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Post by WH241 on Oct 13, 2021 9:31:40 GMT
And we'll see more people continue to find alternative modes as a result - there is still very much demand in Inner London yet substantially altering the structure of routes will continue to eat away at this. I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses. The only problem is the tube doesn't have unlimited capacity, sometimes it's awful to use at the weekends almost like peak hour crush loads. Once the Elizabeth Line opens it will help a bit. If TfL wants to save money they need to be a bit more careful with planning look at route 7 all those spare Hydrogen buses! Maybe routes should be reviewed at tender before buses are ordered.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 13, 2021 11:48:46 GMT
I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses. The only problem is the tube doesn't have unlimited capacity, sometimes it's awful to use at the weekends almost like peak hour crush loads. Once the Elizabeth Line opens it will help a bit. If TfL wants to save money they need to be a bit more careful with planning look at route 7 all those spare Hydrogen buses! Maybe routes should be reviewed at tender before buses are ordered. They’re not spare - they were allocated to the 245 once cut and the original press release did say they were to be used on the 7, 245 & N7
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Post by vjaska on Oct 13, 2021 11:51:10 GMT
And we'll see more people continue to find alternative modes as a result - there is still very much demand in Inner London yet substantially altering the structure of routes will continue to eat away at this. I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses. The tube isn’t the only alternative though and this is the problem - Uber exists, cars, cycles which people are all increasingly using as the bus declines meaning you receive less revenue so your not saving anything in the long run
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Post by WH241 on Oct 13, 2021 12:49:35 GMT
The only problem is the tube doesn't have unlimited capacity, sometimes it's awful to use at the weekends almost like peak hour crush loads. Once the Elizabeth Line opens it will help a bit. If TfL wants to save money they need to be a bit more careful with planning look at route 7 all those spare Hydrogen buses! Maybe routes should be reviewed at tender before buses are ordered. They’re not spare - they were allocated to the 245 once cut and the original press release did say they were to be used on the 7, 245 & N7 Not spare now but what I was saying is TfL should be careful when planning cuts especially when it involves newish tech like hydrogen buses the 7 had been cut back over the years and has been constant talk of cutting bus from Oxford Street so they must have know the route was at risk of a PVR cut. It's lucky the same garage runs the 245.
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Post by redexpress on Oct 13, 2021 15:04:43 GMT
They’re not spare - they were allocated to the 245 once cut and the original press release did say they were to be used on the 7, 245 & N7 Not spare now but what I was saying is TfL should be careful when planning cuts especially when it involves newish tech like hydrogen buses the 7 had been cut back over the years and has been constant talk of cutting bus from Oxford Street so they must have know the route was at risk of a PVR cut. It's lucky the same garage runs the 245. The hydrogen buses were not ordered specifically for the 7's contract. TfL received funding for 20 buses as part of the Europe-wide JIVE project, and then decided to allocate them to the 7. PV's suitability as a hydrogen fuelling site was probably a factor in that decision. That doesn't mean that the buses need to be tied to the 7. Plan B, if the buses weren't all required for the 7, would always have been to reallocate them to another PV route. Metroline have plenty of suitable routes that can be run from PV - the 245 being the current one.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 13, 2021 15:11:54 GMT
I still wouldn't be surprised if there were schemes going back to 2019 where TFL were planning another round of changes similar to the 2018 central London changes. As for people funding alternatives I'm sure that is what they want. Cheaper in the long run to pit people on the tube with its capacity levels already and effectively could save between now and 2030-34 as much as 1000 less zero emission buses. I think you may be right. Routes in Central London and parts of Inner London that parallel Underground or frequent train services for long distances I see as very vulnerable to cuts/withdrawal - routes like the 155, for example. I would disagree with a 155 withdrawal but I could certainly see a reduction in capacity between E&C and Kennington, I never understood the need for 4 bus routes between the two places and I do think the 415 should've been introduced as a Kennington to Tulse Hill/Streatham Tesco route (would've hopefully sorted out the low Valley Road PTAL) however this would've meant no Brixton to OKR direct route which would be criminal to remove.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 13, 2021 15:42:11 GMT
I think you may be right. Routes in Central London and parts of Inner London that parallel Underground or frequent train services for long distances I see as very vulnerable to cuts/withdrawal - routes like the 155, for example. I would disagree with a 155 withdrawal but I could certainly see a reduction in capacity between E&C and Kennington, I never understood the need for 4 bus routes between the two places and I do think the 415 should've been introduced as a Kennington to Tulse Hill/Streatham Tesco route (would've hopefully sorted out the low Valley Road PTAL) however this would've meant no Brixton to OKR direct route which would be criminal to remove. Terminating buses in Kennington is only used for short turns - having a full time route terminate there isn't ideal as it's just missing the objectives of where most want to go to. Old Kent Road to Streatham, Tesco would be fine but the issue will be running anything along Leigham Vale or Valley Road with traffic and parked cars
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Post by greenboy on Oct 13, 2021 16:13:26 GMT
I think you may be right. Routes in Central London and parts of Inner London that parallel Underground or frequent train services for long distances I see as very vulnerable to cuts/withdrawal - routes like the 155, for example. I would disagree with a 155 withdrawal but I could certainly see a reduction in capacity between E&C and Kennington, I never understood the need for 4 bus routes between the two places and I do think the 415 should've been introduced as a Kennington to Tulse Hill/Streatham Tesco route (would've hopefully sorted out the low Valley Road PTAL) however this would've meant no Brixton to OKR direct route which would be criminal to remove. I would think the 333 is the most vulnerable, I don't really get your point about losing the OKR 415 link would be criminal, it's a potentially useful round the corner link but it's pretty poorly used. The 415 could even be axed completely rather than reduce the 133.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 13, 2021 16:27:36 GMT
I would disagree with a 155 withdrawal but I could certainly see a reduction in capacity between E&C and Kennington, I never understood the need for 4 bus routes between the two places and I do think the 415 should've been introduced as a Kennington to Tulse Hill/Streatham Tesco route (would've hopefully sorted out the low Valley Road PTAL) however this would've meant no Brixton to OKR direct route which would be criminal to remove. I would think the 333 is the most vulnerable, I don't really get your point about losing the OKR 415 link would be criminal, it's a potentially useful round the corner link but it's pretty poorly used. The 415 could even be axed completely rather than reduce the 133. Perhaps it's down to a local like vjaska but I think a Brixton to OKR link is useful and certainly from my limited experiences of the 415 loadings picked up on the route since the OKR extension.
