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Post by vjaska on Feb 26, 2024 12:34:24 GMT
The 431 would need a lot of work in it to keep it as reliable as possible as the South Circular is unforgiving - the P4 only uses a small chunk yet struggles to run reliably at times. I also would curtail it to Catford in any event as I don't think the Bellingham section is necessary especially with the 171 already doing this and this route will need all the extra time there is but even then, Clapham Junction may still be a step too far. Clapham Park or Brixton may be the best solutions but if the latter, something would have to be removed and given I live in Brixton, I can assure you that is a no no to remove any existing route along Brixton Hill, Tulse Hill or through Herne Hill. You could divert the 417 to Clapham Junction via the proposed route after Clapham Park, then have the 431 takeover the current 417 to Clapham Common. To offset the loss of capacity on Kings Ave I would fully deck the 355. This breaks links across the 417 & decking the 355 doesn’t offset that at all.
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Post by bk10mfe on Feb 26, 2024 14:23:30 GMT
You could divert the 417 to Clapham Junction via the proposed route after Clapham Park, then have the 431 takeover the current 417 to Clapham Common. To offset the loss of capacity on Kings Ave I would fully deck the 355. This breaks links across the 417 & decking the 355 doesn’t offset that at all. The 50, 137 & 249 have a lot of the same links as the 417. Diverting the 417 enables a direct link between Clapham Junction & Crystal Palace while the 431 introduces new links from Clapham Common to Tulse Hill, Dulwich, Forest Hill & Catford. The 355 needs to be decked regardless as it loads well towards Brixton & out of Brixton.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 26, 2024 15:39:31 GMT
This breaks links across the 417 & decking the 355 doesn’t offset that at all. The 50, 137 & 249 have a lot of the same links as the 417. Diverting the 417 enables a direct link between Clapham Junction & Crystal Palace while the 431 introduces new links from Clapham Common to Tulse Hill, Dulwich, Forest Hill & Catford. The 355 needs to be decked regardless as it loads well towards Brixton & out of Brixton. I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts.
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Post by bk10mfe on Feb 26, 2024 16:13:16 GMT
The 50, 137 & 249 have a lot of the same links as the 417. Diverting the 417 enables a direct link between Clapham Junction & Crystal Palace while the 431 introduces new links from Clapham Common to Tulse Hill, Dulwich, Forest Hill & Catford. The 355 needs to be decked regardless as it loads well towards Brixton & out of Brixton. I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts. Could you perhaps route the 431 to Clapham Common via Abbeville Road, providing the Abbeville Village area with a bus service & also not duplicating existing routes like the 50 or 417. Regarding the 417 specifically I remember there was a proposal to extend it to Waterloo as part of the Battersea/Nine Elms Project. There was also meant to be a new route between Sloane Square & Waterloo which never happened (though the 211 reroute to Battersea is somewhat similar to the new route). The 452 extension to Vauxhall was also part of these proposals & that went ahead.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 26, 2024 17:04:20 GMT
I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts. Could you perhaps route the 431 to Clapham Common via Abbeville Road, providing the Abbeville Village area with a bus service & also not duplicating existing routes like the 50 or 417. Regarding the 417 specifically I remember there was a proposal to extend it to Waterloo as part of the Battersea/Nine Elms Project. There was also meant to be a new route between Sloane Square & Waterloo which never happened (though the 211 reroute to Battersea is somewhat similar to the new route). The 452 extension to Vauxhall was also part of these proposals & that went ahead. You could do that with the 431 but I'm not sure how useful it would be in all honesty. There was indeed that proposal but IMO, it wasn't thought through at all. The 452 extension to Vauxhall was the only useful bit as there was an overcrowding issue with the 77 & 87 during the peaks which the 452 has resolved
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 26, 2024 17:10:31 GMT
Could you perhaps route the 431 to Clapham Common via Abbeville Road, providing the Abbeville Village area with a bus service & also not duplicating existing routes like the 50 or 417. Regarding the 417 specifically I remember there was a proposal to extend it to Waterloo as part of the Battersea/Nine Elms Project. There was also meant to be a new route between Sloane Square & Waterloo which never happened (though the 211 reroute to Battersea is somewhat similar to the new route). The 452 extension to Vauxhall was also part of these proposals & that went ahead. You could do that with the 431 but I'm not sure how useful it would be in all honesty. There was indeed that proposal but IMO, it wasn't thought through at all. The 452 extension to Vauxhall was the only useful bit as there was an overcrowding issue with the 77 & 87 during the peaks which the 452 has resolved There was a proposal to extend the 417 to CJ but I think that was more to relieve the 35 and 37 which I guess were struggling at the time.
