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Post by WH241 on Jan 18, 2022 22:46:03 GMT
I’m sorry but this people can’t wait 15 minutes excuse is pathetic! If I want to use a local route to me to Mile End I have to wait. Anyway who in reality goes to a bus stop and waits nowadays when we get time the wait better using phone apps. People have become spoilt in London and would have melt down if they had to use transport outside of London even just on the Essex border they would love a bus every 15 mins. Yes people are leaving transport but it will only go so far not everyone has a choice or can afford a car, trains or cabs. I would say it's the apps that have made this worse, while you can time a stop outside your house it's hard to time a connection. People in London are spoilt, but the issue I'd say is that you can't change this. You can't tell people to deal with it when they simply won't. It's what finished off the RV1 and dare I say many more routes will eventually join. While 15min may seem petty, people would rather do something in those 15 minutes. I certainly wouldn't wait 15 minutes, whenever I see a bus to Asda is a 15 minute wait I just hop in my car instead and I know many others do too. Today one of my colleagues drove through the congestion zone because they didn't want to wait for a 21 as they claimed it was too infrequent. I use my car a lot but also mindful of rip off parking charges and the fact most places are permit only now and a right faff for visitor permits (Newham has a awful online system where as before you could use pre purchase paper tickets). Public transport does win most times. That seems madness to pay the congestion charge and sit in central London traffic. Based on some comments here the last few days we might as well just scrap buses. It seems if the buses isn’t ever 5 to 6 mins it’s not good enough. Im not trying to be argumentative but some of these arguments against buses leave me wondering just want people honestly expect from cheap public transport. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 18, 2022 22:50:44 GMT
I would say it's the apps that have made this worse, while you can time a stop outside your house it's hard to time a connection. People in London are spoilt, but the issue I'd say is that you can't change this. You can't tell people to deal with it when they simply won't. It's what finished off the RV1 and dare I say many more routes will eventually join. While 15min may seem petty, people would rather do something in those 15 minutes. I certainly wouldn't wait 15 minutes, whenever I see a bus to Asda is a 15 minute wait I just hop in my car instead and I know many others do too. Today one of my colleagues drove through the congestion zone because they didn't want to wait for a 21 as they claimed it was too infrequent. I use my car a lot but also mindful of rip off parking charges and the fact most places are permit only now and a right faff for visitor permits (Newham has a awful online system where as before you could use pre purchase paper tickets). Public transport does win most times. That seems madness to pay the congestion charge and sit in central London traffic. Based on some comments here the last few days we might as well just scrap buses. It seems if the buses isn’t ever 5 to 6 mins it’s not good enough. Im not trying to be argumentative but some of these arguments against buses leave me wondering just want people honestly expect from cheap public transport. That wasn't the point of the whole discussion surrounding frequencies - the point is if you have had a route that was running at higher frequency for a lengthy period of time and suddenly it drops to a much poorer frequency, it's only natural that people question waiting an extended time for something. This is why many routes outside of London have died because when the frequency gets cut, people get driven back into cars and other forms of transport leaving the elderly and poorest either without a link or spending more money on owning things like cars. Route that have long been 15 minutes and operate fine at that level are a completely different discussion |
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Post by busman on Jan 19, 2022 0:30:08 GMT
I also don't think many people particularly like overcrowding on services so its good not to be too infrequent. But in reality buses should be carrying decent loads not running half empty. People are happy to board crowded trains with crush loadings. With all respect, I completely disagree. Waiting for a 472 in the snow with my wife and new born baby in a buggy and having to wait for the third bus before we could board gave me the motivation to learn how to drive. Waiting for the 469 on numerous occasions only for it to sail past because it was too full has resulted in me taking an uber to the train station if travelling in the morning peak hours with little room for delay. If I wait 15 minutes for a bus, I expect to be able to board and to have a seat if possible. But this has nothing to do with bus use, which is why I put it in this part of the forum. Taking the bus for a return journey will cost more than £2. The idea that the humble bus somehow mitigates this stealth tax is misplaced. Journeys still need to be made except we will pay £2 a day by car or give up our cars and pay TfL considerably more to use their transport. This stupid war on car users has to end. I’ve worked out this stealth tax will probably cost me around £600 a year if it goes ahead. I’m fortunate enough to be able to afford that. However there will be many families living on the breadline hard squeezed by council tax increases and energy price hikes who will find it hard to find another £10 a week just to take their children to school. They are the ones who will suffer the most. Yes, shock horror, not everyone in a car is wealthy. Roads will become the exclusive preserve of those with money to pay the charges or to buy a zero emission car. Khan has the gall to use the environment as a smokescreen to push this through whilst waltzing around in a Land Rover. Like many of these politicians, he’s an absolute hypocrite. Flying thousands of miles to environmental conferences, whilst making it all the harder for the average Joe to move about with any freedom. People should take to the streets if this stealth tax goes ahead. It is grossly unfair on those with lesser financial means. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 19, 2022 2:26:12 GMT
But in reality buses should be carrying decent loads not running half empty. People are happy to board crowded trains with crush loadings. With all respect, I completely disagree. Waiting for a 472 in the snow with my wife and new born baby in a buggy and having to wait for the third bus before we could board gave me the motivation to learn how to drive. Waiting for the 469 on numerous occasions only for it to sail past because it was too full has resulted in me taking an uber to the train station if travelling in the morning peak hours with little room for delay. If I wait 15 minutes for a bus, I expect to be able to board and to have a seat if possible. Buses shouldn't be run to a system of only having full buses anyway, usually demand has to take into account some spare capacity in any event so your absolutely right on that. But this has nothing to do with bus use, which is why I put it in this part of the forum. Taking the bus for a return journey will cost more than £2. The idea that the humble bus somehow mitigates this stealth tax is misplaced. Journeys still need to be made except we will pay £2 a day by car or give up our cars and pay TfL considerably more to use their transport. This stupid war on car users has to end. Surely, you'll save money by taking public transport when you factor in all associated costs with cars even before factoring in the new charges? Personally, I think there are better ways to go such as a straight up road pricing system rather than going via an emissions charge but obviously, I'm going to be in the minority on that one  |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jan 19, 2022 5:27:56 GMT
Our hapless mayor now has ideas to charge people £2 a day for driving in Greater London and TfL are to consult on this ridiculous idea. Conveniently disguised as helping the government meet its environmental goals (as if Khan is ever concerned with helping the government), this is nothing more than a tax that will disproportionately impact the poorest, as well as businesses on the outer boroughs of Greater London. This is on top of the eye watering council tax increases we are facing. High rise poor quality claustrophobic housing owned by rich Asian investors, road works everywhere and road infrastructure being deployed all over the place creating traffic jams and wasting money. Can’t wait to see the back of this mayor. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60030127.ampI know this is controversial, but I agree. We have an extensive bus network in London, people should be able to wait fifteen minutes for a bus. It won't impact the poor the most, it'll be the selfish, rich twits that think that the bus is below them. Those that can't afford a car already use the bus. London Buses are a public service that we need to be grateful for, not look down upon. 100% it is worth charging this, I will strongly support this consultation, it kills three birds with one stone. One we bring in money, two we bring down car use, meeting environmental goals and thirdly we support public transport. By the way, sorry if my post sounded like it was attacking you, I'm just frustrated with this. All I say, bring it on! Can I be honest with you when you speak about the environmental side of things. This is not about saving the environment it's about adding more tax to people driving. As soon as all the cars on the road are either hydrogen or electric what else will they come up with? This is where people really need to sit down and think about it because it's only when more things are implemented thats when people realise how far these people have gone. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 19, 2022 8:39:42 GMT
