|
|
Post by matthieu1221 on Jun 25, 2023 15:17:14 GMT
While I'm sure the 414 serves a purpose, it probably is administratively cheaper to run the 14 on its own with extra workings than it would be for the 414 to be a standalone contract. Each contract has overheads, and these will all not be fully absorbed by the operator. More contracts means more administrative costs, and while it's known GAL charge a lot for the 14 operation, RATP charge even more per mile for the 414 operation. Making these 14 short workings would be cheaper. Or bolstering the 14, maybe returning it to terminating at Tottenham Court Road like during the Routemaster days and doing away with the 414. The 430 suggestion is an excellent idea, props to whoever suggested that. The 72 being as busy as it was south of Hammersmith would show that there could be some patronage. Swapping out the 14 so another route (ideally running east west along Oxford Street) can take over the Russell Square section would be far more useful than the current situation -- which tends to carry air. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 15:29:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by southlondonbus on Jun 25, 2023 15:29:09 GMT
Or bolstering the 14, maybe returning it to terminating at Tottenham Court Road like during the Routemaster days and doing away with the 414. The 430 suggestion is an excellent idea, props to whoever suggested that. The 72 being as busy as it was south of Hammersmith would show that there could be some patronage. Swapping out the 14 so another route (ideally running east west along Oxford Street) can take over the Russell Square section would be far more useful than the current situation -- which tends to carry air. I think really to be successful that link to the Britsh Museum/Russel Square really needs to link Oxford Circus/Street to hook in tourists from the Hotels in Russell Square. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 15:29:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by southlondonbus on Jun 25, 2023 15:29:19 GMT
Or bolstering the 14, maybe returning it to terminating at Tottenham Court Road like during the Routemaster days and doing away with the 414. The 430 suggestion is an excellent idea, props to whoever suggested that. The 72 being as busy as it was south of Hammersmith would show that there could be some patronage. Swapping out the 14 so another route (ideally running east west along Oxford Street) can take over the Russell Square section would be far more useful than the current situation -- which tends to carry air. I think really to be successful that link to the Britsh Museum/Russel Square really needs to link Oxford Circus/Street to hook in tourists from the Hotels in Russell Square. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 15:45:20 GMT
via mobile
Post by northlondon83 on Jun 25, 2023 15:45:20 GMT
Swapping out the 14 so another route (ideally running east west along Oxford Street) can take over the Russell Square section would be far more useful than the current situation -- which tends to carry air. I think really to be successful that link to the Britsh Museum/Russel Square really needs to link Oxford Circus/Street to hook in tourists from the Hotels in Russell Square. a 7 extension back to Russell Square would probably be the best option. You could also divert the 98 at TCR to Russell Square then withdraw the 14 to TCR, possibly even further back as those travelling from Green Park area to TCR already have the 19 and 38 to take them further |
|
|
|
Post by ADH45258 on Jun 25, 2023 16:18:58 GMT
I think really to be successful that link to the Britsh Museum/Russel Square really needs to link Oxford Circus/Street to hook in tourists from the Hotels in Russell Square. a 7 extension back to Russell Square would probably be the best option. You could also divert the 98 at TCR to Russell Square then withdraw the 14 to TCR, possibly even further back as those travelling from Green Park area to TCR already have the 19 and 38 to take them further Or could divert the 390 via Russell Square? That would re-introduce various links the 10 had previously provided between Hyde Park Corner and Kings Cross. The 73 would continue to go via Warren Street. However I also think the Euston/Kings Cross area could really benefit from a link via Piccadilly Circus to better link these terminus stations to the middle of the West End. And therefore might make sense to leave the 14 to Russell Square, but extended slightly further north? Or in summary, maybe the 14 could be restored to Warren Street, then extended onwards to at least Euston, or ideally Kings Cross. Then in turn divert the 390 (or 73) via Russell Square and the British Museum. And if the 414 is staying in the long term (which this thread is about), then I would also suggest swapping the Putney termini to allow the 14 to operate more reliably. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 16:33:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by evergreenadam on Jun 25, 2023 16:33:01 GMT
a 7 extension back to Russell Square would probably be the best option. You could also divert the 98 at TCR to Russell Square then withdraw the 14 to TCR, possibly even further back as those travelling from Green Park area to TCR already have the 19 and 38 to take them further Or could divert the 390 via Russell Square? That would re-introduce various links the 10 had previously provided between Hyde Park Corner and Kings Cross. The 73 would continue to go via Warren Street. However I also think the Euston/Kings Cross area could really benefit from a link via Piccadilly Circus to better link these terminus stations to the middle of the West End. And therefore might make sense to leave the 14 to Russell Square, but extended slightly further north? The problem with the 14 is that the journey time between Hyde Park Corner and Russell Square is so long due to traffic congestion. It makes it very uncompetitive with other modes, including walking. It is also expensive to operate as a lot of the PVR goes on high frequency buses stuck in solid traffic which then don’t earn very much revenue. That, together with the duplication with the 19 and 38 was why TfL wanted to thin out the Knightsbridge to Tottenham Court Road corridor. |
|
|
|
Post by rif153 on Jun 25, 2023 16:44:14 GMT
