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Post by WH241 on Jul 15, 2022 7:52:08 GMT
I am sorry this reply will probably cause offence. I really don’t buy the feel unsafe argument when these kids are all walking around with the latest smart phones and flashing them around. I bet most have online banking set up on said phone and could pay a adult fare if needed but won’t because they feel to entitled to free travel.
I am sure there are examples of real vulnerable children and hope they are helped in those situations.
I honestly wonder how some people cope when they enter the world of work after school and college.
Again sorry for any offence this causes.
O and yes I watched the report on BBC London.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 15, 2022 10:06:14 GMT
Out of interest, has anyone who replied watched the video? I saw it on the news earlier last night and two important things to mention regardless of anyone's view point is: Kids were asking to be let on whilst travelling to & from school in the event of having a lost/stolen from them/forgotten card rather than outside the school hours period The main reason for asking for this discretion is due to the children feeling unsafe as a result of the much increased crime among kids in this day and age I'm firmly on the fence on this as I can see both sides here but thought it was important to put those points across for context purpose as someone will comment without watching Again I ask, how does that differ from what we experienced as kids. If they have lost/had card stolen from school, they should get a letter from the school. If the card is lost stolen before they leave home, the parents should supply them with alternative methods of travel. Why would a parent, send their kid to school with no method to pay for a bus fare, if the really needed to use the bus to get there and home, if they considered their kids vulnerable? You just would not do it! What exactly makes all the kids vulnerable that did not happen 30-50 years ago. We had child murderers and kidnappers in our day. I know kids that had to walk home from Central Croydon (from school) as they had lost their passes. Kids these days are spoilt and pampered, expect everything to be given to them on a plate. Kids constantly say they want to be treated like adults, then behave like this. Finally, how often does a card get lost or stolen? If kids are really considered vulnerable, they school can phone their parents to come and pick them up. The term vulnerable these days, not just used by school kids, is often used as a term of self entitlement rather than any genuine danger these days. Although you need to realise safeguarding and child safety is a far bigger priority now than whenever you were a kid. Do you think that we should start public hangings again? It was fine then so by your logic would surely be fine now. Or maybe revoke a woman's right to vote, once again it was fine then so surely would be fine now? |
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Post by WH241 on Jul 15, 2022 10:18:04 GMT
Again I ask, how does that differ from what we experienced as kids. If they have lost/had card stolen from school, they should get a letter from the school. If the card is lost stolen before they leave home, the parents should supply them with alternative methods of travel. Why would a parent, send their kid to school with no method to pay for a bus fare, if the really needed to use the bus to get there and home, if they considered their kids vulnerable? You just would not do it! What exactly makes all the kids vulnerable that did not happen 30-50 years ago. We had child murderers and kidnappers in our day. I know kids that had to walk home from Central Croydon (from school) as they had lost their passes. Kids these days are spoilt and pampered, expect everything to be given to them on a plate. Kids constantly say they want to be treated like adults, then behave like this. Finally, how often does a card get lost or stolen? If kids are really considered vulnerable, they school can phone their parents to come and pick them up. The term vulnerable these days, not just used by school kids, is often used as a term of self entitlement rather than any genuine danger these days. Although you need to realise safeguarding and child safety is a far bigger priority now than whenever you were a kid. Do you think that we should start public hangings again? It was fine then so by your logic would surely be fine now. Or maybe revoke a woman's right to vote, once again it was fine then so surely would be fine now? That’s a bit of a dramatic reply. Genuine safeguarding concerns should of course be taking care of and I am sure no bus driver would leave behind anyone in need. I can’t answer for Silenced but what gets my back up is the entitlement of younger people who are given free travel yet can’t be bothered to ensure they have the card with them or get a replacement when lost. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 15, 2022 10:21:22 GMT
