Route 302

[evergreenadam]

I would be interested to hear how well used the 302 is between Kingsbury and Mill Hill. What are the main journey purposes on this section, as Mill Hill doesn’t have a huge choice of shops. Would it be more useful if it ran to Edgware instead of Mill Hill or was rerouted to stop outside Morrisons and Asda on Edgware Road?

[COBO]

Maybe it’s to link the local people to the railway station.

[VWH1414]

Not sure how many times I’ve answered this on here, but no it does not need to go to Edgware…

I live on the said part of route in question, and it is well used in terms of it serves a road that’s already had the 303 ripped away from it and a large swathe of residential housing, between Burnt Oak and Mill Hill it doesn’t serve areas that have a route already, Orange Hill Road doesn’t have a route since the 305 was withdrawn and Deansbrook Road lost its link as a result of the reroute. Mill Hill also has the Thameslink Station and links to other areas further east via other bus routes.

So by no means is it useless, again I use it everyday and it’s often quite busy in the morning and afternoon peak. Going to Edgware doesn’t provide much use when at Burnt Oak Broadway you already have the 32/142/251/292 and Kingsbury Green has the 204 (and 79 a walk down the road).

This link has never previously been needed, so I’m not sure why it’s needed now. It can still be done by changing at Burnt Oak Broadway with an option of 4 routes (so generally very minimal waiting time)

Otherwise your robbing an entire neighbourhood of a bus route (keeping in mind the 303 already got taken away) for not much use, so I’m not sure why it’s constantly brought up, when so many routes in the area already reach Edgware. People need to remember it’s not all about terminating in main bus stations, residential areas and other smaller shopping areas such as Mill Hill also need serving, with 2 schools also along the section of the 302 in question.

[evergreenadam]

Dec 17, 2022 16:10:10 GMT VWH1414 said:

Not sure how many times I’ve answered this on here, but no it does not need to go to Edgware…

I live on the said part of route in question, and it is well used in terms of it serves a road that’s already had the 303 ripped away from it and a large swathe of residential housing, between Burnt Oak and Mill Hill it doesn’t serve areas that have a route already, Orange Hill Road doesn’t have a route since the 305 was withdrawn and Deansbrook Road lost its link as a result of the reroute. Mill Hill also has the Thameslink Station and links to other areas further east via other bus routes.

So by no means is it useless, again I use it everyday and it’s often quite busy in the morning and afternoon peak. Going to Edgware doesn’t provide much use when at Burnt Oak Broadway you already have the 32/142/251/292 and Kingsbury Green has the 204 (and 79 a walk down the road).

This link has never previously been needed, so I’m not sure why it’s needed now. It can still be done by changing at Burnt Oak Broadway with an option of 4 routes (so generally very minimal waiting time)

Otherwise your robbing an entire neighbourhood of a bus route (keeping in mind the 303 already got taken away) for not much use, so I’m not sure why it’s constantly brought up, when so many routes in the area already reach Edgware. People need to remember it’s not all about terminating in main bus stations, residential areas and other smaller shopping areas such as Mill Hill also need serving, with 2 schools also along the section of the 302 in question.

I certainly wouldn’t leave any of that area without a bus service, was just interested in how the 302 is used in that area and then how to resolve the impact of the 303/305 changes which has left Deansbrook Road without a bus service to Edgware.
Would be interested to know if you have thoughts on how the network in Colindale, Burnt Oak and Mill Hill could be improved. Does the 125 extend far enough into Colindale for example or should it go further?

[VWH1414]

Dec 17, 2022 16:59:32 GMT evergreenadam said:

Dec 17, 2022 16:10:10 GMT VWH1414 said:

Not sure how many times I’ve answered this on here, but no it does not need to go to Edgware…

I live on the said part of route in question, and it is well used in terms of it serves a road that’s already had the 303 ripped away from it and a large swathe of residential housing, between Burnt Oak and Mill Hill it doesn’t serve areas that have a route already, Orange Hill Road doesn’t have a route since the 305 was withdrawn and Deansbrook Road lost its link as a result of the reroute. Mill Hill also has the Thameslink Station and links to other areas further east via other bus routes.

So by no means is it useless, again I use it everyday and it’s often quite busy in the morning and afternoon peak. Going to Edgware doesn’t provide much use when at Burnt Oak Broadway you already have the 32/142/251/292 and Kingsbury Green has the 204 (and 79 a walk down the road).

