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Post by rif153 on Jul 6, 2023 10:46:01 GMT
Its very easy to look at these long corridors where night routes run and suggest having express routes along them. However, long express routes from the centre to zone 6 would be a nightmare to operate to the point where they may not even have much of a time advantage over the stopping bus. This is before mentioning that not enough people would travel long distances on such routes to make them viable, because of how long it would take. You could go back home to Romford on the Elizabeth line, relax with a cuppa, your feet up and the tele on before the X15 has even passed Barking. The X68 is unique as the only commuter route from zone one and is successful because it serves a corridor with poor rail connections and the long non stop section helps make it genuinely faster, if it was limited stop like the 607 it would be used by people living in Camberwell for short hops and very marginal time savings. The new superloop routes are more akin to the 607, using major stops only so they'll have a mix of short hops and some longer distance travel too. I'll be curious to see what the data is on people changing between different parts of the loop. I've found being able to switch from the X140 to 607 at Hayes Grapes really handy but I can't imagine that many others do it. I'm not against expanding express routes at all. Proposed routes just need to decide if they're for commuters from Central London (in which case there's no point running them beyond zone three) or for journeys along suburban corridors. Looking at the X149 idea, Liverpool Street-Waltham Cross would be ridiculously long. But maybe a limited stop route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross could work provided it focuses on catering for longer distance traffic and actually provides attractive fast journey times. I don't think the Tottenham to Waltham Cross corridor is the best one to explore, assuming you're routing it via the 279. I'm not local but I'd doubt it would be faster than the 279. Most corridors aren't great for express routes tbh. I could perhaps see potential for an X13 running from High Barnet to Victoria (or Oxford Circus, returning the link from Swiss Cottage to Oxford Circus) quite possibly in similar fashion to the X68, running non stop from Baker Street to North Finchley, then calling at all stops to High Barnet That was just a (poorly explained) example of how those proposed express routes could be adapted. My point was a an express route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross should be aimed at longer distance travellers. For instance it could begin at Tottenham Town Hall, then stop at Edmonton Green, Ponders End then all stops to Waltham Cross. The point is it would cater for the longer distance travel, offering shorter journey times and allow the 279 to focus on shorter hops. It would probably require some more reorganisation of routes on that corridor though. |
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Post by londonbuses on Jul 6, 2023 10:51:28 GMT
I don't think there will ever be an express radial route going northwards out of London, since north London is full of tube lines and TfL will not want an express bus route to be competing with the tube.
Routes like the X68 and the idea of an X53 along Old Kent Road only work as they do not parallel any rail or tube lines.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 6, 2023 13:18:29 GMT
I don't think there will ever be an express radial route going northwards out of London, since north London is full of tube lines and TfL will not want an express bus route to be competing with the tube. Routes like the X68 and the idea of an X53 along Old Kent Road only work as they do not parallel any rail or tube lines. I agree. In North London TFL can't really be accused of not running enough services when some towns have 2 tubes lines running in them. The X53 operated in a time when before the Jubilee, Overground and now Elizabeth Line the only really options in SE london was Southeastern trains. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 6, 2023 13:19:57 GMT
X18 and X149 would unfortunately not work 1. There's too much traffic on both the A404 and the A10 2. Those areas are well connected with the tube or the Overground. Wondering if an X66 could work? Would run from Romford to Leytonstone but could possibly run via the 145 between Wanstead and Leytonstone. Then I'd have it run via the 257 to Stratford and the N25 to Oxford Circus. Another alternative would be to run it non stop from Redbridge to Bow (via the A12), then down the N25 to Oxford Circus. An express route like the X66 would be anything but express! There is far too much congestion along route you propose especially in the Leytonstone area. It is all very well proposing express routes but you have to ask is there demand for such routes especially from Romford to central London which can be done in around 25 mins and even quicker on direct trains from Romford which is 6 mins to Stratford.
