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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 15:19:06 GMT
I think if this 4tph service ever came to fruition, it could make use of the Class 465/466 units that are currently in storage. Can the platform arrangement at Gravesend support this though? The existing Charing Cross - Gravesend via Sidcup service uses platform 0 so unless that gets cut back, I'm not sure if this can work. Regarding the Charing Cross - Maidstone West via Woolwich service, I suppose it depends on whether Maidstone users prefer regular SE high speed trains to St Pancras or regular trains to Charing Cross as there may be time and price differences between the two. I think it was intended for Maidstone West to be served by both High Speed and Charing Cross via Woolwich trains, Maidstone commuters want the town to have a wider range of services with better connections to other destinations, including better connections to TfL services in South east London. The Maidstone West option came about primarily because of lack of space at Gravesend, with both Sidcup and Bexleyheath line trains terminating there. I’m not sure if the Maidstone West service would be semi fast (or call at the old Gillingham semi fasts stops at Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich A, Abbey W, Dartford, Greenhithe then Gravesend) or would call at all stations along the Woolwich line (fast from London Bridge to Lewisham of course) and run semi fast after Dartford, Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet just about justify a 4tph let alone 6tph. Either way it’ll be good to have Maidstone services on the Woolwich line again I think Maidstone West would be better served by Crossrail eventually ........ The high speed services are peak hour only at the moment and there was some doubt about their viability.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 15:31:54 GMT
I think it was intended for Maidstone West to be served by both High Speed and Charing Cross via Woolwich trains, Maidstone commuters want the town to have a wider range of services with better connections to other destinations, including better connections to TfL services in South east London. The Maidstone West option came about primarily because of lack of space at Gravesend, with both Sidcup and Bexleyheath line trains terminating there. I’m not sure if the Maidstone West service would be semi fast (or call at the old Gillingham semi fasts stops at Lewisham, Blackheath, Charlton, Woolwich A, Abbey W, Dartford, Greenhithe then Gravesend) or would call at all stations along the Woolwich line (fast from London Bridge to Lewisham of course) and run semi fast after Dartford, Stone, Swanscombe and Northfleet just about justify a 4tph let alone 6tph. Either way it’ll be good to have Maidstone services on the Woolwich line again I think Maidstone West would be better served by Crossrail eventually ........ The high speed services are peak hour only at the moment and there was some doubt about their viability. CrossRail won’t be extended this side of 2050 at the earliest, so for now Charing Cross feeder to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and and enhanced High Speed train is the best alternative for now, and do we really want TfL to run all the services beyond London? The Reading situation is different since GWR is the primary operator on that stretch of the route and is 2tph.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 18, 2021 15:34:19 GMT
I think Maidstone West would be better served by Crossrail eventually ........ The high speed services are peak hour only at the moment and there was some doubt about their viability. CrossRail won’t be extended this side of 2050 at the earliest, so for now Charing Cross feeder to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and and enhanced High Speed train is the best alternative for now, and do we really want TfL to run all the services beyond London? The Reading situation is different since GWR is the primary operator on that stretch of the route and is 2tph. The Overground has been a roaring success and already runs into Hertfordshire beyond Hatch End - compared to Southeastern, I can't see how TfL can do any worse?