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Post by ronnie on Feb 26, 2024 17:13:44 GMT
The 50, 137 & 249 have a lot of the same links as the 417. Diverting the 417 enables a direct link between Clapham Junction & Crystal Palace while the 431 introduces new links from Clapham Common to Tulse Hill, Dulwich, Forest Hill & Catford. The 355 needs to be decked regardless as it loads well towards Brixton & out of Brixton. I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts. Indeed and while there are some glaring missing links (which I would love to plug!) one needs to be wary of congestion levels. Some links are only doable on express type routes; think a catford to Clapham junction express service might be great
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Post by cl54 on Feb 26, 2024 18:01:09 GMT
The Woolwich Ferry is now running a 2 boat service. The 161 was supposed to be diverted to run via John Wilson Street after the stop outside Tesco. Not yet implemented. The 161 planned re-route is no longer happening it was binned and the bus stop for Woolwich Arsenal Station was moved so now it goes via Vincent Road & Burrage Road permanently and also serves Woolwich Station on Plumstead Road. TfL and Greenwich Council to remodel the junction of Plumstead Road and Woolwich New Road. People use the shortest route to/from the Elizabeth line not what the planners thought. Hopefully they will reinstate the left turn.
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Post by londonbuses on Feb 26, 2024 18:09:14 GMT
I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts. Could you perhaps route the 431 to Clapham Common via Abbeville Road, providing the Abbeville Village area with a bus service & also not duplicating existing routes like the 50 or 417. Regarding the 417 specifically I remember there was a proposal to extend it to Waterloo as part of the Battersea/Nine Elms Project. There was also meant to be a new route between Sloane Square & Waterloo which never happened (though the 211 reroute to Battersea is somewhat similar to the new route). The 452 extension to Vauxhall was also part of these proposals & that went ahead. I'm not too sure what the point is of playing around with existing routes is - I'd just simply introduce a new route between Clapham Junction and Catford, following the South Circular the entire way. It would have to be single decker since there's no viable alternative to avoid the low bridge (running via Lancaster Avenue is not feasible) and I'd suggest a frequency of 5bph to begin with.
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 26, 2024 18:39:33 GMT
Could you perhaps route the 431 to Clapham Common via Abbeville Road, providing the Abbeville Village area with a bus service & also not duplicating existing routes like the 50 or 417. Regarding the 417 specifically I remember there was a proposal to extend it to Waterloo as part of the Battersea/Nine Elms Project. There was also meant to be a new route between Sloane Square & Waterloo which never happened (though the 211 reroute to Battersea is somewhat similar to the new route). The 452 extension to Vauxhall was also part of these proposals & that went ahead. I'm not too sure what the point is of playing around with existing routes is - I'd just simply introduce a new route between Clapham Junction and Catford, following the South Circular the entire way. It would have to be single decker since there's no viable alternative to avoid the low bridge (running via Lancaster Avenue is not feasible) and I'd suggest a frequency of 5bph to begin with. The South Circular from Dulwich Common onwards nothing exciting and major, just pure slow bumper to bumper traffic. Do not see the point of running a route via the entire A205 the only busy part of that would be Catford & Forest Hill. The P4 already sits in traffic on Dulwich Common daily. vjaska came up with an idea in the past the 445 Clapham Junction to Lewisham 436 then 345 which would be a lot more popular than a route on the South Circular.
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Post by ADH45258 on Feb 26, 2024 19:37:29 GMT
I'm not too sure what the point is of playing around with existing routes is - I'd just simply introduce a new route between Clapham Junction and Catford, following the South Circular the entire way. It would have to be single decker since there's no viable alternative to avoid the low bridge (running via Lancaster Avenue is not feasible) and I'd suggest a frequency of 5bph to begin with. The South Circular from Dulwich Common onwards nothing exciting and major, just pure slow bumper to bumper traffic. Do not see the point of running a route via the entire A205 the only busy part of that would be Catford & Forest Hill. The P4 already sits in traffic on Dulwich Common daily. vjaska came up with an idea in the past the 445 Clapham Junction to Lewisham 436 then 345 which would be a lot more popular than a route on the South Circular. I think existing routes like the 185/P13 may be adequate on that section. But a new link between Clapham Junction, Clapham South, Streatham Hill and Tulse Hill could be useful.