But in reality buses should be carrying decent loads not running half empty. People are happy to board crowded trains with crush loadings. With all respect, I completely disagree. Waiting for a 472 in the snow with my wife and new born baby in a buggy and having to wait for the third bus before we could board gave me the motivation to learn how to drive. Waiting for the 469 on numerous occasions only for it to sail past because it was too full has resulted in me taking an uber to the train station if travelling in the morning peak hours with little room for delay. If I wait 15 minutes for a bus, I expect to be able to board and to have a seat if possible. But this has nothing to do with bus use, which is why I put it in this part of the forum. Taking the bus for a return journey will cost more than £2. The idea that the humble bus somehow mitigates this stealth tax is misplaced. Journeys still need to be made except we will pay £2 a day by car or give up our cars and pay TfL considerably more to use their transport. This stupid war on car users has to end. I’ve worked out this stealth tax will probably cost me around £600 a year if it goes ahead. I’m fortunate enough to be able to afford that. However there will be many families living on the breadline hard squeezed by council tax increases and energy price hikes who will find it hard to find another £10 a week just to take their children to school. They are the ones who will suffer the most. Yes, shock horror, not everyone in a car is wealthy. Roads will become the exclusive preserve of those with money to pay the charges or to buy a zero emission car. Khan has the gall to use the environment as a smokescreen to push this through whilst waltzing around in a Land Rover. Like many of these politicians, he’s an absolute hypocrite. Flying thousands of miles to environmental conferences, whilst making it all the harder for the average Joe to move about with any freedom. People should take to the streets if this stealth tax goes ahead. It is grossly unfair on those with lesser financial means. Just to be clear I mean buses should be carrying decent loads not every seat full! The more passengers the more revenue. |
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Post by WH241 on Jan 19, 2022 8:42:23 GMT
With the £2 a day charge I would have to think about giving up the car.
My insurance is £650 a year with 18 years no claim. My permit this year is going to be about £130 and then I am expected to pay £60 or so a month just to move my car that’s all before paying £1.50 a litre for fuel.
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Jan 19, 2022 17:49:16 GMT
I know this is controversial, but I agree. We have an extensive bus network in London, people should be able to wait fifteen minutes for a bus. It won't impact the poor the most, it'll be the selfish, rich twits that think that the bus is below them. Those that can't afford a car already use the bus. London Buses are a public service that we need to be grateful for, not look down upon. 100% it is worth charging this, I will strongly support this consultation, it kills three birds with one stone. One we bring in money, two we bring down car use, meeting environmental goals and thirdly we support public transport. By the way, sorry if my post sounded like it was attacking you, I'm just frustrated with this. All I say, bring it on! Absolutely disagree with you. You say that people should be able to wait fifteen minutes for a bus however fifteen minutes is too long for some people hence the use of a car. I'm not a diva but to be honest I find that too long.
I regularly throw the 143 in as a route that struggles with capacity problems but from what I endure whenever I use it the service seems to be unreliable in the peaks. For example today about 4pm I was waiting for the 143 outside East Finchley Station to run and do some errands near Hendon & on the bus times reader up top it stated the next 143 was in 25 minutes. How on earth would you expect people to wait for that. There was probably a bus not tracking but I imagine non-enthusiasts do not take that into the equation and instead if after a constant basis they notice this they will vote with their feet which other members have stated. I cannot believe for a service that has so many SDO journeys running alongside it (probably the most out of any regular bus route in London with 5 including the 643 running alongside) how capacity is still not matched at certain parts of the route, there's a journey that starts at Ossulton Way towards Brent Cross that is absolutely useless at mopping up school loadings because buses before mop them all yet you have punters boarding along Highgate Hill/outside East Finchley that can't even get on because of the lack of capacity. The constant waiting times at stops, the please move down inside the bus announcements, drama surrounding buggies, schoolchildren shouting, long queues at certain bus stops etc, how on earth do you get people to want to use that absolute s**hole of a service. Capacity problems were never addressed at weekends when buses were leaving Brent X packed, what exactly is attractive about waiting for a service such as that? How about address issues such as bus priority, overcrowding before punishing motorists for owning a car.