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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 15:35:37 GMT
I think Maidstone West would be better served by Crossrail eventually ........ The high speed services are peak hour only at the moment and there was some doubt about their viability. CrossRail won’t be extended this side of 2050 at the earliest, so for now Charing Cross feeder to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and and enhanced High Speed train is the best alternative for now, and do we really want TfL to run all the services beyond London? The Reading situation is different since GWR is the primary operator on that stretch of the route and is 2tph. A Charing Cross to Maidstone West service is going to be laboriously slow.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 15:42:43 GMT
CrossRail won’t be extended this side of 2050 at the earliest, so for now Charing Cross feeder to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and and enhanced High Speed train is the best alternative for now, and do we really want TfL to run all the services beyond London? The Reading situation is different since GWR is the primary operator on that stretch of the route and is 2tph. The Overground has been a roaring success and already runs into Hertfordshire beyond Hatch End - compared to Southeastern, I can't see how TfL can do any worse? Hatch End is a small suburb just over the border of London and Hertfordshire, Maidstone is a large town, a county town, in the middle of Kent, slapping TfL on everything isn’t the answer to everything, I quote like the idea that towns outside of London have their own character and don’t become some suburb of London.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 15:47:04 GMT
CrossRail won’t be extended this side of 2050 at the earliest, so for now Charing Cross feeder to Crossrail at Abbey Wood and and enhanced High Speed train is the best alternative for now, and do we really want TfL to run all the services beyond London? The Reading situation is different since GWR is the primary operator on that stretch of the route and is 2tph. A Charing Cross to Maidstone West service is going to be laboriously slow. It’s not about getting people from Maidstone to Charing Cross, they can get a faster journey to London via Maidstone East, this is more of a feeder route to CrossRail at Abbey Wood, and the only service that’s able to be extended to Maidstone from the Woolwich line is the current CX to Dartford service, it can’t be either of the Cannon Streets since they loop back to London either via Sidcup or Bexleyheath and it would be beyond ridiculous to have the Thameslink run down there. The Thameslink Rainham is laboriously slow, so slow it’s almost pointless but I don’t see many want to do away with that service anytime soon (or else face the wrath of the angry Greenwich line commuters who don’t seem to realise that those in Medway have now got a slower service to London Bridge than previously)
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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 16:09:12 GMT
A Charing Cross to Maidstone West service is going to be laboriously slow. It’s not about getting people from Maidstone to Charing Cross, they can get a faster journey to London via Maidstone East, this is more of a feeder route to CrossRail at Abbey Wood, and the only service that’s able to be extended to Maidstone from the Woolwich line is the current CX to Dartford service, it can’t be either of the Cannon Streets since they loop back to London either via Sidcup or Bexleyheath and it would be beyond ridiculous to have the Thameslink run down there. The Thameslink Rainham is laboriously slow, so slow it’s almost pointless but I don’t see many want to do away with that service anytime soon (or else face the wrath of the angry Greenwich line commuters who don’t seem to realise that those in Medway have now got a slower service to London Bridge than previously) The journey time from Maidstone East isn't great, one hour plus, and I think the long term objective for Crossrail should be 2tph to Maidstone West and 2thp to Rainham with Thameslink and Southeastern services terminating at Dartford or Gravesend.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 16:26:05 GMT
It’s not about getting people from Maidstone to Charing Cross, they can get a faster journey to London via Maidstone East, this is more of a feeder route to CrossRail at Abbey Wood, and the only service that’s able to be extended to Maidstone from the Woolwich line is the current CX to Dartford service, it can’t be either of the Cannon Streets since they loop back to London either via Sidcup or Bexleyheath and it would be beyond ridiculous to have the Thameslink run down there. The Thameslink Rainham is laboriously slow, so slow it’s almost pointless but I don’t see many want to do away with that service anytime soon (or else face the wrath of the angry Greenwich line commuters who don’t seem to realise that those in Medway have now got a slower service to London Bridge than previously) The journey time from Maidstone East isn't great, one hour plus, and I think the long term objective for Crossrail should be 2tph to Maidstone West and 2thp to Rainham with Thameslink and Southeastern services terminating at Dartford or Gravesend. TfL runs metro services not mainline services, the Metropolitan line and the Reading branch of CrossRail are the possible exceptions. As I’ve said, CrossRail won’t probably be extended beyond Abbey Wood this side of 2050 the way things are looking with the economy due to Covid lockdowns,, and even so Maidstone is much further out of London than Reading is even is it not? Why do you want CrossRail to go to Maidstone anyway? What would be the logistics of such a service? Would it call at all intermediate stations between Strood and Maidstone? Or only at Snodland? Thameslink Rainham service is on borrowed time, once CrossRail gets started I can see Thameslink being redundant,, if people from Medway or Gravesend want, North London, St. Albans or Luton, all they have to do is get the Highspeed to St. Pancras then either change for a fast Thameslink service or a East Midlands train, Greenhithe, Dartford and stations up to Abbey Wood can simply switch to CrossRail, likewise for Plumstead they can get to Woolwich, it’ll really only be the Greenwich line that will lose out in this scenario, but they’ll get used to doing what they did for thirty years prior to 2018 if the want Thameslink, change at London Bridge, plus Windmill Junction will be upgraded soon and when that happens, Thameslink will inevitably switch to service Sussex like they wanted to do originally.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 16:45:10 GMT
