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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 2, 2022 13:16:29 GMT
As others have said this ongoing funding crisis is 100% political as the government and mayor are from different parties. Moving on for the future, somehow I cannot see the transport network of a capital city entering managed decline. Nah, it wouldn't even benefit the government if as said they want to level London down. My honest prediction is that the DFT will takeover TFL then run the transport network how they wish to do so. Boris Johnson wants his hands on LONDON TRANSPORT (My prediction) to simply continue his legacy which is the LT buses. Reason why I predicted that they could be scrapped was purely based again on political reasons coming from the Mayor, basically you refuse to fund us then we'll scrap your buses. Another thing to factor is major bus projects, electrification comes immediately to mind. The government are very "pro green" or seems that way so they would want buses across the country to be electrified asap. That is it from me for the day, night I doubt TfL would go back to central government, just cannot see it going that far and more hot air than anything else. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 2, 2022 13:23:24 GMT
Not sure if it will work on the section where 253/254 are on their own but what do I know Think the 254 is the more critical route in my view but admittedly the 106 has a long overlap with the 254. Shades of 48/55 …. A slight bump up in frequency of 106/253 and you can potentially live without the 254. Not ideal though I would also suspect that the 259 is up for an extension at the northern end so May get a cutback at the southern end Whilst the 106 does get busy between Finsbury Park & Stoke Newington and should not have received the foolish frequency reduction it got a few years ago there is no way the 253 could cope without the 254. Whilst we are looking at a pre 2003 network in some places I'm not so sure as to whether the 253/254 have dropped off so much that they should be re-merged or even have one removed entirely and bump up the 106/253 frequencies, not to mention as to what would happen to the Aldgate section. The 106 as has been mentioned by enviroPB has dropped in usage between Bethnal Green and Whitechapel because the service no longer serves the station due to Durward Street being unusable due to Crossrail works having previously taken place whereas the 254 has stayed consistently busy.
I use the 29/253/254/259 a fair amount on the corridor between Finsbury Park & Camden and I don't know whether if a service were to be removed on that section whether everything would be able to cope. All 4 have received frequency reductions and I think that whilst in some parts of the day the capacity is completely inadequate, by the looks of things there is no more fat needed to trim on those 4 routes specifically from my observations, although I think it could be argued there is some fat to trim on parts of their own routes (Edmonton to Stamford Hill potentially losing the 349, Hackney to Clapton is quite overbussed so perhaps if TFL wished to reduce capacity between the two the 38 could even more shorts or even the entire service culled at Hackney?)
On your basis there is excess fat to trim on Hoe Street in Walthamstow, I would say the 357 is one that should be trimmed. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 2, 2022 13:25:53 GMT
Whilst the 106 does get busy between Finsbury Park & Stoke Newington and should not have received the foolish frequency reduction it got a few years ago there is no way the 253 could cope without the 254. Whilst we are looking at a pre 2003 network in some places I'm not so sure as to whether the 253/254 have dropped off so much that they should be re-merged or even have one removed entirely and bump up the 106/253 frequencies, not to mention as to what would happen to the Aldgate section. The 106 as has been mentioned by enviroPB has dropped in usage between Bethnal Green and Whitechapel because the service no longer serves the station due to Durward Street being unusable due to Crossrail works having previously taken place whereas the 254 has stayed consistently busy.
I use the 29/253/254/259 a fair amount on the corridor between Finsbury Park & Camden and I don't know whether if a service were to be removed on that section whether everything would be able to cope. All 4 have received frequency reductions and I think that whilst in some parts of the day the capacity is completely inadequate, by the looks of things there is no more fat needed to trim on those 4 routes specifically from my observations, although I think it could be argued there is some fat to trim on parts of their own routes (Edmonton to Stamford Hill potentially losing the 349, Hackney to Clapton is quite overbussed so perhaps if TFL wished to reduce capacity between the two the 38 could even more shorts or even the entire service culled at Hackney?)