This link has never previously been needed, so I’m not sure why it’s needed now. It can still be done by changing at Burnt Oak Broadway with an option of 4 routes (so generally very minimal waiting time)

Otherwise your robbing an entire neighbourhood of a bus route (keeping in mind the 303 already got taken away) for not much use, so I’m not sure why it’s constantly brought up, when so many routes in the area already reach Edgware. People need to remember it’s not all about terminating in main bus stations, residential areas and other smaller shopping areas such as Mill Hill also need serving, with 2 schools also along the section of the 302 in question.

I certainly wouldn’t leave any of that area without a bus service, was just interested in how the 302 is used in that area and then how to resolve the impact of the 303/305 changes which has left Deansbrook Road without a bus service to Edgware.
Would be interested to know if you have thoughts on how the network in Colindale, Burnt Oak and Mill Hill could be improved. Does the 125 extend far enough into Colindale for example or should it go further?

In general I’d say the Burnt Oak and Colindale network works pretty well currently, in Mill Hill however I’d potentially reroute the 113 through Mill Hill Broadway, not only would it miss the awful peak time traffic at Apex Corner but it’d provide a nice link to the local area with a benefit of serving the thameslink station. Similarly I’d reroute the 240 via Deansbrook Road to replace the 303, also prevents Hale Lane from then having 4 routes to Edgware (3 is already overkill if you ask me). That way old links are replaced and new links are created.

The only other thing I’d say is the 186 could in theory be split in half, as generally most of the flows seem to be Brent Cross to Grahame Park/Mill Hill/Edgware or Edgware to Harrow/NPH, and you could have both half’s interworking between Edgware and Mill Hill (via the A41) to not only keep capacity over that area during school times (referencing my 113 idea) but also allow adequate stops to interchange* You could then in theory extend the Brent Cross section further if needed. But then again doing this isn’t a necessity and the 186 can be left as it is - but could be an idea since the 186 is very long and has quite a few traffic prone spots along the route.

* - A lot of routes cut in half generally still share a common section, 52/302 is a good example which both share the same section between Kensal Rise to Willesden, dating back from when the 52 was cut back from Mill Hill and the 302 was born in the 90s. There’s probably a more recent example but there’s quite a few others from the 90s/00s that I can think of.

[vjaska]

Dec 17, 2022 18:12:34 GMT VWH1414 said:

Dec 17, 2022 16:59:32 GMT evergreenadam said:

I certainly wouldn’t leave any of that area without a bus service, was just interested in how the 302 is used in that area and then how to resolve the impact of the 303/305 changes which has left Deansbrook Road without a bus service to Edgware.
Would be interested to know if you have thoughts on how the network in Colindale, Burnt Oak and Mill Hill could be improved. Does the 125 extend far enough into Colindale for example or should it go further?

In general I’d say the Burnt Oak and Colindale network works pretty well currently, in Mill Hill however I’d potentially reroute the 113 through Mill Hill Broadway, not only would it miss the awful peak time traffic at Apex Corner but it’d provide a nice link to the local area with a benefit of serving the thameslink station. Similarly I’d reroute the 240 via Deansbrook Road to replace the 303, also prevents Hale Lane from then having 4 routes to Edgware (3 is already overkill if you ask me). That way old links are replaced and new links are created.

The only other thing I’d say is the 186 could in theory be split in half, as generally most of the flows seem to be Brent Cross to Grahame Park/Mill Hill/Edgware or Edgware to Harrow/NPH, and you could have both half’s interworking between Edgware and Mill Hill (via the A41) to not only keep capacity over that area during school times (referencing my 113 idea) but also allow adequate stops to interchange* You could then in theory extend the Brent Cross section further if needed. But then again doing this isn’t a necessity and the 186 can be left as it is - but could be an idea since the 186 is very long and has quite a few traffic prone spots along the route.

* - A lot of routes cut in half generally still share a common section, 52/302 is a good example which both share the same section between Kensal Rise to Willesden, dating back from when the 52 was cut back from Mill Hill and the 302 was born in the 90s. There’s probably a more recent example but there’s quite a few others from the 90s/00s that I can think of.

The 186 was brought up recently and according to the figures, it's reliability isn't too shabby so seems to do well despite the hotspots according to those figures

[aaron1]

I do wish the 302 had a night service as would link up a lot of places at night maybe like N52 from Victoria to Mill HILL

[VWH1419]

Dec 17, 2022 13:23:58 GMT evergreenadam said:

I would be interested to hear how well used the 302 is between Kingsbury and Mill Hill. What are the main journey purposes on this section, as Mill Hill doesn’t have a huge choice of shops. Would it be more useful if it ran to Edgware instead of Mill Hill or was rerouted to stop outside Morrisons and Asda on Edgware Road?