The journey time from Maidstone East isn't great, one hour plus, and I think the long term objective for Crossrail should be 2tph to Maidstone West and 2thp to Rainham with Thameslink and Southeastern services terminating at Dartford or Gravesend. TfL runs metro services not mainline services, the Metropolitan line and the Reading branch of CrossRail are the possible exceptions. As I’ve said, CrossRail won’t probably be extended beyond Abbey Wood this side of 2050 the way things are looking with the economy due to Covid lockdowns,, and even so Maidstone is much further out of London than Reading is even is it not? Why do you want CrossRail to go to Maidstone anyway? What would be the logistics of such a service? Would it call at all intermediate stations between Strood and Maidstone? Or only at Snodland? Thameslink Rainham service is on borrowed time, once CrossRail gets started I can see Thameslink being redundant,, if people from Medway or Gravesend want, North London, St. Albans or Luton, all they have to do is get the Highspeed to St. Pancras then either change for a fast Thameslink service or a East Midlands train, Greenhithe, Dartford and stations up to Abbey Wood can simply switch to CrossRail, likewise for Plumstead they can get to Woolwich, it’ll really only be the Greenwich line that will lose out in this scenario, but they’ll get used to doing what they did for thirty years prior to 2018 if the want Thameslink, change at London Bridge, plus Windmill Junction will be upgraded soon and when that happens, Thameslink will inevitably switch to service Sussex like they wanted to do originally. There's no reason why Crossrail couldn't be extended sooner largely using existing infrastructure, why do you want a Charing Cross to Maidstone West service? They would both do the same job east of Abbey Wood but Crossrail would give a direct link to Canary Wharf and the West End. The existing Thameslink service isn't intended for end to end journeys although can be used for such by those not in a hurry for a cheaper fare, most people would use the high speed service to St Pancras although it does give a useful tube type service along the Woolwich line just as the Sevenoaks service does on the Catford loop line.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 18, 2021 17:06:32 GMT
The Overground has been a roaring success and already runs into Hertfordshire beyond Hatch End - compared to Southeastern, I can't see how TfL can do any worse? Hatch End is a small suburb just over the border of London and Hertfordshire, Maidstone is a large town, a county town, in the middle of Kent, slapping TfL on everything isn’t the answer to everything, I quote like the idea that towns outside of London have their own character and don’t become some suburb of London. You need to my post again - Hatch End isn't over the border nor did I say it was, I specifically said it runs into Hertfordshire beyond Hatch End implying Hatch End is the final stop within a London borough. Maidstone wouldn't lose any character or become a suburb of London if TfL run services to & from it.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 17:16:32 GMT
TfL runs metro services not mainline services, the Metropolitan line and the Reading branch of CrossRail are the possible exceptions. As I’ve said, CrossRail won’t probably be extended beyond Abbey Wood this side of 2050 the way things are looking with the economy due to Covid lockdowns,, and even so Maidstone is much further out of London than Reading is even is it not? Why do you want CrossRail to go to Maidstone anyway? What would be the logistics of such a service? Would it call at all intermediate stations between Strood and Maidstone? Or only at Snodland? Thameslink Rainham service is on borrowed time, once CrossRail gets started I can see Thameslink being redundant,, if people from Medway or Gravesend want, North London, St. Albans or Luton, all they have to do is get the Highspeed to St. Pancras then either change for a fast Thameslink service or a East Midlands train, Greenhithe, Dartford and stations up to Abbey Wood can simply switch to CrossRail, likewise for Plumstead they can get to Woolwich, it’ll really only be the Greenwich line that will lose out in this scenario, but they’ll get used to doing what they did for thirty years prior to 2018 if the want Thameslink, change at London Bridge, plus Windmill Junction will be upgraded soon and when that happens, Thameslink will inevitably switch to service Sussex like they wanted to do originally. There's no reason why Crossrail couldn't be extended sooner largely using existing infrastructure, why do you want a Charing Cross to Maidstone West service? They would both do the same job east of Abbey Wood but Crossrail would give a direct link to Canary Wharf and the West End. The existing Thameslink service isn't intended for end to end journeys although can be used for such by those not in a hurry for a cheaper fare, most people would use the high speed service to St Pancras although it does give a useful tube type service along the Woolwich line just as the Sevenoaks service does on the Catford loop line. Not much sooner, maybe 2040-45 at the earliest that’s still twenty years from now, Covid has screwed the economy, if the much more needed Bakerloo extension to Lewisham and the DLR extension to Thamesmead have been scrapped, I don’t have much hope for a CrossRail extension to Gravesend, much less Maidstone which again is much further out than Reading is, soon there’ll be the Metropolitan line extension to Oxford…. As for the Thameslink Rainham it would be better if it ran from Dartford that’s the only way it could serve a purpose but to have a service running all stops to Medway is ridiculous. As for the CX to Maidstone service, because it’ll spread the CrossRail net further afield without extending it all the way to Maidstone.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 17:20:58 GMT
