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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 6, 2021 21:04:28 GMT
But what else can be done to make savings? The good days are over. People say how busy the tube is now me included so less and less are using buses! I last used a bus in July or August! Can't have half empty buses running around. But then we also have half empty tubes and trains and they are not being cut. During the pandemic was worst, I rode underground trains with me being the only person in the carriage, even in zone 1. Even now since the recovery I have been on the Victoria line, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Circle, TfL Rail, with virtually empty carriages. But they would never have the balls to cut these services. I would say a lot of routes need to have the evening services scaled down. This is where the problem is, with plenty of empty buses and too high a frequency. Some of them are also running past 1am when they do not need to. The evening duties pay at a higher rate and would also cost more money. I remember when the cuts started about 4 years ago with the W12 dropping from a 20 min headway to 30 mins. That to me is an ultimate turn off and I stopped using the route. I would rather use the 257 and W14/W13 or 123 and W13/W14. I simply do not have the time to wait that long for a bus, and even worse if it broke down involved in RTC etc. then automatically that is 1 hour. Your second statement I couldn't agree with more
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Post by vjaska on Oct 6, 2021 22:04:46 GMT
The 42 was getting very busy before it got converted to deckers. I remember seeing people being left behind on Old Kent Rd and on Tower Bridge rd unable to get on. it has lost a lot of patronage, but this is also down to never ending roadworks and cycle warfare in Central London. The 78 has also had the same problem where people have deserted it. I suspect London Overground took a lot of custom from the 42, Shoreditch to Denmark Hill in about half the time. I can't help thinking that the 42 would be better to keep the current frequency with single deckers, swap allocation with the 286 or 355, than a reduction to 4bph. Or maybe the East Dulwich section should be reduced or even withdrawn? Any loss of patronage on the 42 has nothing to do with the Overground given it was still running with very heavy loadings long after the Overground was up and running - I suspect the endless roadworks, as capitalomnibus mentioned, is the likely culprit instead Whilst the East Dulwich extension hasn’t gone as expected, reducing the frequency further won’t help it at all - either it stays with the same frequency as the rest of the route or it goes
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 6, 2021 23:09:19 GMT
But what else can be done to make savings? The good days are over. People say how busy the tube is now me included so less and less are using buses! I last used a bus in July or August! Can't have half empty buses running around. But then we also have half empty tubes and trains and they are not being cut. During the pandemic was worst, I rode underground trains with me being the only person in the carriage, even in zone 1. Even now since the recovery I have been on the Victoria line, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Circle, TfL Rail, with virtually empty carriages. But they would never have the balls to cut these services. I would say a lot of routes need to have the evening services scaled down. This is where the problem is, with plenty of empty buses and too high a frequency. Some of them are also running past 1am when they do not need to. The evening duties pay at a higher rate and would also cost more money. I remember when the cuts started about 4 years ago with the W12 dropping from a 20 min headway to 30 mins. That to me is an ultimate turn off and I stopped using the route. I would rather use the 257 and W14/W13 or 123 and W13/W14. I simply do not have the time to wait that long for a bus, and even worse if it broke down involved in RTC etc. then automatically that is 1 hour. I hear what you say, and agree with it to a degree ... but the big but is coming up ... whether rightly or wrongly, training up tube drivers takes an age ... so if bus cuts were made to the tube, the lead time to increase services would not be short. Not saying it is right or wrong, but us a big blocker to reintroducing the night tube. Buses are far more flexible than rail. If they cut the tube, and when increases were needed told it would take 18-24 months, how would that go down? Bus operation is not TfLs problem, more the operators. Everyone seems to hate privatisation, but here is a good example were the risks have been passed to the private sector. If the Tube had been privatised, and the risk not TfLs, maybe the Tube would have seen reductions.
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 7, 2021 9:10:16 GMT
I thought the tube was seeing some reductions. I thought that the extreme ends of the Picadilly, jubilee and northern line were going to be a little less frequent.