Me seeing an AC related bus route thread is like bread to the pigeons.

Personally while I only used it once for seriousness outside of joyriding, it is a very useful route that works well (and doesn’t need touching aside from some ramming issues? - Oak Gardens and Burnt Oak Station are good examples of nightmare stops.

You also have unique links from Kingsbury and just after Burnt Oak that uses the Northern Line and to Mill Hill Broadway - this has an Thameslink and one of Barnet’s nice larger parks if I was in Burnt Oak/Colindale(much nicer, more open AND far less dangerous than the one in Burnt Oak I might add). So not just small shops.

As mentioned by others, I also wouldn’t at all re-route from Mill Hill to Edgware. You’d ruin links from Mill Hill/Burnt Oak (114 goes an different way slightly)and also going into Kingsbury that has frequent stopping from stop to stop into Neasden. 32/142 and 204 do this already good enough, and would just over bus. For me personally 32 does an great job if I wanted get to Edgware via Colindale/Burnt Oak.
If the key is to have old 303/305 links, I’d reroute something already going into Edgware via Mill Hill. Far less radical.

[MKAY315]

VWH1414 quick question did you use the 302 when it (controversially) got demoted to a single decker back in the late 90s up to about 2010? If so how were the loadings like from your perspective and was it a relief when double deckers made its return.

On a side note do you remember when it had the lances back in the mid 90s as well?

[VWH1414]

Dec 18, 2022 9:13:11 GMT MKAY315 said:

VWH1414 quick question did you use the 302 when it (controversially) got demoted to a single decker back in the late 90s up to about 2010? If so how were the loadings like from your perspective and was it a relief when double deckers made its return.

On a side note do you remember when it had the lances back in the mid 90s as well?

Wasn’t quite alive yet in the 90s so missed anything in that era, but I did indeed use it with DLDs until 2010 and quite often they were rammed in the evening (Also quite an unreliable batch so breakdowns were common). Was a big relief when the VPs came in during 2010, many memories of the 53 reg batch, particularly VP500 which was a frequent on the route until it went to Holloway in 2016.

Whilst on the subject of routes going DD around the 00/10s the 107/240 were also big reliefs to have full time DDs - whilst they can be quiet during the day they can be absolutely rammed during the peaks (since going DD the 107 has even managed 2 PVR increases)

It’s a shame the 251 didn’t end up going DD in the 90s (it was planned and even on the blinds of Ms at EW). It going to 10.8m this tender is good news however, together with the current DEs with rock hard seats departing from the route.

[evergreenadam]

Would the 292 benefit from being extended to Colindale Station, instead of terminating at Asda?

There seems to be quite a big gap in westbound bus stops along Colindale Avenue in the vicinity of Colindale Station, lots of new housing developments but the bus stops are not best situated to serve them.

[southlondonbus]

Dec 18, 2022 9:13:11 GMT MKAY315 said:

VWH1414 quick question did you use the 302 when it (controversially) got demoted to a single decker back in the late 90s up to about 2010? If so how were the loadings like from your perspective and was it a relief when double deckers made its return.

On a side note do you remember when it had the lances back in the mid 90s as well?

It didn't even get much of and increase initially as it only went from every 15 to every 12 mins. Around 2003 I believe it went up to every 8 mins and still wasn't enough to cope all the time.

[LondonNorthern]

Dec 18, 2022 16:35:50 GMT evergreenadam said:

Would the 292 benefit from being extended to Colindale Station, instead of terminating at Asda?

There seems to be quite a big gap in westbound bus stops along Colindale Avenue in the vicinity of Colindale Station, lots of new housing developments but the bus stops are not best situated to serve them.

Personally I think the 125 would be better to extend to Colindale ASDA, Colindale is already linked to Burnt Oak and Edgware by a number of routes as well as the tube, the 125 however would offer a link from the ASDA and Edgware Road to Hendon and Finchley.

[VWH1414]

Dec 17, 2022 20:40:18 GMT vjaska said:

Dec 17, 2022 18:12:34 GMT VWH1414 said:

In general I’d say the Burnt Oak and Colindale network works pretty well currently, in Mill Hill however I’d potentially reroute the 113 through Mill Hill Broadway, not only would it miss the awful peak time traffic at Apex Corner but it’d provide a nice link to the local area with a benefit of serving the thameslink station. Similarly I’d reroute the 240 via Deansbrook Road to replace the 303, also prevents Hale Lane from then having 4 routes to Edgware (3 is already overkill if you ask me). That way old links are replaced and new links are created.