Romford has direct trains to Stratford and central London but the areas where the 66 serves do not have any nearby train stations, like around Marks Gate and Little Heath. Whether people from those areas would suddenly jump from catching a bus to Chadwell Heath/Goodmayes then going onto the Elizabeth line, to taking an express route to London is a different matter. Although I'd imagine journey times would not improve but it gives them another option to travel |
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 6, 2023 13:27:53 GMT
I don't think the Tottenham to Waltham Cross corridor is the best one to explore, assuming you're routing it via the 279. I'm not local but I'd doubt it would be faster than the 279. Most corridors aren't great for express routes tbh. I could perhaps see potential for an X13 running from High Barnet to Victoria (or Oxford Circus, returning the link from Swiss Cottage to Oxford Circus) quite possibly in similar fashion to the X68, running non stop from Baker Street to North Finchley, then calling at all stops to High Barnet That was just a (poorly explained) example of how those proposed express routes could be adapted. My point was a an express route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross should be aimed at longer distance travellers. For instance it could begin at Tottenham Town Hall, then stop at Edmonton Green, Ponders End then all stops to Waltham Cross. The point is it would cater for the longer distance travel, offering shorter journey times and allow the 279 to focus on shorter hops. It would probably require some more reorganisation of routes on that corridor though. You might as well say bye bye to the 349 then! All stops between Ponders End and Waltham Cross isn't exactly express either. I'd probably start it at Manor House, then run express via the 279 to Waltham Cross, perhaps an extension to Cheshunt to connect with the Overground. The current 279 would be diverted to Tottenham Hale to bring further links from North Tottenham to Tottenham Hale On the subject of that, I do wonder whether it would be a good idea to have a matchday only bus route that would operate from White Hart Lane to Tottenham Hale, it would operate in a similar fashion to the shuttles at Twickenham. Could quite possibly be extended to Walthamstow I think that that is something missing in the North Tottenham bus network |
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Post by route53 on Jul 6, 2023 16:58:08 GMT
I don't think there will ever be an express radial route going northwards out of London, since north London is full of tube lines and TfL will not want an express bus route to be competing with the tube. Routes like the X68 and the idea of an X53 along Old Kent Road only work as they do not parallel any rail or tube lines. I agree. In North London TFL can't really be accused of not running enough services when some towns have 2 tubes lines running in them. The X53 operated in a time when before the Jubilee, Overground and now Elizabeth Line the only really options in SE london was Southeastern trains. The Jubilee line is still a far way off from the 53 route, and the EL only meets the 53 at Woolwich, the rest of the route serves a unique corridor away from South eastern. |
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Post by busboy17 on Jul 6, 2023 18:18:51 GMT
I would very much prefer if the Superloop and the express network were split; incorporating the likes of 607 and X68 in the network is daft and really defeats the purpose of the SuperLOOP. Instead, i reckon there should be a focus on express routes running particularly on some of the busiest corridors in the city. Routes such as: X15 - Trafalgar Square - Romford Market X36 - Oxford Circus - Chislehurst (N136) X29 - Trafalgar Square - Enfield X109 - Oxford Circus - Croydon Town Centre (N109) X53 - Whitehall - Thamesmead (via Lewisham) X149 - Liverpool Street - Waltham Cross X18 - Euston - Harrow Weald X89 - Trafalgar Square - Bexleyheath Could be viable. There are issues with the length of these routes, but I struggle to see the running times for them exceeding 90 minutes. X36 would it not be better serving Paddington linking with EL? |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 6, 2023 20:51:22 GMT
I agree. In North London TFL can't really be accused of not running enough services when some towns have 2 tubes lines running in them. The X53 operated in a time when before the Jubilee, Overground and now Elizabeth Line the only really options in SE london was Southeastern trains. The Jubilee line is still a far way off from the 53 route, and the EL only meets the 53 at Woolwich, the rest of the route serves a unique corridor away from South eastern. But I think the 53 does cope on that section better now then in 90s. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2023 22:24:26 GMT
I don't think the Tottenham to Waltham Cross corridor is the best one to explore, assuming you're routing it via the 279. I'm not local but I'd doubt it would be faster than the 279. Most corridors aren't great for express routes tbh. I could perhaps see potential for an X13 running from High Barnet to Victoria (or Oxford Circus, returning the link from Swiss Cottage to Oxford Circus) quite possibly in similar fashion to the X68, running non stop from Baker Street to North Finchley, then calling at all stops to High Barnet That was just a (poorly explained) example of how those proposed express routes could be adapted. My point was a an express route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross should be aimed at longer distance travellers. For instance it could begin at Tottenham Town Hall, then stop at Edmonton Green, Ponders End then all stops to Waltham Cross. The point is it would cater for the longer distance travel, offering shorter journey times and allow the 279 to focus on shorter hops. It would probably require some more reorganisation of routes on that corridor though. Still cannot see it working. The London overground is the direct competitor to this. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2023 22:27:07 GMT