Again I ask, how does that differ from what we experienced as kids. If they have lost/had card stolen from school, they should get a letter from the school. If the card is lost stolen before they leave home, the parents should supply them with alternative methods of travel. Why would a parent, send their kid to school with no method to pay for a bus fare, if the really needed to use the bus to get there and home, if they considered their kids vulnerable? You just would not do it! What exactly makes all the kids vulnerable that did not happen 30-50 years ago. We had child murderers and kidnappers in our day. I know kids that had to walk home from Central Croydon (from school) as they had lost their passes. Kids these days are spoilt and pampered, expect everything to be given to them on a plate. Kids constantly say they want to be treated like adults, then behave like this. Finally, how often does a card get lost or stolen? If kids are really considered vulnerable, they school can phone their parents to come and pick them up. The term vulnerable these days, not just used by school kids, is often used as a term of self entitlement rather than any genuine danger these days. Although you need to realise safeguarding and child safety is a far bigger priority now than whenever you were a kid. Do you think that we should start public hangings again? It was fine then so by your logic would surely be fine now. Or maybe revoke a woman's right to vote, once again it was fine then so surely would be fine now? Trouble is many abuse the word vulnerable ... but by doing this you actually place those that are vulnerable more at risk, as the abuse of the word demeans its value. If you are happy for the word vulnerable to be normalised then you are placing those that actually are vulnerable at greater risk. Or you just introduce the latest buzz classification, until it in turn gets abused. Not sure how old you think I am! Your examples are ludicrous. All I am saying is people should start taking responsibility for their own actions, rather than expecting everyone else to mollycoddle to them. Stand on your own two feet! Not sure how much 'pocket money' is these days, but if parents deducted the cost to travel they had to pay when cards were lost, do you think the cards would be looked after better. Unfortunately the general standards of 2000 parenting in London is terrible ...so maybe we can't just blame the kids. |
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Post by enviroPB on Jul 15, 2022 10:39:30 GMT
Out of interest, has anyone who replied watched the video? I saw it on the news earlier last night and two important things to mention regardless of anyone's view point is: Kids were asking to be let on whilst travelling to & from school in the event of having a lost/stolen from them/forgotten card rather than outside the school hours period The main reason for asking for this discretion is due to the children feeling unsafe as a result of the much increased crime among kids in this day and age I'm firmly on the fence on this as I can see both sides here but thought it was important to put those points across for context purpose as someone will comment without watching Again I ask, how does that differ from what we experienced as kids. If they have lost/had card stolen from school, they should get a letter from the school. If the card is lost stolen before they leave home, the parents should supply them with alternative methods of travel. Why would a parent, send their kid to school with no method to pay for a bus fare, if the really needed to use the bus to get there and home, if they considered their kids vulnerable? You just would not do it! What exactly makes all the kids vulnerable that did not happen 30-50 years ago. We had child murderers and kidnappers in our day. I know kids that had to walk home from Central Croydon (from school) as they had lost their passes. Kids these days are spoilt and pampered, expect everything to be given to them on a plate. Kids constantly say they want to be treated like adults, then behave like this. Finally, how often does a card get lost or stolen? If kids are really considered vulnerable, they school can phone their parents to come and pick them up. The term vulnerable these days, not just used by school kids, is often used as a term of self entitlement rather than any genuine danger these days. Kids don't choose to be vulnerable outside office hours at a time that suits you or the parents. Your tone is pretty harsh & critical that kids deliberately choose to forget their Oysters, they don't. If you can get robbed for having a mobile phone, why are Zip cards any different? It's about the humiliation of the act, not the prize. A decade ago when I went to school, pupils' shoes were being stolen from them. Are you telling me that a kid is vulnerable then, however having shoes but no means to go home makes them fine? No kid wants to be singled out. To not have an Oyster is to not be part of the norm. Most drivers do acknowledge that, but I feel the proportion of 'chancers' in school uniforms is grossly overstated by you. I don't know from your personal experience but because my secondary had a dedicated school route, senior staff had a good relationship with the bus companies and vice versa. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 15, 2022 10:53:03 GMT
