|
Post by WH241 on Jan 10, 2024 12:16:39 GMT
I can easily see this merger actually being quite useful and may even require an additional increase in frequency down the line with the new links and existing passenger from both 497 & 346. The 346 has been quite busy at times and the 497 recently I’ve seen has had quite a full bus from Harold Wood into Harold Hill. Also connects Elizabeth Line with the district line at Upminster. Interesting (and good for the locals) outcome that's contrary to the oft-repeated mantra that consultations "Are a waste of time / they've already made their minds up" etc. Funny they have listened to feedback this close to an election! I am sure consultations will revert to normal after April 😜
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Jan 10, 2024 12:49:00 GMT
Update 10 January 2024 Today we have published the results of this consultation. We received 869 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. Following careful consideration of the consultation responses and a further review of what was proposed, we have decided to modify the original proposals and to proceed with a revised scheme as follows: Route 346 – will be restructured to operate between Upminster Park Estate, Waycross Road, and Dagnam Park Square via Upminster and Harold Hill. We will not now install bus driver facilities at Waycross Road. In response to feedback, the restructured route will operate at a higher frequency than that consulted upon and a new Sunday service will be introduced. The route will therefore operate every 20 minutes Monday-Sunday daytimes and evenings Route 347 – will continue to operate Route 497 – will be replaced in its entirety by the extended route 346, as described above Details of the feedback we received, our response to the issues raised, and more information about next steps can be found in the consultation report. Disappointed that the 346 service wasn’t left as is with the 497 running direct from Harold Wood to Upminster - that’s what locals were after but instead, TfL still insisted on sending people via Upminster Park Estate for Harold Wood to Upminster journeys
|
|
|
Post by TB123 on Jan 10, 2024 12:54:09 GMT
Update 10 January 2024 Today we have published the results of this consultation. We received 869 responses to the consultation and would like to thank everyone that took part. Following careful consideration of the consultation responses and a further review of what was proposed, we have decided to modify the original proposals and to proceed with a revised scheme as follows: Route 346 – will be restructured to operate between Upminster Park Estate, Waycross Road, and Dagnam Park Square via Upminster and Harold Hill. We will not now install bus driver facilities at Waycross Road. In response to feedback, the restructured route will operate at a higher frequency than that consulted upon and a new Sunday service will be introduced. The route will therefore operate every 20 minutes Monday-Sunday daytimes and evenings Route 347 – will continue to operate Route 497 – will be replaced in its entirety by the extended route 346, as described above Details of the feedback we received, our response to the issues raised, and more information about next steps can be found in the consultation report. Disappointed that the 346 service wasn’t left as is with the 497 running direct from Harold Wood to Upminster - that’s what locals were after but instead, TfL still insisted on sending people via Upminster Park Estate for Harold Wood to Upminster journeys It is going to run direct from Upminster to Harold Wood. It'll serve Upminster park estate after the station.
|
|
|
Post by ADH45258 on Jan 10, 2024 13:05:11 GMT
I can still see them finding a way to get rid of the 347 it’s still under review and isn’t totally safe. Although I’m not sure what would replace it as TFL were against an Ockendon to Harold Hill route as it’d give too much of an increase into Ockendon. Other things raised in the consultation was that the 248 is severely overcrowded and that people seem to want the 370 to run from Ockendon Station to Romford, Queens Hospital. TFLs response was that it’s noted and they are still reviewing the bus network in the area. It definitely seems a very odd choice to have both the 346 and 347 now going between Harold Wood and Upminster, and with the 346/497 merger operating at a higher frequency than originally proposed. Also surprised they have chosen to keep the 346 number, considering how recently the 497 was introduced, with the 497 also having the publicity associated with the Elizabeth Line at Harold Wood. I think you could really just withdraw the 347 with no replacement. The unique section between Upminster and Ockendon is very rural with very little housing etc. You could just have the 370 double run to serve Ockendon Station if needed. If the 248 is overcrowded, a frequency increase would probably be the best option, with the 370 and Overground available alongside for Upminster-Romford journeys.