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Post by wirewiper on Oct 7, 2021 9:29:44 GMT
I thought the tube was seeing some reductions. I thought that the extreme ends of the Picadilly, jubilee and northern line were going to be a little less frequent. It is. The Bakerloo had reductions a few weeks back; mostly minor although more severe on the Harrow & Wealdstone stretch. On the Northern Line the paths of some High Barnet trains have been taken by through services to Mill Hill East instead (so same number of trains as far as Finchley Central but fewer to High Barnet). I don't know if the Piccadilly & Jubilee Lines have seen reductions yet, but I believe there were plans to have more trains turning back short of Stanmore.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 7, 2021 19:58:42 GMT
But then we also have half empty tubes and trains and they are not being cut. During the pandemic was worst, I rode underground trains with me being the only person in the carriage, even in zone 1. Even now since the recovery I have been on the Victoria line, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Circle, TfL Rail, with virtually empty carriages. But they would never have the balls to cut these services. I would say a lot of routes need to have the evening services scaled down. This is where the problem is, with plenty of empty buses and too high a frequency. Some of them are also running past 1am when they do not need to. The evening duties pay at a higher rate and would also cost more money. I remember when the cuts started about 4 years ago with the W12 dropping from a 20 min headway to 30 mins. That to me is an ultimate turn off and I stopped using the route. I would rather use the 257 and W14/W13 or 123 and W13/W14. I simply do not have the time to wait that long for a bus, and even worse if it broke down involved in RTC etc. then automatically that is 1 hour. I hear what you say, and agree with it to a degree ... but the big but is coming up ... whether rightly or wrongly, training up tube drivers takes an age ... so if bus cuts were made to the tube, the lead time to increase services would not be short. Not saying it is right or wrong, but us a big blocker to reintroducing the night tube. Buses are far more flexible than rail. If they cut the tube, and when increases were needed told it would take 18-24 months, how would that go down? Bus operation is not TfLs problem, more the operators. Everyone seems to hate privatisation, but here is a good example were the risks have been passed to the private sector. If the Tube had been privatised, and the risk not TfLs, maybe the Tube would have seen reductions. Surely it cannot be that long. Trains on National rail network are fiddled with almost every 6 months.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 7, 2021 22:20:27 GMT
I hear what you say, and agree with it to a degree ... but the big but is coming up ... whether rightly or wrongly, training up tube drivers takes an age ... so if bus cuts were made to the tube, the lead time to increase services would not be short. Not saying it is right or wrong, but us a big blocker to reintroducing the night tube. Buses are far more flexible than rail. If they cut the tube, and when increases were needed told it would take 18-24 months, how would that go down? Bus operation is not TfLs problem, more the operators. Everyone seems to hate privatisation, but here is a good example were the risks have been passed to the private sector. If the Tube had been privatised, and the risk not TfLs, maybe the Tube would have seen reductions. Surely it cannot be that long. Trains on National rail network are fiddled with almost every 6 months. They are fiddled around with, but in the grand scheme of thing staffing issues vary by very small percentages. If you are talking cutting about 20% of tube services ... getting that back will take time ... any tube drivers on here .... how long does training take, and realistically how many can be trained at any one time ... and how many drivers roughly for each 10% decrease/increase?
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Post by evergreenadam on Oct 8, 2021 7:50:40 GMT
I thought the tube was seeing some reductions. I thought that the extreme ends of the Picadilly, jubilee and northern line were going to be a little less frequent. It is. The Bakerloo had reductions a few weeks back; mostly minor although more severe on the Harrow & Wealdstone stretch. On the Northern Line the paths of some High Barnet trains have been taken by through services to Mill Hill East instead (so same number of trains as far as Finchley Central but fewer to High Barnet). I don't know if the Piccadilly & Jubilee Lines have seen reductions yet, but I believe there were plans to have more trains turning back short of Stanmore. The Bakerloo Line 2021 off peak service changes saved four trains from the Mon-Fri off peak requirement, peak requirement is unaffected. The frequency of the London Overground Euston to Watford Junction service had recently stepped up from x20mins to x15mins so the reduced x15min Bakerloo line off peak frequency beyond Stonebridge Park to Harrow & Wealdstone reflects that and creates more evenly spaced services on the joint section between Queen’s Park and Harrow & Wealdstone.