Although you need to realise safeguarding and child safety is a far bigger priority now than whenever you were a kid. Do you think that we should start public hangings again? It was fine then so by your logic would surely be fine now. Or maybe revoke a woman's right to vote, once again it was fine then so surely would be fine now? Trouble is many abuse the word vulnerable ... but doing this you actually place those that are vulnerable more at risk, as the abuse of the word demeans its value. If you are happy for the word vulnerable to be normalised then you are placing those that actually vulnerable at greater risk. Or you just introduce the lasted buzz classification, until it in turn gets abused. Not sure how old you think I am! Your examples are ludicrous. All I am saying is people should start taking responsibility for their own actions, rather than expecting everyone else to mollycoddle to them. Stand on your own two feet! Not sure how much 'pocket money' is these days, but if parents deducted the cost to travel they had to pay when cards were lost, do you think the cards would be looked after better. Unfortunately the general standards of 2000 parenting in London is terrible ...so maybe we can't just blame the kids. You keep comparing things to the past, my examples are also from the past so I don't see any difference. If you keep saying things managed in the past, I'm simply pointing out that they didn't. Theyre a child, a 11 or 12 year old is still a child and will lose things. A 16 or 17 year old you could hold them responsible but a 11 or 12 year old you can't. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 15, 2022 11:00:05 GMT
Again I ask, how does that differ from what we experienced as kids. If they have lost/had card stolen from school, they should get a letter from the school. If the card is lost stolen before they leave home, the parents should supply them with alternative methods of travel. Why would a parent, send their kid to school with no method to pay for a bus fare, if the really needed to use the bus to get there and home, if they considered their kids vulnerable? You just would not do it! What exactly makes all the kids vulnerable that did not happen 30-50 years ago. We had child murderers and kidnappers in our day. I know kids that had to walk home from Central Croydon (from school) as they had lost their passes. Kids these days are spoilt and pampered, expect everything to be given to them on a plate. Kids constantly say they want to be treated like adults, then behave like this. Finally, how often does a card get lost or stolen? If kids are really considered vulnerable, they school can phone their parents to come and pick them up. The term vulnerable these days, not just used by school kids, is often used as a term of self entitlement rather than any genuine danger these days. Kids don't choose to be vulnerable outside office hours at a time that suits you or the parents. Your tone is pretty harsh & critical that kids deliberately choose to forget their Oysters, they don't. If you can get robbed for having a mobile phone, why are Zip cards any different? It's about the humiliation of the act, not the prize. A decade ago when I went to school, pupils' shoes were being stolen from them. Are you telling me that a kid is vulnerable then, however having shoes but no means to go home makes them fine? No kid wants to be singled out. To not have an Oyster is to not be part of the norm. Most drivers do acknowledge that, but I feel the proportion of 'chancers' in school uniforms is grossly overstated by you. I don't know from your personal experience but because my secondary had a dedicated school route, senior staff had a good relationship with the bus companies and vice versa. If your kid is at primary school and is ill ... whether inside or outside of office hours, you have to collect them ... it is your parental duty ... so you are saying you discharge your parental duty at what age? So once they are at senior school? Your d*mning of British social standards. Parental responsibility lasts until they are an adult. That is what you sign up to when you choose to have children. If you were told your child was in a situation you considered vulnerable, would you not take matters into your own hands to ensure they were taken out of it? Yes, it makes you not part of them norm. It should encourage you to look after it or get it replaced as quickly as possible. TfL state that lost/stolen/damaged cards will be replaced in 7 days, so only be a week out of the 'norm'. I accept you can get robbed. That is when schools should be helping the students. In these situations surely it is for the parents/schools/police to manage. People talk about safeguarding, but these parties seem to be shirking their responsibilities. It should not be down to bus drivers to determine who is vulnerable and who is not. Maybe schools should have a supply of those tear off cardnets they issue at job centres so that pupils in that situation can get home. If you forget your ZIP how did you get to school to not be able to use it for the return journey. If you get to bus stop and you don't have your ZIP, you go home and get it. It is an easily solvable problem forgetting your card. Appreciate having it stolen is a different kettle of fish, but should the solution just be walking onto a bus saying no card. Surely no, its is open to abuse, and a system open to abuse is these days abused. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 15, 2022 11:03:18 GMT