The 415 shouldn't be fully axed, I think it was a sensible idea introducing a third route back in 2008 down the Tulse Hill with the 432 reduced because loadings were clearly quite high down there, however the 432 has now been re-increased and I imagine the Southern Rail strikes changed people's travel patterns (which is probably what caused the 432 to be re-increased)
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 13, 2021 16:29:26 GMT
Be interesting if any of those rumours from a few months ago come true. 3 to Elephant, 12 to Marylebone, 388 to OKR, Tesco, 43 to Moorgate. The 148 was rumoured to be under threat and in fairness part of it was later revealed to have been considered for withdrawal.
As for Kennington to Elephant there may be a thinning if only for the reason to free up stand space at Elephant. Either the 155 or 333 become more local routes and terminate at Stockwell Station?
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 13, 2021 16:32:27 GMT
I would think the 333 is the most vulnerable, I don't really get your point about losing the OKR 415 link would be criminal, it's a potentially useful round the corner link but it's pretty poorly used. The 415 could even be axed completely rather than reduce the 133. Perhaps it's down to a local like vjaska but I think a Brixton to OKR link is useful and certainly from my limited experiences of the 415 loadings picked up on the route since the OKR extension. The 415 shouldn't be fully axed, I think it was a sensible idea introducing a third route back in 2008 down the Tulse Hill with the 432 reduced because loadings were clearly quite high down there, however the 432 has now been re-increased and I imagine the Southern Rail strikes changed people's travel patterns (which is probably what caused the 432 to be re-increased)
The 2 has now cut thou so had probably balanced out the 432 increase. The only other option would be to send something else to Tulse Hill (bit loopy but a DD 355 could maintain capacity between Brixton and Tulse Hill Station.
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Post by greenboy on Oct 13, 2021 16:37:47 GMT
I would think the 333 is the most vulnerable, I don't really get your point about losing the OKR 415 link would be criminal, it's a potentially useful round the corner link but it's pretty poorly used. The 415 could even be axed completely rather than reduce the 133. Perhaps it's down to a local like vjaska but I think a Brixton to OKR link is useful and certainly from my limited experiences of the 415 loadings picked up on the route since the OKR extension.
The 415 shouldn't be fully axed, I think it was a sensible idea introducing a third route back in 2008 down the Tulse Hill with the 432 reduced because loadings were clearly quite high down there, however the 432 has now been re-increased and I imagine the Southern Rail strikes changed people's travel patterns (which is probably what caused the 432 to be re-increased)
If one of the four routes between E&C and Kennington has to go I would think it's between the 333 and 415. The round the corner OKR link is probably nice to have but it's a fairly easy change of bus at E&C without it.
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 13, 2021 19:41:15 GMT
Perhaps it's down to a local like vjaska but I think a Brixton to OKR link is useful and certainly from my limited experiences of the 415 loadings picked up on the route since the OKR extension.
The 415 shouldn't be fully axed, I think it was a sensible idea introducing a third route back in 2008 down the Tulse Hill with the 432 reduced because loadings were clearly quite high down there, however the 432 has now been re-increased and I imagine the Southern Rail strikes changed people's travel patterns (which is probably what caused the 432 to be re-increased)
If one of the four routes between E&C and Kennington has to go I would think it's between the 333 and 415. The round the corner OKR link is probably nice to have but it's a fairly easy change of bus at E&C without it. I would suspect the 333 would go, there are a few other options from E&C to Brixton, Streatham and Tooting plus the hopper ticket would make the current journey easy enough through current connections. As much as I hate the concept of the hopper ticket no doubt it will form the basis of larger bus decisions by TfL for years to come.
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 13, 2021 19:44:15 GMT
If one of the four routes between E&C and Kennington has to go I would think it's between the 333 and 415. The round the corner OKR link is probably nice to have but it's a fairly easy change of bus at E&C without it. I would suspect the 333 would go, there are a few other options from E&C to Brixton, Streatham and Tooting plus the hopper ticket would make the current journey easy enough through current connections. As much as I hate the concept of the hopper ticket no doubt it will form the basis of larger bus decisions by TfL for years to come. Im not sure the 57 could cope without the 333 thou. There has always been 2 routes along that stretch (57/77/95/133/181).
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 13, 2021 20:08:32 GMT
I would suspect the 333 would go, there are a few other options from E&C to Brixton, Streatham and Tooting plus the hopper ticket would make the current journey easy enough through current connections. As much as I hate the concept of the hopper ticket no doubt it will form the basis of larger bus decisions by TfL for years to come. Im not sure the 57 could cope without the 333 thou. There has always been 2 routes along that stretch (57/77/95/133/181). There would still be the 201 to Southcroft Road to support the 57 and then the 127 on Southcroft Road itself to slop up any passengers to Tooting. A minor frequency increase on the 57 would solve any problems though and also support usage on the Raynes Park to Kingston section.
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