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Post by enviroPB on Dec 21, 2023 15:24:45 GMT
Personally, that is what should happen - I know from a friend who is from Harold Wood that a direct link to Upminster is very welcome so having the 497 run direct there makes a lot of sense but also keeping the 346 local service intact means Upminster Park Estate residents continue to have a reliable link as well. The Ockendon section is very quiet so the enhanced frequency could either be overkill or generate new patronage though I suspect if Upminster had more stand space, the 497 could terminate together with the 346. I wonder what opposition there would be though to the 347's withdrawal, as there's hardly any housing on the unique section between Ockendon and Upminster. Perhaps another compromise could be to just have the 370 double run to Ockendon Station? I also don't think there's much of an issue in merging the 346 with the revised 497, as it still wouldn't be a particularly long route so should be reliable enough. But the 346's current frequency should ideally be maintained, or at least every 20 minutes might be a good balance. If TFL's 497 proposal would be too indirect, the easiest option would probably be the alternative that TFL mentioned, terminating at Upminster Park Estate? I suspect TfL don't want to open themselves up for legal action as the northern bit of Ockenden falls within the Greater London boundary, and the transport body has a statutory requirement to supply bus coverage over a certain radius. This isn't like yanking the 167 out of Debden, TfL have to serve the area with buses as some of the housing will be left with no public transport options.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Dec 21, 2023 15:31:24 GMT
I wonder what opposition there would be though to the 347's withdrawal, as there's hardly any housing on the unique section between Ockendon and Upminster. Perhaps another compromise could be to just have the 370 double run to Ockendon Station? I also don't think there's much of an issue in merging the 346 with the revised 497, as it still wouldn't be a particularly long route so should be reliable enough. But the 346's current frequency should ideally be maintained, or at least every 20 minutes might be a good balance. If TFL's 497 proposal would be too indirect, the easiest option would probably be the alternative that TFL mentioned, terminating at Upminster Park Estate? I suspect TfL don't want to open themselves up for legal action as the northern bit of Ockenden falls within the Greater London boundary, and the transport body has a statutory requirement to supply bus coverage over a certain radius. This isn't like yanking the 167 out of Debden, TfL have to serve the area with buses as some of the housing will be left with no public transport options. As there is a train station I don't think culling the 347 in itself would present legal issues, not to mention the 370 also runs in the area providing the bus service.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 21, 2023 17:12:52 GMT
Personally, that is what should happen - I know from a friend who is from Harold Wood that a direct link to Upminster is very welcome so having the 497 run direct there makes a lot of sense but also keeping the 346 local service intact means Upminster Park Estate residents continue to have a reliable link as well. The Ockendon section is very quiet so the enhanced frequency could either be overkill or generate new patronage though I suspect if Upminster had more stand space, the 497 could terminate together with the 346. I wonder what opposition there would be though to the 347's withdrawal, as there's hardly any housing on the unique section between Ockendon and Upminster. Perhaps another compromise could be to just have the 370 double run to Ockendon Station? I also don't think there's much of an issue in merging the 346 with the revised 497, as it still wouldn't be a particularly long route so should be reliable enough. But the 346's current frequency should ideally be maintained, or at least every 20 minutes might be a good balance. If TFL's 497 proposal would be too indirect, the easiest option would probably be the alternative that TFL mentioned, terminating at Upminster Park Estate? There is no issue with the 346 - it does exactly what it was introduced to do which is link Upminster with Upminster Park Estate for the tube and shops. There is no benefit in merging it and the 497 together when they have two completely different purposes. Not everything is about length - the 346 in it's current state only has Upminster to worry about but throw in a merged 497 and it now has to worry about the A12 as well. We need more 346 type routes not less - these routes are typical of town centres across the country and unlike other bus features, can work well in a London system or a provincial system.
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 11:16:31 GMT
Update 10 January 2024
Today we have published the results of this consultation. We received 869 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part.
Following careful consideration of the consultation responses and a further review of what was proposed, we have decided to modify the original proposals and to proceed with a revised scheme as follows:
Route 346 – will be restructured to operate between Upminster Park Estate, Waycross Road, and Dagnam Park Square via Upminster and Harold Hill. We will not now install bus driver facilities at Waycross Road. In response to feedback, the restructured route will operate at a higher frequency than that consulted upon and a new Sunday service will be introduced. The route will therefore operate every 20 minutes Monday-Sunday daytimes and evenings Route 347 – will continue to operate Route 497 – will be replaced in its entirety by the extended route 346, as described above Details of the feedback we received, our response to the issues raised, and more information about next steps can be found in the consultation report.
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 11:17:00 GMT
They are keeping the 346 number and binning the 497 and keeping the 347!
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 11:24:44 GMT
Reading briefly the document, it seems the 347 is still very much under review it’s not got a certain future. 346 retains its 20 minute frequency rather than 30. Any ideas of what the PVR of the new 346 will be?
Changes are to occur on: 9th March 2024
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Post by TB123 on Jan 10, 2024 11:27:26 GMT
Reading briefly the document, it seems the 347 is still very much under review it’s not got a certain future. 346 retains its 20 minute frequency rather than 30. Any ideas of what the PVR of the new 346 will be? Changes are to occur on: 9th March 2024 I would assume 5, which is the same as the current combined 346/497?