Trouble is many abuse the word vulnerable ... but doing this you actually place those that are vulnerable more at risk, as the abuse of the word demeans its value. If you are happy for the word vulnerable to be normalised then you are placing those that actually vulnerable at greater risk. Or you just introduce the lasted buzz classification, until it in turn gets abused. Not sure how old you think I am! Your examples are ludicrous. All I am saying is people should start taking responsibility for their own actions, rather than expecting everyone else to mollycoddle to them. Stand on your own two feet! Not sure how much 'pocket money' is these days, but if parents deducted the cost to travel they had to pay when cards were lost, do you think the cards would be looked after better. Unfortunately the general standards of 2000 parenting in London is terrible ...so maybe we can't just blame the kids. You keep comparing things to the past, my examples are also from the past so I don't see any difference. If you keep saying things managed in the past, I'm simply pointing out that they didn't. Theyre a child, a 11 or 12 year old is still a child and will lose things. A 16 or 17 year old you could hold them responsible but a 11 or 12 year old you can't. 11-12 is for the parents to manage ... in fact it is the parents responsibility until such time as they are responsible. |
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Post by greenboy on Jul 15, 2022 11:08:15 GMT
Although you need to realise safeguarding and child safety is a far bigger priority now than whenever you were a kid. Do you think that we should start public hangings again? It was fine then so by your logic would surely be fine now. Or maybe revoke a woman's right to vote, once again it was fine then so surely would be fine now? Trouble is many abuse the word vulnerable ... but doing this you actually place those that are vulnerable more at risk, as the abuse of the word demeans its value. If you are happy for the word vulnerable to be normalised then you are placing those that actually vulnerable at greater risk. Or you just introduce the lasted buzz classification, until it in turn gets abused. Not sure how old you think I am! Your examples are ludicrous. All I am saying is people should start taking responsibility for their own actions, rather than expecting everyone else to mollycoddle to them. Stand on your own two feet! Not sure how much 'pocket money' is these days, but if parents deducted the cost to travel they had to pay when cards were lost, do you think the cards would be looked after better. Unfortunately the general standards of 2000 parenting in London is terrible ...so maybe we can't just blame the kids. Your opening paragraph nails it. I couldn't have put it any better and of course it's bus drivers who are caught between a rock and a hard place knowing that they are d*mned whatever they do. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Jul 15, 2022 14:40:13 GMT
I saw this on the BBC website a few weeks ago before it was on TV and when I saw it then and again now, I am so baffled as to why this is even news and this is clearly the media click bait (or wait bait). I dont think it is worth even having an opinion on this. It is an issue that this is an issue.
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Post by abellion on Jul 15, 2022 17:25:18 GMT
In my experience school kids just walk onto the bus, it's usually too crowded for drivers to do anything.
Some of the replies to this thread are quite harsh - there is no harm in forgetting your zip card. I lost a few bus passes, my friends have too, it isn't an impossible to misplace one, especially since we are talking about teenagers here. Calling kids spoiled and expecting them to have solutions and alternatives because of your own experiences in the past makes no sense to me.
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Post by Paul on Jul 16, 2022 11:47:56 GMT
I agree with you But having said that there are some school children that do take the pi** out of the zip card and say that they have no money to pay when the they have a box full of Chicken and chips etc. Bus travel is free for under 16s- I don't see the relevance here. I don’t know who initially marketed it as ‘free travel’ but I’d happily punch them in the face. It’s not ‘free travel’ but a free pass and there’s a significant difference. Those who get free travel don’t need to produce a pass ie under 11s and on duty police officers. Everyone else needs to have some form of pass. For a significant number of people, this pass is a freely obtained one such as the Zip Oyster card. The information supplied with the card states clearly that ‘free travel’ is granted only on the production of the pass. If the Zip Oyster isn’t available then the holder must pay because everyone over 11 has to pay the bus fare Obviously there will be genuine cases where a Zip Oyster is lost or stolen but there are FAR more children now simply not bothering with a pass. Since it’s technically fare evasion, I report it as such and get on with driving the bus for the larger number of people who have bothered to produce a valid pass Something needs to be done about children not using their Oyster card because it’s producing a false picture of how many people are using the buses - children not tapping in are not being included in ridership figures |
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Post by rif153 on Jul 16, 2022 16:45:21 GMT
I don't want to be too harsh on young people, I was one not so long ago (where has the time gone?). I want to avoid making stereotypes or generalising all young people these days because I know when I was a teenager I hated being stereotyped because of the actions of some people my age.