I'll add a final point on in saying that I think it's very nasty the way car users on here are demonised. A large portion of bus enthusiasts over the age of 17 I do imagine drive but are very happy to use public transport where possible. I'd say I came from a middle class background however as a youngster I was very much willing to use the bus network where possible & am very happy to still do so now however reality kicks in unfortunately as an adult and as a result I don't have all the time to wait for a bus so in lots of cases if the public transport just isn't there the car is I'm afraid the only option. I find that a demonising statement especially when across rich parts of London services are still very well used such as the 37, 65, 93, W7 and there are plenty more I could list. The 81 can regularly be packed as well and that serves quaint Berkshire areas.
1. Make the 143 8bph maybe? 2. Myself I can't drive so do get taxis, making me evil, but it does cut my journey from 50mins to 10mins. It's not so much the wait time, but the circuitous journey and the fact buses can't use Richmond Park. However on the weekend, I use buses and Overground as it's just ten times easier. |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Jan 19, 2022 17:53:22 GMT
I know this is controversial, but I agree. We have an extensive bus network in London, people should be able to wait fifteen minutes for a bus. It won't impact the poor the most, it'll be the selfish, rich twits that think that the bus is below them. Those that can't afford a car already use the bus. London Buses are a public service that we need to be grateful for, not look down upon. 100% it is worth charging this, I will strongly support this consultation, it kills three birds with one stone. One we bring in money, two we bring down car use, meeting environmental goals and thirdly we support public transport. By the way, sorry if my post sounded like it was attacking you, I'm just frustrated with this. All I say, bring it on! Can I be honest with you when you speak about the environmental side of things. This is not about saving the environment it's about adding more tax to people driving. As soon as all the cars on the road are either hydrogen or electric what else will they come up with? This is where people really need to sit down and think about it because it's only when more things are implemented thats when people realise how far these people have gone. Truly, I do see that but it's not so much about the environment. Another thing, it brings down road accidents as taxi and bus drivers are trained by a company to drive to certain standards, but this isn't the case for personal drivers. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 19, 2022 17:59:46 GMT
Can I be honest with you when you speak about the environmental side of things. This is not about saving the environment it's about adding more tax to people driving. As soon as all the cars on the road are either hydrogen or electric what else will they come up with? This is where people really need to sit down and think about it because it's only when more things are implemented thats when people realise how far these people have gone. Truly, I do see that but it's not so much about the environment. Another thing, it brings down road accidents as taxi and bus drivers are trained by a company to drive to certain standards, but this isn't the case for personal drivers. Thats a very small minority and car drivers have to pass a driving test to get their license. Taxing every car for it is just silly. |
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Post by ronnie on Jan 19, 2022 22:26:27 GMT
Can I be honest with you when you speak about the environmental side of things. This is not about saving the environment it's about adding more tax to people driving. As soon as all the cars on the road are either hydrogen or electric what else will they come up with? This is where people really need to sit down and think about it because it's only when more things are implemented thats when people realise how far these people have gone. Truly, I do see that but it's not so much about the environment. Another thing, it brings down road accidents as taxi and bus drivers are trained by a company to drive to certain standards, but this isn't the case for personal drivers. Are you saying bus / taxi drivers never have accidents? The first black cab ride I took - the guy didn’t know where Westbourne studios was (knowledge?), I had to show it to him on the map. Hit the pavement once while driving, went through a red light, actually touched “kissed” a pedestrian trying to cross the road. I was literally praying through the journey Don’t forget the bridge strikes. Oh yes that was caused by an untrained car driver PS - I love buses and use them fairly extensively (did 200+ end to ends in 2019!) but everything has a place. The average car owner isn’t bill gates to keep funding sadiq’s ill thought out plans |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 20, 2022 0:49:53 GMT
Truly, I do see that but it's not so much about the environment. Another thing, it brings down road accidents as taxi and bus drivers are trained by a company to drive to certain standards, but this isn't the case for personal drivers. Are you saying bus / taxi drivers never have accidents? The first black cab ride I took - the guy didn’t know where Westbourne studios was (knowledge?), I had to show it to him on the map. Hit the pavement once while driving, went through a red light, actually touched “kissed” a pedestrian trying to cross the road. I was literally praying through the journey Don’t forget the bridge strikes. Oh yes that was caused by an untrained car driver PS - I love buses and use them fairly extensively (did 200+ end to ends in 2019!) but everything has a place. The average car owner isn’t bill gates to keep funding sadiq’s ill thought out plans Cars do have a place as there will be certain group of people where a car is essential for work purposes and/or long distance journeys among other things but there are many who could quite easily switch from a car to another means without any issue at all. I don't agree with an emissions tax but road pricing - sorry to say I do think it should be brought in and not wait until near 2030 either. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 20, 2022 17:49:59 GMT
Even as someone who likes to use public transport I can see lots of negatives in this. I do also wonder whether with the introduction of a £2 charge whenever driving and skyrocketing council taxes whether some people might start moving out of London especially when you consider how expensive it is to live in London anyway.