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Jan 10, 2024 13:44:30 GMT
I'm curious to see where the additional funding was sourced to fund a frequency increase. The section covered by the current 346 will actually see a reduction, from 15 to 20 minutes for the Monday-Saturday daytime service, so no additional funding should be required for this as the resources for the extended 346 are more-or-less the same as for the current 346 and 497. The new Sunday service however is very welcome, is in line with TfL's Public Service remit and can be funded by the extra money made available for services in Outer London under the last financial settlement (the bulk of which has been used for Superloop).
|
|
|
Post by joefrombow on Jan 10, 2024 14:09:52 GMT
I'm curious to see where the additional funding was sourced to fund a frequency increase. The section covered by the current 346 will actually see a reduction, from 15 to 20 minutes for the Monday-Saturday daytime service, so no additional funding should be required for this as the resources for the extended 346 are more-or-less the same as for the current 346 and 497. The new Sunday service however is very welcome, is in line with TfL's Public Service remit and can be funded by the extra money made available for services in Outer London under the last financial settlement (the bulk of which has been used for Superloop). 347 is just a "keep the voters happy" route and provide the minimum service requirement as a chunk of North Ockendon is in London and although it's only 4 journeys I guess it can't cost a lot to run although the income received if any must be very low as I'd imagine it's mainly freedom pass users but nice to see a good outcome of a consultation be interesting to see what happens with the W14 changes now .
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Jan 10, 2024 14:21:52 GMT
Disappointed that the 346 service wasn’t left as is with the 497 running direct from Harold Wood to Upminster - that’s what locals were after but instead, TfL still insisted on sending people via Upminster Park Estate for Harold Wood to Upminster journeys It is going to run direct from Upminster to Harold Wood. It'll serve Upminster park estate after the station. But is still tagged onto the route coming from Harold Hill that interacts with the A12 and thus, will be far more prone to delays. The 346 should of been left as is and then merge the 347 & 497 together which gives that direct link without impacting existing 346 users from Upminster Park Estate - even easier to implement now the 347 is staying put.
|
|
|
Post by lonmark on Jan 10, 2024 14:56:42 GMT
I read the information and was surprised that 497 passengers never used it as much as 346 at all. However, Hoping passenger can able to get bus 346 (soon) get from Harold Hill to Upminster without going via Romford! :-)
|
|
|
Post by mark on Jan 10, 2024 15:28:46 GMT
I wonder what opposition there would be though to the 347's withdrawal, as there's hardly any housing on the unique section between Ockendon and Upminster. Perhaps another compromise could be to just have the 370 double run to Ockendon Station? I also don't think there's much of an issue in merging the 346 with the revised 497, as it still wouldn't be a particularly long route so should be reliable enough. But the 346's current frequency should ideally be maintained, or at least every 20 minutes might be a good balance. If TFL's 497 proposal would be too indirect, the easiest option would probably be the alternative that TFL mentioned, terminating at Upminster Park Estate? I suspect TfL don't want to open themselves up for legal action as the northern bit of Ockenden falls within the Greater London boundary, and the transport body has a statutory requirement to supply bus coverage over a certain radius. This isn't like yanking the 167 out of Debden, TfL have to serve the area with buses as some of the housing will be left with no public transport options. During the various Covid related financial meltdowns ant TfL it became clear that only service it is legally obliged to provide is the Woolwich Free Ferry. Everything else is a matter of policy. The mayor’s transport strategy has a commitment to ensuring that at least 96% of households are within 400m of a bus stop.
|
|
|
Post by lundnah on Jan 10, 2024 15:36:11 GMT
347 is just a "keep the voters happy" route and provide the minimum service requirement as a chunk of North Ockendon is in London and although it's only 4 journeys I guess it can't cost a lot to run although the income received if any must be very low as I'd imagine it's mainly freedom pass users but nice to see a good outcome of a consultation be interesting to see what happens with the W14 changes now . The 347 is one of the least used bus routes in London in a borough that always votes Conservative.
If you were going to throw money at voters the 347 is literally the last route you'd choose.