However, I will say this. I used to use the E8 regularly but I would avoid the route during school kickout times as it could be absolutely hellish. The behaviour of some school kids on the bus was absolutely outrageous; fighting, shouting, relentlessly ringing bells it could be appalling. Some of the people on there seemed to have no respect or consideration for others with how they conducted themselves on the bus, showing a completely lack of self-awareness. There seems to have been a decline in respect for authority amongst young people these days, when they've forgotten their zip card I've seen some of them tell the driver they've forgotten their zip card and not listen to the driver's reply or not respect what they driver says - ruder still I've seem some walk straight past the driver and refuse to come back when the driver calls them. One time I also saw one school kid pass another one his zip card to use again and when the driver tried to reprimand him he had no interest in hearing what the driver had to say, being quite rude back. I've also noticed a rise in teenagers who think its ok to sit at the back and vape. All this nonsense about softer discipline in schools isn't helping - I know a few people who teach and they tell me some of their students talk over them even when they're trying to explain things and the lack of firm sanctions available to them can leave them feeling powerless. Of course there is a balance to be struck, but from what I hear - which admittedly isn't both sides of the argument - some teachers find students have no respect for them or their authority.
I don't think drivers should leave young people behind at the bus stop if they've forgotten their zip card if its a one off, its hardly a mortal sin and people need to get home. However, I think they should realise and accept that the behaviour of some of their mates/peers might be part of the reason why the driver doesn't want to let them on.
Finally I want to reiterate that I don't want to stereotype all young people. I've had many pleasant journeys on the E8 during school kickout times and it would be totally unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Many of them are perfectly civil and well-behaved on the bus. However, I think the behaviour of a small minority of young people is a reason why drivers might not be so sympathetic to them when they've lost their zip card - though of course the ones who misbehave on the bus aren't necessarily the same ones who forget their zip cards. I think there needs to be better communication between drivers, TFL and schools so if some children are misbehaving they can suffer the consequences. Free travel is a right but with it comes the responsibility to behave on the bus, I'm pretty sure zip cards are issued with conditions of carriage attached.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 16, 2022 16:56:40 GMT
I don't want to be too harsh on young people, I was one not so long ago (where has the time gone?). I want to avoid making stereotypes or generalising all young people these days because I know when I was a teenager I hated being stereotyped because of the actions of some people my age. However, I will say this. I used to use the E8 regularly but I would avoid the route during school kickout times as it could be absolutely hellish. The behaviour of some school kids on the bus was absolutely outrageous; fighting, shouting, relentlessly ringing bells it could be appalling. Some of the people on there seemed to have no respect or consideration for others with how they conducted themselves on the bus, showing a completely lack of self-awareness. There seems to have been a decline in respect for authority amongst young people these days, when they've forgotten their zip card I've seen some of them tell the driver they've forgotten their zip card and not listen to the driver's reply or not respect what they driver says - ruder still I've seem some walk straight past the driver and refuse to come back when the driver calls them. One time I also saw one school kid pass another one his zip card to use again and when the driver tried to reprimand him he had no interest in hearing what the driver had to say, being quite rude back. I've also noticed a rise in teenagers who think its ok to sit at the back and vape. All this nonsense about softer discipline in schools isn't helping - I know a few people who teach and they tell me some of their students talk over them even when they're trying to explain things and the lack of firm sanctions available to them can leave them feeling powerless. Of course there is a balance to be struck, but from what I hear - which admittedly isn't both sides of the argument - some teachers find students have no respect for them or their authority. I don't think drivers should leave young people behind at the bus stop if they've forgotten their zip card if its a one off, its hardly a mortal sin and people need to get home. However, I think they should realise and accept that the behaviour of some of their mates/peers might be part of the reason why the driver doesn't want to let them on. Finally I want to reiterate that I don't want