That was just a (poorly explained) example of how those proposed express routes could be adapted. My point was a an express route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross should be aimed at longer distance travellers. For instance it could begin at Tottenham Town Hall, then stop at Edmonton Green, Ponders End then all stops to Waltham Cross. The point is it would cater for the longer distance travel, offering shorter journey times and allow the 279 to focus on shorter hops. It would probably require some more reorganisation of routes on that corridor though. You might as well say bye bye to the 349 then! All stops between Ponders End and Waltham Cross isn't exactly express either. I'd probably start it at Manor House, then run express via the 279 to Waltham Cross, perhaps an extension to Cheshunt to connect with the Overground. The current 279 would be diverted to Tottenham Hale to bring further links from North Tottenham to Tottenham Hale On the subject of that, I do wonder whether it would be a good idea to have a matchday only bus route that would operate from White Hart Lane to Tottenham Hale, it would operate in a similar fashion to the shuttles at Twickenham. Could quite possibly be extended to Walthamstow I think that that is something missing in the North Tottenham bus network There already is a Tottenham Hotspur shuttle between White Hart Lane and Wood Green. Principally EnsignBus who also use Arriva as a subcontractor. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 6, 2023 22:37:11 GMT
That was just a (poorly explained) example of how those proposed express routes could be adapted. My point was a an express route from Tottenham to Waltham Cross should be aimed at longer distance travellers. For instance it could begin at Tottenham Town Hall, then stop at Edmonton Green, Ponders End then all stops to Waltham Cross. The point is it would cater for the longer distance travel, offering shorter journey times and allow the 279 to focus on shorter hops. It would probably require some more reorganisation of routes on that corridor though. Still cannot see it working. The London overground is the direct competitor to this. Maybe I am being cynical but long distance journeys should be primarily directed towards rail where possible, with shorter journeys catered to by buses, bicycles and for especially short ones, walking. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 6, 2023 22:51:56 GMT
I would very much prefer if the Superloop and the express network were split; incorporating the likes of 607 and X68 in the network is daft and really defeats the purpose of the SuperLOOP. Instead, i reckon there should be a focus on express routes running particularly on some of the busiest corridors in the city. Routes such as: X15 - Trafalgar Square - Romford Market X36 - Oxford Circus - Chislehurst (N136) X29 - Trafalgar Square - Enfield X109 - Oxford Circus - Croydon Town Centre (N109) X53 - Whitehall - Thamesmead (via Lewisham) X149 - Liverpool Street - Waltham Cross X18 - Euston - Harrow Weald X89 - Trafalgar Square - Bexleyheath Could be viable. There are issues with the length of these routes, but I struggle to see the running times for them exceeding 90 minutes. X18 and X149 would unfortunately not work 1. There's too much traffic on both the A404 and the A10 2. Those areas are well connected with the tube or the Overground. Wondering if an X66 could work? Would run from Romford to Leytonstone but could possibly run via the 145 between Wanstead and Leytonstone. Then I'd have it run via the 257 to Stratford and the N25 to Oxford Circus. Another alternative would be to run it non stop from Redbridge to Bow (via the A12), then down the N25 to Oxford Circus. I doubt the X66 would work. Would be hard for it to gain much ground over a standard 66 on the A12. Even driving a car on the A12 you would be surprised at times how much a 66 would catch back up if you get held at lights etc. The 66 is used by people to get the Central Line at Newbury Park or Elizabeth line from Romford. |
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Post by route53 on Jul 7, 2023 10:08:11 GMT
The Jubilee line is still a far way off from the 53 route, and the EL only meets the 53 at Woolwich, the rest of the route serves a unique corridor away from South eastern. But I think the 53 does cope on that section better now then in 90s. It’s still a busy route with pinch points, it doesn’t have a direct rail competitor so I think an X53 would still work today. And with South Eastern majorly downgrading their timetable rendering it useless and pointless the 53 has seen an increase of usage recently. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 7, 2023 10:32:35 GMT
But I think the 53 does cope on that section better now then in 90s. It’s still a busy route with pinch points, it doesn’t have a direct rail competitor so I think an X53 would still work today. And with South Eastern majorly downgrading their timetable rendering it useless and pointless the 53 has seen an increase of usage recently. As we have seen thou the X version would probably pinch resources from the 53. New X53 but the 53 will drop to every 9 mins let's say. I remember when the 53 was up to every 2-4 mins between Woolwich and TSQ in the peaks. Did it get an increase in 1999 when the X53 was withdrawn? |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jul 7, 2023 12:34:51 GMT
An express route like the X66 would be anything but express! There is far too much congestion along route you propose especially in the Leytonstone area. It is all very well proposing express routes but you have to ask is there demand for such routes especially from Romford to central London which can be done in around 25 mins and even quicker on direct trains from Romford which is 6 mins to Stratford.
Romford has direct trains to Stratford and central London but the areas where the 66 serves do not have any nearby train stations, like around Marks Gate and Little Heath. Whether people from those areas would suddenly jump from catching a bus to Chadwell Heath/Goodmayes then going onto the Elizabeth line, to taking an express route to London is a different matter. Although I'd imagine journey times would not improve but it gives them another option to travel You seem to be forgetting about Newbury Park as another option that people go to as well. |
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