The only other thing I’d say is the 186 could in theory be split in half, as generally most of the flows seem to be Brent Cross to Grahame Park/Mill Hill/Edgware or Edgware to Harrow/NPH, and you could have both half’s interworking between Edgware and Mill Hill (via the A41) to not only keep capacity over that area during school times (referencing my 113 idea) but also allow adequate stops to interchange* You could then in theory extend the Brent Cross section further if needed. But then again doing this isn’t a necessity and the 186 can be left as it is - but could be an idea since the 186 is very long and has quite a few traffic prone spots along the route.

* - A lot of routes cut in half generally still share a common section, 52/302 is a good example which both share the same section between Kensal Rise to Willesden, dating back from when the 52 was cut back from Mill Hill and the 302 was born in the 90s. There’s probably a more recent example but there’s quite a few others from the 90s/00s that I can think of.

The 186 was brought up recently and according to the figures, it's reliability isn't too shabby so seems to do well despite the hotspots according to those figures

Oh no, I will say Metroline in general have done a very good job with the 186 - despite its very difficult conditions. But more so it'd help reduce the number of turns that end up inevitably have to be made to keep the service running at a good level (Which with the 186 they tend to do very tactically). Its more so of an idea that it could be done, by no means should it necessarily happen. But with cuts at the moment it could in theory be done and wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea (Although knowing TfL it would end up being a botch job like the 303/305), as the 186 from many years of observation has 2 main different flows which could be cut down into two separate routes.

For example I think a Edgware to Brent Park link would go down pretty well since there's no links to the big IKEA (Costco also being around the corner) and could be done utilising the 186 if you split it in two and you could actually replace the 288 with the shorter end of the 186 from Brent Cross to Edgware, with potential to extend it from Fryent Way and Wembley Park to Brent Park (But on the flip side it would run into traffic in Wembley Park that said), and the 303 like someone else mentioned does have scope to extend to Broadfields. Very much just fantasy ideas perhaps, but could work in real time - definitely not something I'd say should be brought in right away or even necessarily anytime soon however.

Overall, there isn't actually much I'd say I would desperately change in this area - Its actually a decent network currently. The main thing which I was very vocal about is the 303, which should've at least been replaced on its lost road. But even then I've made it work, just with a lengthened journey time of having to walk to either Mill Hill to catch the 221/240 or Watling Avenue to catch the 186. But thankfully these days I work in Central so its a case of just catching a 302 to Burnt Oak and then the tube (Or 114/251 if I just miss one and I'm running late - Or in the case of the diversion in October where the 302 was not serving my road for a month due to roadworks).

[evergreenadam]

Dec 19, 2022 19:59:29 GMT VWH1414 said:

Dec 17, 2022 20:40:18 GMT vjaska said:

The 186 was brought up recently and according to the figures, it's reliability isn't too shabby so seems to do well despite the hotspots according to those figures

Oh no, I will say Metroline in general have done a very good job with the 186 - despite its very difficult conditions. But more so it'd help reduce the number of turns that end up inevitably have to be made to keep the service running at a good level (Which with the 186 they tend to do very tactically). Its more so of an idea that it could be done, by no means should it necessarily happen. But with cuts at the moment it could in theory be done and wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea (Although knowing TfL it would end up being a botch job like the 303/305), as the 186 from many years of observation has 2 main different flows which could be cut down into two separate routes.

For example I think a Edgware to Brent Park link would go down pretty well since there's no links to the big IKEA (Costco also being around the corner) and could be done utilising the 186 if you split it in two and you could actually replace the 288 with the shorter end of the 186 from Brent Cross to Edgware, with potential to extend it from Fryent Way and Wembley Park to Brent Park (But on the flip side it would run into traffic in Wembley Park that said), and the 303 like someone else mentioned does have scope to extend to Broadfields. Very much just fantasy ideas perhaps, but could work in real time - definitely not something I'd say should be brought in right away or even necessarily anytime soon however.

Overall, there isn't actually much I'd say I would desperately change in this area - Its actually a decent network currently. The main thing which I was very vocal about is the 303, which should've at least been replaced on its lost road. But even then I've made it work, just with a lengthened journey time of having to walk to either Mill Hill to catch the 221/240 or Watling Avenue to catch the 186. But thankfully these days I work in Central so its a case of just catching a 302 to Burnt Oak and then the tube (Or 114/251 if I just miss one and I'm running late - Or in the case of the diversion in October where the 302 was not serving my road for a month due to roadworks).

Where is Broadfields?