On your basis there is excess fat to trim on Hoe Street in Walthamstow, I would say the 357 is one that should be trimmed. The 357 does seem like an easy route to do away with and perhaps the 215 could be extended to Whipps Cross to replace it? I suppose it would lend the 97 support all the way down to Bakers Arms. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 2, 2022 13:30:27 GMT
I fully agree with everything you're saying but I do look at the bus network slightly more optimistically as a swing’s and roundabouts situation. The 1980’s saw chronic decline (pretty much like what we’re seeing now, but maybe on an even larger scale) before recovering again in the 1990s, and then bus usage exploding up until 2015. Now we’re in a period of decline again and I do think that if falling patronage can recover from the 1980’s, they can recover from this too. But almost definitely not yet. I'm not too sure if that's the best way of looking at it, the 90s was around the time people started realising excessive car usage wasn't doing much good for their lungs so started using public transport. However now that's not as much of an issue as it was with Hybrid and electric cars around, and the remaining fuel burning cars being a lot greener. I think another issue is the rise of Uber, why would someone use a bus when they can get an Uber? The Uber I got the other day was a Tesla which was going to be a lot cleaner than the Hybrid buses I'd have used, chances are otherwise it'd have been a Prius which would have been just as clean. Why wouldn't I just drive? TfL making buses harder to use isn't helping one bit. Even little things like ridiculous provision at night isn't helping, I don't want to be running around chasing last buses when really I could just drive around in my car or get an Uber when I please. TfL if they destroy buses do risk people not coming back to them at all. I've not heard anyone recently tell me they want to take a bus anywhere, it's always the train or the "who's driving" question. Once cars are more widely environmentally friendly they are a no brainer, they get you where you want when you want. lol @ excessive car usage not being good for your lungs. That is a bit laughable, so using the bus a lot would be better for your lungs. It makes no difference on that statement. So if I excessively use my bicycle riding behind a car, it would be better for my lungs??? People started using public transport in the 90's as it was getting faster, quicker midibus serves that were fast in speed. I remember the time when timetable said fast and frequent, those days are long gone. Various parking restrictions within London is what forced car users onto the train and general traffic. The bus network at that time was modelled to be feeder routes to the train network, so many were using the buses to get to stations etc to get the train. Fast forward 20 years, all these side road closures, 20 mph, roadworks etc. has made these feeder bus routes slow. So the quicker alternative has been bicycle or uber. The bus has been the biggest loser down to non other than TfL |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 2, 2022 13:43:33 GMT
Apparently it will remain single decker Crikey! No wonder they are proposing to ditch the 11 route number and keep the 507 number! What we don’t know is how frequently it will run with the single deckers. That's what I'm hearing, hope I'm wrong though  |
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Post by snowman on Jun 2, 2022 14:33:01 GMT
Apparently it will remain single decker Crikey! No wonder they are proposing to ditch the 11 route number and keep the 507 number! What we don’t know is how frequently it will run with the single deckers. The 11 is a very old route Liverpool Street - Shepherds Bush area (via Victoria, Chelsea and Fulham Palace road). Not sure when it started but LGOC was running it 110 years ago with it terminating outside the White City Exhibition grounds in Wood Lane The revised 507 is a long way from being a straight route 11 replacement |
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Post by twobellstogo on Jun 2, 2022 14:58:40 GMT
Crikey! No wonder they are proposing to ditch the 11 route number and keep the 507 number! What we don’t know is how frequently it will run with the single deckers. The 11 is a very old route Liverpool Street - Shepherds Bush area (via Victoria, Chelsea and Fulham Palace road). Not sure when it started but LGOC was running it 110 years ago with it terminating outside the White City Exhibition grounds in Wood Lane The revised 507 is a long way from being a straight route 11 replacement Not massively related, but it does look like 5xx numbers are increasing going to be used for standard, rather than temporary routes, and 7xx numbers used for temporary routes instead : witness the recent 718 and 733. Re the 11, I’d consider calling the revised 26 the 11 instead, and call it as a withdrawal from Vic to Fulham and extension to Hackney Wick. |
