent Edgware-Barnet service.
240 - Diverted between Edgware and Mill Hill Broadway via Burnt Oak (replacing the 251).
383 - Extended from Barnet to Potters Bar. Could either go direct, or via Hadley Wood (merging with the 399). Stand space at The Spires made available for the 251.
Routes 125 & 326
125 - Rerouted at Hendon to Brent Cross Shopping Centre, increasing capacity on this section since the 143/326 can't take DDs.
326 - Rerouted at Hendon to Colindale Station via the 125.
Routes 67, 221, 382, H2 & H3
221 - Diverted between Mill Hill East Station and North Finchley, via the 382 to Finchley Central, then Ballards Lane. Introducing new links from Finchley Central to Edgware, Mill Hill Broadway and Wood Green. Withdrawn between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green, and frequency reduced to every 10 minutes.
67 - Extended from Wood Green to New Southgate, via the 221 to New Southgate Station, then terminating at the stand on Friern Barnet Road (turning around at Betstyle Circus). Increasing capacity along Bounds Green Road.
382 - Withdrawn between Mill Hill East and Finchley Central. Instead extended to Golders Green, providing a higher-capacity service along some of the wider roads through Hampstead Garden Suburb. Via Regents Park Road, East End Road, Ossulton Way, Kingsley Way, Meadway and Hoop Lane.
H2/H3 - Restructured to form a circular service to/from Golders Green via East Finchley, operating about every 30 minutes in both directions. Combining the current H3 with the northern half of the H2 loop - with the revised 382 covering the area around Meadway.
|
|
|
|
Post by bk10mfe on Feb 8, 2024 19:36:10 GMT
Restructure ideas for North London, mostly within the borough of Barnet: New Route 351
351 - New route, creating new links through the Mill Hill East area, including to redevelopments and some unserved roads. Using SDs about every 12-15 minutes. Operating from Brent Cross Shopping Centre to Arnos Grove, via Hendon Way, Hendon Central Station, Queens Road, Brent Street, Parson Street, Great North Way, Page Street, Pursley Road, Devonshire Road, Mill Hill East Station, Inglis Way, Frith Lane, then the 221 to North Finchley, 125/263 to Whetstone and the 251 to Arnos Grove. Routes 240, 251 & 383
251 - Revised to operate between Edgware and Barnet (The Spires), direct via Hale Lane to Mill Hill Broadway, then current route to Whetstone, and the 234 to Barnet. Introducing a direct link to Barnet from Mill Hill and Totteridge, and providing a more frequent Edgware-Barnet service. 240 - Diverted between Edgware and Mill Hill Broadway via Burnt Oak (replacing the 251). 383 - Extended from Barnet to Potters Bar. Could either go direct, or via Hadley Wood (merging with the 399). Stand space at The Spires made available for the 251. Routes 125 & 326
125 - Rerouted at Hendon to Brent Cross Shopping Centre, increasing capacity on this section since the 143/326 can't take DDs. 326 - Rerouted at Hendon to Colindale Station via the 125. Routes 67, 221, 382, H2 & H3221 - Diverted between Mill Hill East Station and North Finchley, via the 382 to Finchley Central, then Ballards Lane. Introducing new links from Finchley Central to Edgware, Mill Hill Broadway and Wood Green. Withdrawn between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green, and frequency reduced to every 10 minutes. 67 - Extended from Wood Green to New Southgate, via the 221 to New Southgate Station, then terminating at the stand on Friern Barnet Road (turning around at Betstyle Circus). Increasing capacity along Bounds Green Road. 382 - Withdrawn between Mill Hill East and Finchley Central. Instead extended to Golders Green, providing a higher-capacity service along some of the wider roads through Hampstead Garden Suburb. Via Regents Park Road, East End Road, Ossulton Way, Kingsley Way, Meadway and Hoop Lane. H2/H3 - Restructured to form a circular service to/from Golders Green via East Finchley, operating about every 30 minutes in both directions. Combining the current H3 with the northern half of the H2 loop - with the revised 382 covering the area around Meadway. All of these proposals look good, the only thing I will ask is that will the 125 be extended to Brent Cross West in place of the 326? If not you could do the same with the 143. |
|
|
|
Post by ADH45258 on Feb 8, 2024 19:47:29 GMT
Restructure ideas for North London, mostly within the borough of Barnet: Routes 125 & 326
125 - Rerouted at Hendon to Brent Cross Shopping Centre, increasing capacity on this section since the 143/326 can't take DDs. 326 - Rerouted at Hendon to Colindale Station via the 125. All of these proposals look good, the only thing I will ask is that will the 125 be extended to Brent Cross West in place of the 326? If not you could do the same with the 143. Yes either the 125 or 143 could go to Brent Cross West, probably the 143 as it has a lower frequency. I'm unsure though how much demand there would be for such a link, now that the SL10 links Finchley Central to Thameslink (at Hendon) - but could benefit the stops that the SL10 does not serve. |
|
|
|
Post by sdaniel on Feb 8, 2024 22:23:09 GMT
Restructure ideas for North London, mostly within the borough of Barnet: New Route 351
351 - New route, creating new links through the Mill Hill East area, including to redevelopments and some unserved roads. Using SDs about every 12-15 minutes. Operating from Brent Cross Shopping Centre to Arnos Grove, via Hendon Way, Hendon Central Station, Queens Road, Brent Street, Parson Street, Great North Way, Page Street, Pursley Road, Devonshire Road, Mill Hill East Station, Inglis Way, Frith Lane, then the 221 to North Finchley, 125/263 to Whetstone and the 251 to Arnos Grove. Routes 240, 251 & 383
