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Post by greenboy on Nov 3, 2021 17:19:48 GMT
Yes I understand what you're saying but in reality it's just another level of bureaucracy. But how else would you hold TfL responsible if they withdrew your local route tomorrow without discussion or an opportunity for reprise if not through a consultation program? Routes like the 19 were saved from cuts in recent times because the process highlighted the withdrawal and I’m sure when it comes round to the expected Autumn 2022 cuts we will see local politicians leading calls to save their local routes because of the consultation process. Well ultimately the electorate can hold the mayor responsible and it allows TfL to use the back door method of just reducing frequencies instead, nobody had to be consulted about the disastrous frequency cut on the N9. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 3, 2021 18:22:41 GMT
But how else would you hold TfL responsible if they withdrew your local route tomorrow without discussion or an opportunity for reprise if not through a consultation program? Routes like the 19 were saved from cuts in recent times because the process highlighted the withdrawal and I’m sure when it comes round to the expected Autumn 2022 cuts we will see local politicians leading calls to save their local routes because of the consultation process. Well ultimately the electorate can hold the mayor responsible and it allows TfL to use the back door method of just reducing frequencies instead, nobody had to be consulted about the disastrous frequency cut on the N9. But how can the electorate do that without a formal consultation process in which to make comments? TfL don’t need a consultation in order to reduce frequencies so that wouldn’t change. |
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Post by greenboy on Nov 3, 2021 18:37:51 GMT
Well ultimately the electorate can hold the mayor responsible and it allows TfL to use the back door method of just reducing frequencies instead, nobody had to be consulted about the disastrous frequency cut on the N9. But how can the electorate do that without a formal consultation process in which to make comments? TfL don’t need a consultation in order to reduce frequencies so that wouldn’t change. That was my point that TfL can bypass the whole process by reducing frequencies instead, the current system is little more than a cosmetic exercise. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 3, 2021 18:41:17 GMT
But how can the electorate do that without a formal consultation process in which to make comments? TfL don’t need a consultation in order to reduce frequencies so that wouldn’t change. That was my point that TfL can bypass the whole process by reducing frequencies instead, the current system is little more than a cosmetic exercise. So they can never restructure, extend on introduce new routes again because there would be no process in place to do? |
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Post by greenboy on Nov 3, 2021 18:48:26 GMT
That was my point that TfL can bypass the whole process by reducing frequencies instead, the current system is little more than a cosmetic exercise. So they can never restructure, extend on introduce new routes again because there would be no process in place to do? Just do it, less than 1,000 responses to the Croydon and Sutton consultant speaks for itself. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 3, 2021 19:00:57 GMT
So they can never restructure, extend on introduce new routes again because there would be no process in place to do? Just do it, less than 1,000 responses to the Croydon and Sutton consultant speaks for itself. Shame it would be illegal to do so. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 3, 2021 19:05:43 GMT
Just do it, less than 1,000 responses to the Croydon and Sutton consultant speaks for itself. Shame it would be illegal to do so. Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? |
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Post by southlondon413 on Nov 3, 2021 19:20:41 GMT
Shame it would be illegal to do so. Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? Yes, they are called statutory consultations. Legally TfL has to consult on certain changes some of which include bus route changes but not frequency reductions or timetable changes etc. But new routes, extensions and withdrawals would fall under the statutory category and require a public consultation period. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 3, 2021 20:52:41 GMT
Shame it would be illegal to do so. Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? My point was the consultation is not legally binding and the results dosent have to taken up by TFL. How many times have we seen consultions where it says '56% were against the changes, 32% in favour and 12% don't know, we have decided to proceed with our plans'. |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Nov 3, 2021 21:30:08 GMT
Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? My point was the consultation is not legally binding and the results dosent have to taken up by TFL. How many times have we seen consultions where it says '56% were against the changes, 32% in favour and 12% don't know, we have decided to proceed with our plans'. See here for a similar problem with the 27 cutback. |
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Post by cl54 on Nov 3, 2021 21:58:12 GMT
My point was the consultation is not legally binding and the results dosent have to taken up by TFL. How many times have we seen consultions where it says '56% were against the changes, 32% in favour and 12% don't know, we have decided to proceed with our plans'. See here for a similar problem with the 27 cutback.This is where the current bus operation people have not come across what happens when there are fewer buses on a route. Less buses mean that it will take longer for passengers to board and the reduced service interval can't be maintained. Then breakdowns and drivers being late for changeovers cause a poor service from the passenger viewpoint. Theory and practice. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 5, 2021 1:03:36 GMT
Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? Yes, they are called statutory consultations. Legally TfL has to consult on certain changes some of which include bus route changes but not frequency reductions or timetable changes etc. But new routes, extensions and withdrawals would fall under the statutory category and require a public consultation period. I have been looking for a definition that defines a bus route change assomething that requires a statutory consultation without any luck .... are you able to point me in the right direction. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 5, 2021 1:09:22 GMT
Would it actually be illegal or just against TfL's own rules and governance? My point was the consultation is not legally binding and the results dosent have to taken up by TFL. How many times have we seen consultions where it says '56% were against the changes, 32% in favour and 12% don't know, we have decided to proceed with our plans'. The thing is that anything that proposes a cut to anything will be deemed unpopular .... I would expect 50%+ to be against any kind of cut made by local authorities. Protestors generally shout loudest. Consultations are not a referendums, even when you have been told the results of the people will be abided by, then they turn out to be two faced liars ... ay Cllr Ali! |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 5, 2021 1:18:22 GMT
My point was the consultation is not legally binding and the results dosent have to taken up by TFL. How many times have we seen consultions where it says '56% were against the changes, 32% in favour and 12% don't know, we have decided to proceed with our plans'. The thing is that anything that proposes a cut to anything will be deemed unpopular .... I would expect 50%+ to be against any kind of cut made by local authorities. Protestors generally shout loudest. Consultations are not a referendums, even when you have been told the results of the people will be abided by, then they turn out to be two faced liars ... ay Cllr Ali! Then there is no point having a consultation if the majority are going to be ignored. As a transport provider, if 70% say they disagree with a change, is it any wonder why there is a decline when you simply plough on despite the opposition. |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 5, 2021 1:20:11 GMT
The thing is that anything that proposes a cut to anything will be deemed unpopular .... I would expect 50%+ to be against any kind of cut made by local authorities. Protestors generally shout loudest. Consultations are not a referendums, even when you have been told the results of the people will be abided by, then they turn out to be two faced liars ... ay Cllr Ali! Then there is no point having a consultation if the majority are going to be ignored. As a transport provider, if 70% say they disagree with a change, is it any wonder why there is a decline when you simply plough on despite the opposition. Honestly do you ever expect a consultation to show a majority in favour of cuts? |
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