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Post by greenboy on Jun 2, 2022 15:02:19 GMT
The 11 is a very old route Liverpool Street - Shepherds Bush area (via Victoria, Chelsea and Fulham Palace road). Not sure when it started but LGOC was running it 110 years ago with it terminating outside the White City Exhibition grounds in Wood Lane The revised 507 is a long way from being a straight route 11 replacement Not massively related, but it does look like 5xx numbers are increasing going to be used for standard, rather than temporary routes, and 7xx numbers used for temporary routes instead : witness the recent 718 and 733. Re the 11, I’d consider calling the revised 26 the 11 instead, and call it as a withdrawal from Vic to Fulham and extension to Hackney Wick. Yes I think that would be the best option and number the 507, Waterloo to Fulham Broadway, the 311. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Jun 2, 2022 15:26:11 GMT
Not massively related, but it does look like 5xx numbers are increasing going to be used for standard, rather than temporary routes, and 7xx numbers used for temporary routes instead : witness the recent 718 and 733. Re the 11, I’d consider calling the revised 26 the 11 instead, and call it as a withdrawal from Vic to Fulham and extension to Hackney Wick. Yes I think that would be the best option and number the 507, Waterloo to Fulham Broadway, the 311. There's no doubt that Fulham and Chelsea residents will find the 507 number incredibly confusing, especially replacing such an established service like the 11. Given its resemblance to the 11 and 211 routes I absolutely agree that 311 should be used |
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 2, 2022 15:35:28 GMT
I'm not too sure if that's the best way of looking at it, the 90s was around the time people started realising excessive car usage wasn't doing much good for their lungs so started using public transport. However now that's not as much of an issue as it was with Hybrid and electric cars around, and the remaining fuel burning cars being a lot greener. I think another issue is the rise of Uber, why would someone use a bus when they can get an Uber? The Uber I got the other day was a Tesla which was going to be a lot cleaner than the Hybrid buses I'd have used, chances are otherwise it'd have been a Prius which would have been just as clean. Why wouldn't I just drive? TfL making buses harder to use isn't helping one bit. Even little things like ridiculous provision at night isn't helping, I don't want to be running around chasing last buses when really I could just drive around in my car or get an Uber when I please. TfL if they destroy buses do risk people not coming back to them at all. I've not heard anyone recently tell me they want to take a bus anywhere, it's always the train or the "who's driving" question. Once cars are more widely environmentally friendly they are a no brainer, they get you where you want when you want. lol @ excessive car usage not being good for your lungs. That is a bit laughable, so using the bus a lot would be better for your lungs. It makes no difference on that statement. So if I excessively use my bicycle riding behind a car, it would be better for my lungs??? People started using public transport in the 90's as it was getting faster, quicker midibus serves that were fast in speed. I remember the time when timetable said fast and frequent, those days are long gone. Various parking restrictions within London is what forced car users onto the train and general traffic. The bus network at that time was modelled to be feeder routes to the train network, so many were using the buses to get to stations etc to get the train. Fast forward 20 years, all these side road closures, 20 mph, roadworks etc. has made these feeder bus routes slow. So the quicker alternative has been bicycle or uber. The bus has been the biggest loser down to non other than TfL True, all these "LTNs", School Routes, 20 Zones have put people off driving in London, unless it's the outskirts of town. Limited parking makes more go to the likes of Westfield or Lakeside or just buy online. Cost of living is also making people decide what they spend their money on. Some prefer the comfort of their own car, compared to being squeezed onto a bus (being held to regulate the service), full of rowdy schoolkids or being held up by someone who's contactless card is not working, but is arguing with the driver that the reader doesn't work  An Uber which can arrive in 3 minutes and take you door to door in comfort is going to be the choice for most, especially in the age of Covid. Cars are getting cleaner, even diesels, but with TfL sweating assets, a lot of the buses are getting old. Roads are very quiet unless everyone is out there on The Mall vigorously waving little flags waiting to see the Royals |