to stereotype all young people. I've had many pleasant journeys on the E8 during school kickout times and it would be totally unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Many of them are perfectly civil and well-behaved on the bus. However, I think the behaviour of a small minority of young people is a reason why drivers might not be so sympathetic to them when they've lost their zip card - though of course the ones who misbehave on the bus aren't necessarily the same ones who forget their zip cards. I think there needs to be better communication between drivers, TFL and schools so if some children are misbehaving they can suffer the consequences. Free travel is a right but with it comes the responsibility to behave on the bus, I'm pretty sure zip cards are issued with conditions of carriage attached. Agree completely and many people avoid bus travel at school times for the same reason, often impossible to get on the bus anyway. Now the obvious question is why are TfL and/or the police not going round schools with CCTV footage and identifying the trouble makers and removing their free travel entitlement? It's not fair on the well behaved children, bus drivers or anyone else. |
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Post by abellion on Jul 16, 2022 17:03:03 GMT
I don't want to be too harsh on young people, I was one not so long ago (where has the time gone?). I want to avoid making stereotypes or generalising all young people these days because I know when I was a teenager I hated being stereotyped because of the actions of some people my age. However, I will say this. I used to use the E8 regularly but I would avoid the route during school kickout times as it could be absolutely hellish. The behaviour of some school kids on the bus was absolutely outrageous; fighting, shouting, relentlessly ringing bells it could be appalling. Some of the people on there seemed to have no respect or consideration for others with how they conducted themselves on the bus, showing a completely lack of self-awareness. There seems to have been a decline in respect for authority amongst young people these days, when they've forgotten their zip card I've seen some of them tell the driver they've forgotten their zip card and not listen to the driver's reply or not respect what they driver says - ruder still I've seem some walk straight past the driver and refuse to come back when the driver calls them. One time I also saw one school kid pass another one his zip card to use again and when the driver tried to reprimand him he had no interest in hearing what the driver had to say, being quite rude back. I've also noticed a rise in teenagers who think its ok to sit at the back and vape. All this nonsense about softer discipline in schools isn't helping - I know a few people who teach and they tell me some of their students talk over them even when they're trying to explain things and the lack of firm sanctions available to them can leave them feeling powerless. Of course there is a balance to be struck, but from what I hear - which admittedly isn't both sides of the argument - some teachers find students have no respect for them or their authority. I don't think drivers should leave young people behind at the bus stop if they've forgotten their zip card if its a one off, its hardly a mortal sin and people need to get home. However, I think they should realise and accept that the behaviour of some of their mates/peers might be part of the reason why the driver doesn't want to let them on. Finally I want to reiterate that I don't want to stereotype all young people. I've had many pleasant journeys on the E8 during school kickout times and it would be totally unfair to tar them all with the same brush. Many of them are perfectly civil and well-behaved on the bus. However, I think the behaviour of a small minority of young people is a reason why drivers might not be so sympathetic to them when they've lost their zip card - though of course the ones who misbehave on the bus aren't necessarily the same ones who forget their zip cards. I think there needs to be better communication between drivers, TFL and schools so if some children are misbehaving they can suffer the consequences. Free travel is a right but with it comes the responsibility to behave on the bus, I'm pretty sure zip cards are issued with conditions of carriage attached. Agree completely and many people avoid bus travel at school times for the same reason, often impossible to get on the bus anyway. Now the obvious question is why are TfL and/or the police not going round schools with CCTV footage and identifying the trouble makers and removing their free travel entitlement? It's not fair on the well behaved children, bus drivers or anyone else. There are too many routes affected and schools and children causing chaos. People on this forum are from all over London and can name plenty of routes that are overcrowded with mishbehaving kids. I would offer up the 44, 270, 156, 152, 163, 164, 57 and 131, I could go on and that's just one person's experience in one small section of London. |
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