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 9, 2021 4:49:42 GMT
But what else can be done to make savings? The good days are over. People say how busy the tube is now me included so less and less are using buses! I last used a bus in July or August! Can't have half empty buses running around. But then we also have half empty tubes and trains and they are not being cut. During the pandemic was worst, I rode underground trains with me being the only person in the carriage, even in zone 1. Even now since the recovery I have been on the Victoria line, Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan, Circle, TfL Rail, with virtually empty carriages. But they would never have the balls to cut these services. I would say a lot of routes need to have the evening services scaled down. This is where the problem is, with plenty of empty buses and too high a frequency. Some of them are also running past 1am when they do not need to. The evening duties pay at a higher rate and would also cost more money. I remember when the cuts started about 4 years ago with the W12 dropping from a 20 min headway to 30 mins. That to me is an ultimate turn off and I stopped using the route. I would rather use the 257 and W14/W13 or 123 and W13/W14. I simply do not have the time to wait that long for a bus, and even worse if it broke down involved in RTC etc. then automatically that is 1 hour. Not just evenings. Some routes start their full Saturday service a little earlier than necessary. Also some routes in the City could be a little less frequent on Saturdays than during the week, unless use has significantly declined due to working from home.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 10, 2021 20:09:17 GMT
Surely it cannot be that long. Trains on National rail network are fiddled with almost every 6 months. They are fiddled around with, but in the grand scheme of thing staffing issues vary by very small percentages. If you are talking cutting about 20% of tube services ... getting that back will take time ... any tube drivers on here .... how long does training take, and realistically how many can be trained at any one time ... and how many drivers roughly for each 10% decrease/increase? I never came up with a figure of 20% of tube service, that would be drastic.
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 10, 2021 20:53:50 GMT
They are fiddled around with, but in the grand scheme of thing staffing issues vary by very small percentages. If you are talking cutting about 20% of tube services ... getting that back will take time ... any tube drivers on here .... how long does training take, and realistically how many can be trained at any one time ... and how many drivers roughly for each 10% decrease/increase? I never came up with a figure of 20% of tube service, that would be drastic. Some bus services have had cuts of 20%+ ... so would it be that drastic?
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Post by danorak on Oct 12, 2021 21:35:58 GMT
From the Commissioner's Report for the 20 October board:
Bus service changes A programme to reduce the frequency of bus services is being implemented as a reflection of the reduced use of the bus network in central and inner London over previous years. These reductions are mainly of one to two buses per hour per route, but there have been more substantial reductions on routes 507 and 521, which act as feeders to and from the National Rail services at London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo main line stations due to reductions in demand, which have been further exacerbated by the pandemic. We are also looking at more substantial structural alterations to bus routes in inner and central London, with any such changes being subject to full stakeholder and public consultation and an Equality Impact Assessment.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 12, 2021 22:18:10 GMT
From the Commissioner's Report for the 20 October board: Bus service changesA programme to reduce the frequency of bus services is being implemented as a reflection of the reduced use of the bus network in central and inner London over previous years. These reductions are mainly of one to two buses per hour per route, but there have been more substantial reductions on routes 507 and 521, which act as feeders to and from the National Rail services at London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo main line stations due to reductions in demand, which have been further exacerbated by the pandemic. We are also looking at more substantial structural alterations to bus routes in inner and central London, with any such changes being subject to full stakeholder and public consultation and an Equality Impact Assessment. And we'll see more people continue to find alternative modes as a result - there is still very much demand in Inner London yet substantially altering the structure of routes will continue to eat away at this.
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 13, 2021 9:15:01 GMT
From the Commissioner's Report for the 20 October board: Bus service changesA programme to reduce the frequency of bus services is being implemented as a reflection of the reduced use of the bus network in central and inner London over previous years. These reductions are mainly of one to two buses per hour per route, but there have been more substantial reductions on routes 507 and 521, which act as feeders to and from the National Rail services at London Bridge, Victoria and Waterloo main line stations due to reductions in demand, which have been further exacerbated by the pandemic. We are also looking at more substantial structural alterations to bus routes in inner and central London, with any such changes being subject to full stakeholder and public consultation and an Equality Impact Assessment. And we'll see more people continue to find alternative modes as a result - there is still very much demand in Inner London yet substantially altering the structure of routes will continue to eat away at this. I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses.
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Post by twobellstogo on Oct 13, 2021 9:21:29 GMT
And we'll see more people continue to find alternative modes as a result - there is still very much demand in Inner London yet substantially altering the structure of routes will continue to eat away at this. I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses. I think you may be right. Routes in Central London and parts of Inner London that parallel Underground or frequent train services for long distances I see as very vulnerable to cuts/withdrawal - routes like the 155, for example.
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