Only my personal experience but a friend of mine in their 30s moved back to Cork where they were from initially because of expensive rents in London (they lived in a 1 bedroom flat with their partner and they required a music studio for their job) and whilst they considered a 2 bedroom flat for more space, the cost was too expensive and as a result they moved back to Cork to be closer with friends & family and ultimately have more space.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jan 20, 2022 17:58:47 GMT
Are you saying bus / taxi drivers never have accidents? The first black cab ride I took - the guy didn’t know where Westbourne studios was (knowledge?), I had to show it to him on the map. Hit the pavement once while driving, went through a red light, actually touched “kissed” a pedestrian trying to cross the road. I was literally praying through the journey Don’t forget the bridge strikes. Oh yes that was caused by an untrained car driver PS - I love buses and use them fairly extensively (did 200+ end to ends in 2019!) but everything has a place. The average car owner isn’t bill gates to keep funding sadiq’s ill thought out plans Cars do have a place as there will be certain group of people where a car is essential for work purposes and/or long distance journeys among other things but there are many who could quite easily switch from a car to another means without any issue at all. I don't agree with an emissions tax but road pricing - sorry to say I do think it should be brought in and not wait until near 2030 either. Obviously this probably wasn't as major as the Congestion Charge invention however to me I would support these types of ideas providing transport is actually being invested in. The Congestion Charge saw many routes heading into the centre of town having improvements made to them in regards to frequency increases, extensions, new services, more capacity on busy sections of routes (63/363, 36/436, 94/148, 74/430). What these LTNs/Road Charging/ULEZ expansion and increase in cost seem to have in mind is for people to stop using cars and look into other ways of getting around however not much is being invested into the network in regards to reducing local journeys made by car. I understand the idea is for people to move to active travel of which I have no issue with such as cycles and walking (of which I enjoy both) however I do still think public transport needs to be invested in in order to cater for those journeys that are slightly too long to be done by cycling or walking.
I do like the idea of some local links that have been taken into consideration such as a 225 extension to Bellingham which IIRC went somewhere although I don't know if it reached TFL. These sorts of ideas tend to be ones worth looking into.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 21, 2022 10:33:04 GMT
Our hapless mayor now has ideas to charge people £2 a day for driving in Greater London and TfL are to consult on this ridiculous idea. Conveniently disguised as helping the government meet its environmental goals (as if Khan is ever concerned with helping the government), this is nothing more than a tax that will disproportionately impact the poorest, as well as businesses on the outer boroughs of Greater London. This is on top of the eye watering council tax increases we are facing. High rise poor quality claustrophobic housing owned by rich Asian investors, road works everywhere and road infrastructure being deployed all over the place creating traffic jams and wasting money. Can’t wait to see the back of this mayor. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60030127.ampGreed can end up costing them more than they bargained. The same way how the ULEZ extension has been a flop and not justify the revenue they were expecting. If the mayour carries on with is current practice, I can see more people leaving London for nearby outer towns in places such as Hertfordshire, Essex, Sussex. Then not bothering to enter the GLA period. We could then end up seeing a new type of green belt expansion, but with people doing the exodus instead. It has nothing to do with climate change and is more a means of making TfL sustainable. |
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