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Post by evergreenadam on Jun 2, 2022 15:44:18 GMT
Yes I think that would be the best option and number the 507, Waterloo to Fulham Broadway, the 311. There's no doubt that Fulham and Chelsea residents will find the 507 number incredibly confusing, especially replacing such an established service like the 11. Given its resemblance to the 11 and 211 routes I absolutely agree that 311 should be used I’m quite happy with the 26 retaining it’s route number, it was designed to replace the eastern part of the 6 between Aldwych and Hackney Wick when the cross city routes were split in the 1992 Central Area bus changes. However unlike the other cross city routes the new 6 and 26 never had an overlapping section as the 26 had a dual role in replacing the Fleet Street - Waterloo Red Arrow Route, so it deviated to Waterloo at Aldwych instead of continuing on towards the West End. With that perspective extending the 26 further west would reinstate some links lost in 1992. The revised 507 definitely needs to be numbered either 11 or 311, I don’t mind which. Single deckers seems lunacy. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Jun 2, 2022 15:50:28 GMT
There's no doubt that Fulham and Chelsea residents will find the 507 number incredibly confusing, especially replacing such an established service like the 11. Given its resemblance to the 11 and 211 routes I absolutely agree that 311 should be used I’m quite happy with the 26 retaining it’s route number, it was designed to replace the eastern part of the 6 between Aldwych and Hackney Wick when the cross city routes were split in the 1992 Central Area bus changes. However unlike the other cross city routes the new 6 and 26 never had an overlapping section as the 26 had a dual role in replacing the Fleet Street - Waterloo Red Arrow Route, so it deviated to Waterloo at Aldwych instead of continuing on towards the West End. With that perspective extending the 26 further west would reinstate some links lost in 1992. The revised 507 definitely needs to be numbered either 11 or 311, I don’t mind which. Single deckers seems lunacy. Chelsea to Westminster goes from 2 LT routes to 1 Single deck route... I get gradually declining Central London demand but that is ridiculous |
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Post by greenboy on Jun 2, 2022 15:53:50 GMT
There's no doubt that Fulham and Chelsea residents will find the 507 number incredibly confusing, especially replacing such an established service like the 11. Given its resemblance to the 11 and 211 routes I absolutely agree that 311 should be used I’m quite happy with the 26 retaining it’s route number, it was designed to replace the eastern part of the 6 between Aldwych and Hackney Wick when the cross city routes were split in the 1992 Central Area bus changes. However unlike the other cross city routes the new 6 and 26 never had an overlapping section as the 26 had a dual role in replacing the Fleet Street - Waterloo Red Arrow Route, so it deviated to Waterloo at Aldwych instead of continuing on towards the West End. With that perspective extending the 26 further west would reinstate some links lost in 1992. The revised 507 definitely needs to be numbered either 11 or 311, I don’t mind which. Single deckers seems lunacy. I think it would be better to keep the number 11 for Victoria to Hackney Wick, well known sightseeing route etc. The 311/507 should be ok with single deckers, probably get a higher frequency because of them. Not much other option really with the SEe's and charging equipment at RA. I would imagine the N507/311 will be double deckers from SW? |
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Post by ian on Jun 2, 2022 16:47:17 GMT
Chalk Farm and Camden Market loses 1/2 of the buses running through it now to just the 27 and 168, with only the 168 running through it. I might be losing the plot by now but won't it gain the 189? |
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Post by greg on Jun 2, 2022 17:04:54 GMT
Chalk Farm and Camden Market loses 1/2 of the buses running through it now to just the 27 and 168, with only the 168 running through it. I might be losing the plot by now but won't it gain the 189? I had posted that before seeing the consultation, it gains the 88 and 189 instead |
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