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Post by Unorm on Feb 26, 2024 20:00:59 GMT
I'm not too sure what the point is of playing around with existing routes is - I'd just simply introduce a new route between Clapham Junction and Catford, following the South Circular the entire way. It would have to be single decker since there's no viable alternative to avoid the low bridge (running via Lancaster Avenue is not feasible) and I'd suggest a frequency of 5bph to begin with. The South Circular from Dulwich Common onwards nothing exciting and major, just pure slow bumper to bumper traffic. Do not see the point of running a route via the entire A205 the only busy part of that would be Catford & Forest Hill. The P4 already sits in traffic on Dulwich Common daily. vjaska came up with an idea in the past the 445 Clapham Junction to Lewisham 436 then 345 which would be a lot more popular than a route on the South Circular. There is merit to a route along majority of the A205, plugging up a lot of links that aren't linked. In addition, creating another South West-South East route that isn't the very-subscribed 37 or low-frequency single deck P13. Optimistically some car journeys would be off the road thus freeing some traffic on the road. Would only know for sure if it's trialled/done. Few examples: Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill (sure, one could Hopper to Brixton and change buses. One change isn't a deal breaker but direct would be nice) Clapham Junction to Forest Hill (requires more changes, or the simplest change [35>176/185] being perceived as slow Tulse Hill to Catford (easy P13>185, though again P13 is low frequency and I suspect both 185/P13 have little in spare peak capacity) Direct links like these are more valuable as a passenger wouldn't have knowledge what's ideal places to Hopper. To then consult Google/Citymapper/etc, one could look at the journey times and think twice. Since the last time I've suggested/supported such ideas, there wasn't LTNs in the areas and now 20mph speed limits, though I still somewhat stand by a bus route along more of the A205 even knowing there's traffic issues. Not ideal, but P4 being stuck but used suggests it's still worth it to passengers to get to places. P4 being the only direct link from Brixton to Lewisham. The lack of bus priority along the A205 only makes this more challenging. The 112's extension from Brent Cross to North Finchley via more of the A406 has opened up new direct links, and became very subscribed as a result with a Sunday/evening frequency increase from every 15/20 respectively to every 12. I recall the change received as a potential reliability issue before it happened, but has since proven to be a genius on TfL's part. Of course the A406 is wider and different to the A205, but both roads are Circular Roads that form a loop/ring-road function to get around the city. Or I guess the easier part, make P13 high-frequency (maybe even longer buses using a previous temporary diversion via Lyndhurst Way instead of those very tight backroads in Peckham Rye), extend 417 from Clapham Common to Clapham Junction, with a new route/rerouted something from Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill to maybe somewhere else
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 26, 2024 20:14:17 GMT
The South Circular from Dulwich Common onwards nothing exciting and major, just pure slow bumper to bumper traffic. Do not see the point of running a route via the entire A205 the only busy part of that would be Catford & Forest Hill. The P4 already sits in traffic on Dulwich Common daily. vjaska came up with an idea in the past the 445 Clapham Junction to Lewisham 436 then 345 which would be a lot more popular than a route on the South Circular. There is merit to a route along majority of the A205, plugging up a lot of links that aren't linked. In addition, creating another South West-South East route that isn't the very-subscribed 37 or low-frequency single deck P13. Optimistically some car journeys would be off the road thus freeing some traffic on the road. Would only know for sure if it's trialled/done. Few examples: Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill (sure, one could Hopper to Brixton and change buses. One change isn't a deal breaker but direct would be nice) Clapham Junction to Forest Hill (requires more changes, or the simplest change [35>176/185] being perceived as slow Tulse Hill to Catford (easy P13>185, though again P13 is low frequency and I suspect both 185/P13 have little in spare peak capacity) Direct links like these are more valuable as a passenger wouldn't have knowledge what's ideal places to Hopper. To then consult Google/Citymapper/etc, one could look at the journey times and think twice. Since the last time I've suggested/supported such ideas, there wasn't LTNs in the areas and now 20mph speed limits, though I still somewhat stand by a bus route along more of the A205 even knowing there's traffic issues. Not ideal, but P4 being stuck but used suggests it's still worth it to passengers to get to places. P4 being the only direct link from Brixton to Lewisham. The lack of bus priority along the A205 only makes this more challenging. The 112's extension from Brent Cross to North Finchley via more of the A406 has opened up new direct links, and became very subscribed as a result with a Sunday/evening frequency increase from every 15/20 respectively to every 12. I recall the change received as a potential reliability issue before it happened, but has since proven to be a genius on TfL's part. Of course the A406 is wider and different to the A205, but both roads are Circular Roads that form a loop/ring-road function to get around the city. Or I guess the easier part, make P13 high-frequency (maybe even longer buses using a previous temporary diversion via Lyndhurst Way instead of those very tight backroads in Peckham Rye), extend 417 from Clapham Common to Clapham Junction, with a new route/rerouted something from Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill to maybe somewhere else A limited stop service I think would be more successful.