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 10, 2024 11:33:54 GMT
Reading briefly the document, it seems the 347 is still very much under review it’s not got a certain future. 346 retains its 20 minute frequency rather than 30. Any ideas of what the PVR of the new 346 will be? Changes are to occur on: 9th March 2024 Probably after the election. Being outer London he is already pretty disliked for ULEZ.
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 11:48:26 GMT
Reading briefly the document, it seems the 347 is still very much under review it’s not got a certain future. 346 retains its 20 minute frequency rather than 30. Any ideas of what the PVR of the new 346 will be? Changes are to occur on: 9th March 2024 I would assume 5, which is the same as the current combined 346/497? I was thinking potentially 6 as the 497 section is getting an increase in frequency. 3 BPH in each direction. This could be made up of existing allocation of 37579-82, 37540-41 & NS spare 36555 unless Stagecoach chose to standardise the allocation to MMCs or E200s.
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Post by busman on Jan 10, 2024 12:00:15 GMT
Update 10 January 2024 Today we have published the results of this consultation. We received 869 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. Following careful consideration of the consultation responses and a further review of what was proposed, we have decided to modify the original proposals and to proceed with a revised scheme as follows: Route 346 – will be restructured to operate between Upminster Park Estate, Waycross Road, and Dagnam Park Square via Upminster and Harold Hill. We will not now install bus driver facilities at Waycross Road. In response to feedback, the restructured route will operate at a higher frequency than that consulted upon and a new Sunday service will be introduced. The route will therefore operate every 20 minutes Monday-Sunday daytimes and evenings Route 347 – will continue to operate Route 497 – will be replaced in its entirety by the extended route 346, as described above Details of the feedback we received, our response to the issues raised, and more information about next steps can be found in the consultation report. Politically unviable right now to cut bus services in outer London boroughs whilst simultaneously imposing ULEZ. In the initial consultation, TfL suggested data did not support the existing frequency of the 346, but they are now retaining it. Now Khan can say that he has improved bus services in the area due to the frequency upgrade on the 497 section. It’s a great outcome for the local passengers.
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 12:03:44 GMT
Update 10 January 2024 Today we have published the results of this consultation. We received 869 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. Following careful consideration of the consultation responses and a further review of what was proposed, we have decided to modify the original proposals and to proceed with a revised scheme as follows: Route 346 – will be restructured to operate between Upminster Park Estate, Waycross Road, and Dagnam Park Square via Upminster and Harold Hill. We will not now install bus driver facilities at Waycross Road. In response to feedback, the restructured route will operate at a higher frequency than that consulted upon and a new Sunday service will be introduced. The route will therefore operate every 20 minutes Monday-Sunday daytimes and evenings Route 347 – will continue to operate Route 497 – will be replaced in its entirety by the extended route 346, as described above Details of the feedback we received, our response to the issues raised, and more information about next steps can be found in the consultation report. Politically unviable right now to cut bus services in outer London boroughs whilst simultaneously imposing ULEZ. In the initial consultation, TfL suggested data did not support the existing frequency of the 346, but they are now retaining it. Now Khan can say that he has improved bus services in the area due to the frequency upgrade on the 497 section. It’s a great outcome for the local passengers. I can easily see this merger actually being quite useful and may even require an additional increase in frequency down the line with the new links and existing passenger from both 497 & 346. The 346 has been quite busy at times and the 497 recently I’ve seen has had quite a full bus from Harold Wood into Harold Hill. Also connects Elizabeth Line with the district line at Upminster.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jan 10, 2024 12:04:01 GMT
I'm curious to see where the additional funding was sourced to fund a frequency increase.
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Post by adl on Jan 10, 2024 12:08:09 GMT
I can still see them finding a way to get rid of the 347 it’s still under review and isn’t totally safe. Although I’m not sure what would replace it as TFL were against an Ockendon to Harold Hill route as it’d give too much of an increase into Ockendon.
Other things raised in the consultation was that the 248 is severely overcrowded and that people seem to want the 370 to run from Ockendon Station to Romford, Queens Hospital. TFLs response was that it’s noted and they are still reviewing the bus network in the area.
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Post by WH241 on Jan 10, 2024 12:09:37 GMT
I'm curious to see where the additional funding was sourced to fund a frequency increase. I think Sadiq Khan planted a money tree when he moved City Hall to the Royal Docks.
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Post by borneobus on Jan 10, 2024 12:14:25 GMT
Politically unviable right now to cut bus services in outer London boroughs whilst simultaneously imposing ULEZ. In the initial consultation, TfL suggested data did not support the existing frequency of the 346, but they are now retaining it. Now Khan can say that he has improved bus services in the area due to the frequency upgrade on the 497 section. It’s a great outcome for the local passengers. I can easily see this merger actually being quite useful and may even require an additional increase in frequency down the line with the new links and existing passenger from both 497 & 346. The 346 has been quite busy at times and the 497 recently I’ve seen has had quite a full bus from Harold Wood into Harold Hill. Also connects Elizabeth Line with the district line at Upminster. Interesting (and good for the locals) outcome that's contrary to the oft-repeated mantra that consultations "Are a waste of time / they've already made their minds up" etc.
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