251 - Revised to operate between Edgware and Barnet (The Spires), direct via Hale Lane to Mill Hill Broadway, then current route to Whetstone, and the 234 to Barnet. Introducing a direct link to Barnet from Mill Hill and Totteridge, and providing a more frequent Edgware-Barnet service. 240 - Diverted between Edgware and Mill Hill Broadway via Burnt Oak (replacing the 251). 383 - Extended from Barnet to Potters Bar. Could either go direct, or via Hadley Wood (merging with the 399). Stand space at The Spires made available for the 251. Routes 125 & 326
125 - Rerouted at Hendon to Brent Cross Shopping Centre, increasing capacity on this section since the 143/326 can't take DDs. 326 - Rerouted at Hendon to Colindale Station via the 125. Routes 67, 221, 382, H2 & H3221 - Diverted between Mill Hill East Station and North Finchley, via the 382 to Finchley Central, then Ballards Lane. Introducing new links from Finchley Central to Edgware, Mill Hill Broadway and Wood Green. Withdrawn between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green, and frequency reduced to every 10 minutes. 67 - Extended from Wood Green to New Southgate, via the 221 to New Southgate Station, then terminating at the stand on Friern Barnet Road (turning around at Betstyle Circus). Increasing capacity along Bounds Green Road. 382 - Withdrawn between Mill Hill East and Finchley Central. Instead extended to Golders Green, providing a higher-capacity service along some of the wider roads through Hampstead Garden Suburb. Via Regents Park Road, East End Road, Ossulton Way, Kingsley Way, Meadway and Hoop Lane. H2/H3 - Restructured to form a circular service to/from Golders Green via East Finchley, operating about every 30 minutes in both directions. Combining the current H3 with the northern half of the H2 loop - with the revised 382 covering the area around Meadway. All of these proposals look good, the only thing I will ask is that will the 125 be extended to Brent Cross West in place of the 326? If not you could do the same with the 143. Actually I would leave the 125 and 326 as they are for now. 102 and 232 already go from Brent Cross to Palmers Green and I don’t really see anybody going from Brent Cross to Winchmore Hill, even if they want to they can just change for the 329. Moreover, a lot of people have suggested to extend 67 to North Finchley to support 221 but SL1 is already there. I want 67 to be restored to terminate at Aldgate but extending to New Southgate is a decent idea. |
|
|
|
Post by bk10mfe on Feb 8, 2024 22:38:39 GMT
All of these proposals look good, the only thing I will ask is that will the 125 be extended to Brent Cross West in place of the 326? If not you could do the same with the 143. Actually I would leave the 125 and 326 as they are for now. 102 and 232 already go from Brent Cross to Palmers Green and I don’t really see anybody going from Brent Cross to Winchmore Hill, even if they want to they can just change for the 329. Moreover, a lot of people have suggested to extend 67 to North Finchley to support 221 but SL1 is already there. I want 67 to be restored to terminate at Aldgate but extending to New Southgate is a decent idea. The 125 being rerouted to Brent Cross is not because people are going to Winchmore Hill/Southgate from there but rather to provide extra capacity on the Hendon-Brent Cross corridor. |
|
|
|
Post by londonbuses on Feb 8, 2024 23:08:07 GMT
This policy really needs to be revisited by TfL - it is incredibly insular and short-sighted. I could reel off a whole list of services/corridors that should be TfL but are not - the 3 from Sevenoaks to Orpington, the 420 from Redhill to Sutton, the A307 Portsmouth Road direct run from Kingston to Esher and branches beyond where necessary, the 84B from Barnet to Potters Bar, taking the 375 on to Ongar… I completely agree with you, the Greater London shouldn't be a barrier to providing important bus connections. Realistically, all of these sections of non-TfL routes should be incorporated into the TfL bus network:
3 Orpington to Sevenoaks 3 Uxbridge to Slough 84B Barnet to Potters Bar 409 Selsdon to Caterham on the Hill 420 Sutton to Redhill 442 Heathrow T5 to Staines 458 Kingston to Staines 477 Orpington to Bluewater 515 Kingston to Esher (via Thames Ditton and Lower Green) 555 Heathrow Central/Hatton Cross to Walton-on-Thames E16 Worcester Park to Epsom
Some route extensions are also needed where routes unnecessarily terminate due to the Greater London border, such as extending the 116 from Ashford Hospital to Staines, the 293 from Epsom Hospital to Leatherhead, the 466 from Caterham-on-the-Hill to Caterham station, and extending all journeys on the 166 to Epsom Hospital.
|
|
|
|
Post by londonbuses184 on Feb 8, 2024 23:24:49 GMT
Actually I would leave the 125 and 326 as they are for now. 102 and 232 already go from Brent Cross to Palmers Green and I don’t really see anybody going from Brent Cross to Winchmore Hill, even if they want to they can just change for the 329. Moreover, a lot of people have suggested to extend 67 to North Finchley to support 221 but SL1 is already there. I want 67 to be restored to terminate at Aldgate but extending to New Southgate is a decent idea. The 125 being rerouted to Brent Cross is not because people are going to Winchmore Hill/Southgate from there but rather to provide extra capacity on the Hendon-Brent Cross corridor. No point. I see a lot of people in my area Barnet use the 326 to Brent Cross. The 143 and 326 paralleling to Brent Cross is the whole point of maintaining capacity. The Colindale section has become very busy on the 125 so why dump that for a single deck 326? |
|