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Post by bk10mfe on Feb 26, 2024 22:29:17 GMT
The South Circular from Dulwich Common onwards nothing exciting and major, just pure slow bumper to bumper traffic. Do not see the point of running a route via the entire A205 the only busy part of that would be Catford & Forest Hill. The P4 already sits in traffic on Dulwich Common daily. vjaska came up with an idea in the past the 445 Clapham Junction to Lewisham 436 then 345 which would be a lot more popular than a route on the South Circular. There is merit to a route along majority of the A205, plugging up a lot of links that aren't linked. In addition, creating another South West-South East route that isn't the very-subscribed 37 or low-frequency single deck P13. Optimistically some car journeys would be off the road thus freeing some traffic on the road. Would only know for sure if it's trialled/done. Few examples: Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill (sure, one could Hopper to Brixton and change buses. One change isn't a deal breaker but direct would be nice) Clapham Junction to Forest Hill (requires more changes, or the simplest change [35>176/185] being perceived as slow Tulse Hill to Catford (easy P13>185, though again P13 is low frequency and I suspect both 185/P13 have little in spare peak capacity) Direct links like these are more valuable as a passenger wouldn't have knowledge what's ideal places to Hopper. To then consult Google/Citymapper/etc, one could look at the journey times and think twice. Since the last time I've suggested/supported such ideas, there wasn't LTNs in the areas and now 20mph speed limits, though I still somewhat stand by a bus route along more of the A205 even knowing there's traffic issues. Not ideal, but P4 being stuck but used suggests it's still worth it to passengers to get to places. P4 being the only direct link from Brixton to Lewisham. The lack of bus priority along the A205 only makes this more challenging. The 112's extension from Brent Cross to North Finchley via more of the A406 has opened up new direct links, and became very subscribed as a result with a Sunday/evening frequency increase from every 15/20 respectively to every 12. I recall the change received as a potential reliability issue before it happened, but has since proven to be a genius on TfL's part. Of course the A406 is wider and different to the A205, but both roads are Circular Roads that form a loop/ring-road function to get around the city. Or I guess the easier part, make P13 high-frequency (maybe even longer buses using a previous temporary diversion via Lyndhurst Way instead of those very tight backroads in Peckham Rye), extend 417 from Clapham Common to Clapham Junction, with a new route/rerouted something from Clapham Junction to Tulse Hill to maybe somewhere else Perhaps you could implement my proposed 431 to run between Streatham & Catford, using the longer buses as you have suggested then cut back the P13 to Tulse Hill. You could also extend the 417 to Clapham Junction as previously suggested, the 37’s do get very packed out on that corridor.
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Post by ronnie on Feb 27, 2024 10:27:18 GMT
The 50, 137 & 249 have a lot of the same links as the 417. Diverting the 417 enables a direct link between Clapham Junction & Crystal Palace while the 431 introduces new links from Clapham Common to Tulse Hill, Dulwich, Forest Hill & Catford. The 355 needs to be decked regardless as it loads well towards Brixton & out of Brixton. I live in the local area - the 417 is very much needed in it's current form regardless. The 417 provides the most direct link between Crystal Palace & Clapham Common and has end to end usage as a result. Any 431 introduction should not be at the cost of my area's existing links which would remain far important to locals. Crystal Palace is already linked to Clapham Junction via train and in any instance, extending the 417 to Clapham Junction would be best achieved via the 35 & 37 and not via the A205 through Clapham South. I'm very aware about the 355 - I've wrote to TfL about it's capacity in the past and have used it from Brixton during the busy periods South London relies heavily on it's bus network due to the unreliability of National Rail and the lack of tube coverage in comparison to other parts. I think there are quite a few gaps in the network in south London which make things tricky As an example - i now need to go to Peckham intermittently every week with my 1 year old. It’s less than 5 miles, in a car I can do in 20-30 min. In contrast in a bus it will take almost an hour. I have the following choices: - 286 followed by 177 - 286/335 followed by 53 and then 36/136/436/171 - 89/178 followed by 136/436 - 132/335 to North Greenwich, then jubilee to Canada Water, then overground to queens road Peckham, then 36/136/436/171. With a park one is slower owing to the wait for lifts etc Similarly no link between Blackheath and Charlton retail parks (although it’s an easier change). Or North Greenwich and Bromley for example Now I know you can’t link every place but there are some crucially missing ones which make one very dependent on using a car.
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