Please, it's not always about politics.
|
|
|
Post by ADH45258 on Jan 10, 2024 16:16:53 GMT
I suspect TfL don't want to open themselves up for legal action as the northern bit of Ockenden falls within the Greater London boundary, and the transport body has a statutory requirement to supply bus coverage over a certain radius. This isn't like yanking the 167 out of Debden, TfL have to serve the area with buses as some of the housing will be left with no public transport options. If TFL are obliged to provide a service on this section, a short shuttle between Upminster and Ockendon would be adequate. The 347 doesn't take the most direct route between Upminster and Romford anyway, and the revised 346 will cover the section to Harold Wood - and so keeping the 347 unchanged does seem a poor use of resources. While the 347 does only have a PVR of 1 now, you could potentially reduce this to 0 if crosslinking with the 346 could fit with the schedule? So some 346 duties could go from Harold Hill to Upminster Park Estate, then run out of service to Upminster Station, and operate as a 347 to Ockendon and back, returning to the 346 again? I think there was a similar arrangment with the 327/491 when both were at NP? Alternatively you could still withdraw the 347 between Romford and Upminster, but extend onwards from Upminster or Ockendon to provide some new links - perhaps to Rainham, Aveley or County Park Estate?
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Jan 10, 2024 17:09:38 GMT
If TFL are obliged to provide a service on this section, a short shuttle between Upminster and Ockendon would be adequate. The 347 doesn't take the most direct route between Upminster and Romford anyway, and the revised 346 will cover the section to Harold Wood - and so keeping the 347 unchanged does seem a poor use of resources. While the 347 does only have a PVR of 1 now, you could potentially reduce this to 0 if crosslinking with the 346 could fit with the schedule? So some 346 duties could go from Harold Hill to Upminster Park Estate, then run out of service to Upminster Station, and operate as a 347 to Ockendon and back, returning to the 346 again? I think there was a similar arrangment with the 327/491 when both were at NP? Alternatively you could still withdraw the 347 between Romford and Upminster, but extend onwards from Upminster or Ockendon to provide some new links - perhaps to Rainham, Aveley or County Park Estate? The 347 does also provide a link to the large Tesco at Gallows Corner, which may be valued by some of the route's regulars. The 347 and 646* could be bundled into a single contract, with one of the vehicles operating a reduced Monday-Friday 347 timetable in between the 646 school runs. If a Saturday service is to be retained as well, an hour's break in the middle means it could be operated as a single driver's duty. * has to be the 646 as this is operated by single-deckers - there is a low bridge in St Mary's Lane, Cranham that precludes d/d operation on both routes.
|
|
|
Post by dannyl1989 on Jan 10, 2024 17:15:45 GMT
Very interesting to see the 497 scrapped as a number and the 346 extended in its place.
I live in Harold Wood and I am quite excited by this. A regular link to Upminster I think is needed. I am really unsure though having the 347 continue to run?
The 346 will also serve Tesco Gallows Corner as well. I don't think there is any demand from there to Romford on the 347. I think the only issue from what it seems is people losing a link from Upminster to Ockendon. Whenever I see the 347 it doesn't have many passengers at all and I think because it is not regular so people don't use it. With the 346 I can see there being a demand because it will have a regular service.
I guess stayed tuned for the 347.
|
|
|
Post by londonbuses on Jan 10, 2024 17:20:34 GMT
Since the extended 346 will duplicate the 347 between Upminster and Harold Wood and will serve Gallows Corner Tesco, my suggestion would be to simply make the 347 an off-peak hourly shuttle between Upminster and Ockendon, crosslinked off another route (so it would be very similar to the 389/399).
|
|
|
Post by busoccultation on Jan 10, 2024 19:06:10 GMT
Since the extended 346 will duplicate the 347 between Upminster and Harold Wood and will serve Gallows Corner Tesco, my suggestion would be to simply make the 347 an off-peak hourly shuttle between Upminster and Ockendon, crosslinked off another route (so it would be very similar to the 389/399). I did think about this when the consultation first came out, but then the 347 regulars who are generally are older people or those who got mobility issues will likely want to go into Romford or Gallows Corner to do their shopping on a routine basis and changing buses at Upminster would potentially be an issue for those people as you do have to cross the road if you want to have both the 248 & 370 as an option to Romford even if they get a hourly service instead.
|
|