Hatch End is a small suburb just over the border of London and Hertfordshire, Maidstone is a large town, a county town, in the middle of Kent, slapping TfL on everything isn’t the answer to everything, I quote like the idea that towns outside of London have their own character and don’t become some suburb of London. You need to my post again - Hatch End isn't over the border nor did I say it was, I specifically said it runs into Hertfordshire beyond Hatch End implying Hatch End is the final stop within a London borough. Maidstone wouldn't lose any character or become a suburb of London if TfL run services to & from it. Watford is just outside London, Maidstone is miles into the depths of Kent, TfL should just stick to the London area only, with a few exceptions to Watford, Epsom and Dartford. If CrossRail was on the same scale as Thameslink and not ran by TfL then a Maidstone to Oxford service would be great, I disagree with TfL running far out into the Home Counties
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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 18:12:35 GMT
There's no reason why Crossrail couldn't be extended sooner largely using existing infrastructure, why do you want a Charing Cross to Maidstone West service? They would both do the same job east of Abbey Wood but Crossrail would give a direct link to Canary Wharf and the West End. The existing Thameslink service isn't intended for end to end journeys although can be used for such by those not in a hurry for a cheaper fare, most people would use the high speed service to St Pancras although it does give a useful tube type service along the Woolwich line just as the Sevenoaks service does on the Catford loop line. Not much sooner, maybe 2040-45 at the earliest that’s still twenty years from now, Covid has screwed the economy, if the much more needed Bakerloo extension to Lewisham and the DLR extension to Thamesmead have been scrapped, I don’t have much hope for a CrossRail extension to Gravesend, much less Maidstone which again is much further out than Reading is, soon there’ll be the Metropolitan line extension to Oxford…. As for the Thameslink Rainham it would be better if it ran from Dartford that’s the only way it could serve a purpose but to have a service running all stops to Medway is ridiculous. As for the CX to Maidstone service, because it’ll spread the CrossRail net further afield without extending it all the way to Maidstone. But your complaining about how slow the Thameslink service to Rainham is and then proposing an equally slow Charing Cross to Maidstone West service.
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Post by route53 on Jul 18, 2021 18:52:22 GMT
Not much sooner, maybe 2040-45 at the earliest that’s still twenty years from now, Covid has screwed the economy, if the much more needed Bakerloo extension to Lewisham and the DLR extension to Thamesmead have been scrapped, I don’t have much hope for a CrossRail extension to Gravesend, much less Maidstone which again is much further out than Reading is, soon there’ll be the Metropolitan line extension to Oxford…. As for the Thameslink Rainham it would be better if it ran from Dartford that’s the only way it could serve a purpose but to have a service running all stops to Medway is ridiculous. As for the CX to Maidstone service, because it’ll spread the CrossRail net further afield without extending it all the way to Maidstone. But your complaining about how slow the Thameslink service to Rainham is and then proposing an equally slow Charing Cross to Maidstone West service. If you actually bothered to read my earlier post, I said that such a service could either do the same stops as the old Gillingham semis or run semi fast up to Dartford then Abbey Wood, also you’re ignoring that I also said that this service isn’t about getting people from Maidstone to the West End quicker, it’s more about ferrying people to CrossRail, of course you could do away with the Rainham Thameslinks entirely and have the old Medway semi fasts with a Maidstone portion as was the pattern up until the 1970s. But to have a TfL service to Maidstone and what would be next? Thameslink coming under the TfL banner? Might as well become TfSE at that stage.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 18, 2021 19:01:01 GMT
But your complaining about how slow the Thameslink service to Rainham is and then proposing an equally slow Charing Cross to Maidstone West service. If you actually bothered to read my earlier post, I said that such a service could either do the same stops as the old Gillingham semis or run semi fast up to Dartford then Abbey Wood, also you’re ignoring that I also said that this service isn’t about getting people from Maidstone to the West End quicker, it’s more about ferrying people to CrossRail, of course you could do away with the Rainham Thameslinks entirely and have the old Medway semi fasts with a Maidstone portion as was the pattern up until the 1970s. But to have a TfL service to Maidstone and what would be next? Thameslink coming under the TfL banner? Might as well become TfSE at that stage. I've read it all..... increases in other services mean that there is no longer the capacity to run Gillingham to Charing Cross semi fasts. I'm sure this has all been covered before on here.
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