Or could divert the 390 via Russell Square? That would re-introduce various links the 10 had previously provided between Hyde Park Corner and Kings Cross. The 73 would continue to go via Warren Street. However I also think the Euston/Kings Cross area could really benefit from a link via Piccadilly Circus to better link these terminus stations to the middle of the West End. And therefore might make sense to leave the 14 to Russell Square, but extended slightly further north? The problem with the 14 is that the journey time between Hyde Park Corner and Russell Square is so long due to traffic congestion. It makes it very uncompetitive with other modes, including walking. It is also expensive to operate as a lot of the PVR goes on high frequency buses stuck in solid traffic which then don’t earn very much revenue. That, together with the duplication with the 19 and 38 was why TfL wanted to thin out the Knightsbridge to Tottenham Court Road corridor. The 14 is already quite similar to the Piccadilly line as it is so I can't see a King's Cross extension happening. There have now been two proposals to remove a route from Shaftesbury Avenue so surely that must be high on TFL's hit list for further bus cuts. There's quite a lot of duplication in the Knightsbridge area which seems hard to justify, as the 19 shares long common sections with both the 14 and 22. |
|
|
|
Post by northlondon83 on Jun 25, 2023 16:50:11 GMT
The problem with the 14 is that the journey time between Hyde Park Corner and Russell Square is so long due to traffic congestion. It makes it very uncompetitive with other modes, including walking. It is also expensive to operate as a lot of the PVR goes on high frequency buses stuck in solid traffic which then don’t earn very much revenue. That, together with the duplication with the 19 and 38 was why TfL wanted to thin out the Knightsbridge to Tottenham Court Road corridor. The 14 is already quite similar to the Piccadilly line as it is so I can't see a King's Cross extension happening. There have now been two proposals to remove a route from Shaftesbury Avenue so surely that must be high on TFL's hit list for further bus cuts. There's quite a lot of duplication in the Knightsbridge area which seems hard to justify, as the 19 shares long common sections with both the 14 and 22. I think that the 14 is quite vulnerable too, just as much as the 414. It basically follows the 414 and the 19/38 for about 85% of its route. There's also the Piccadilly line too and most stops in those areas are walkable. Quite surprised that the 14 didn't get altered in the recent consultation. Even the 19 is at risk, it's a long route and it follows the 4, 38 and the 22 for a huge amount of its route. Personally I think that the 19 might have been the better route to bin than the 4 |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 17:19:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by WH241 on Jun 25, 2023 17:19:33 GMT
The 14 is already quite similar to the Piccadilly line as it is so I can't see a King's Cross extension happening. There have now been two proposals to remove a route from Shaftesbury Avenue so surely that must be high on TFL's hit list for further bus cuts. There's quite a lot of duplication in the Knightsbridge area which seems hard to justify, as the 19 shares long common sections with both the 14 and 22. I think that the 14 is quite vulnerable too, just as much as the 414. It basically follows the 414 and the 19/38 for about 85% of its route. There's also the Piccadilly line too and most stops in those areas are walkable. Quite surprised that the 14 didn't get altered in the recent consultation. Even the 19 is at risk, it's a long route and it follows the 4, 38 and the 22 for a huge amount of its route. Personally I think that the 19 might have been the better route to bin than the 4 Lots of trunk routes are duplicated by others in London it’s just how the network works. Other in east London we have lots of examples and would be very hard to remove a route. It’s not always as simple as just removing one route and increasing the PVR on others. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 17:21:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by southlondonbus on Jun 25, 2023 17:21:57 GMT
I think that the 14 is quite vulnerable too, just as much as the 414. It basically follows the 414 and the 19/38 for about 85% of its route. There's also the Piccadilly line too and most stops in those areas are walkable. Quite surprised that the 14 didn't get altered in the recent consultation. Even the 19 is at risk, it's a long route and it follows the 4, 38 and the 22 for a huge amount of its route. Personally I think that the 19 might have been the better route to bin than the 4 Lots of trunk routes are duplicated by others in London it’s just how the network works. Other in east London we have lots of examples and would be very hard to remove a route. It’s not always as simple as just removing one route and increasing the PVR on others. Its been proposed twice by tfl so I think it would be possible. I doubt the 19 and 38 would even need increases with the lower loadings along Shaftesbury Avenue standstill. |
|
|
|
Post by northlondon83 on Jun 25, 2023 17:22:41 GMT
I think that the 14 is quite vulnerable too, just as much as the 414. It basically follows the 414 and the 19/38 for about 85% of its route. There's also the Piccadilly line too and most stops in those areas are walkable. Quite surprised that the 14 didn't get altered in the recent consultation. Even the 19 is at risk, it's a long route and it follows the 4, 38 and the 22 for a huge amount of its route. Personally I think that the 19 might have been the better route to bin than the 4 Lots of trunk routes are duplicated by others in London it’s just how the network works. Other in east London we have lots of examples and would be very hard to remove a route. It’s not always as simple as just removing one route and increasing the PVR on others. I think comparing central London to outer London is comparing two different scenarios. You have plenty of alternatives in central London, most journeys on the 14 can be done on the tube as well as other bus routes, or even walking to your destination. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Jun 25, 2023 17:33:34 GMT
I think perhaps people don't realise how many passengers the 414 picks up at Marble Arch in the afternoon peak. TfL kept it running to there for a reason That’s interesting, where are they travelling to? As far as South Ken, so it’s just an alternative to the 74 or beyond? Exactly, I suspect the only time the 414 picks up a significant load at Marble Arch is when there's a gap in the 74 service. I would imagine very few people wait specifically for a 414 and they would get on a 14 or 74 if that came first and as I said previously I really do wonder how many people would even if the 414 was withdrawn overnight? Having said that retaining the 414 and withdrawing the 14 instead did make some sense but now that the 14 is staying what is the need for the 414? |
|
|
|
Post by northlondon83 on Jun 25, 2023 17:40:43 GMT
That’s interesting, where are they travelling to? As far as South Ken, so it’s just an alternative to the 74 or beyond? Exactly, I suspect the only time the 414 picks up a significant load at Marble Arch is when there's a gap in the 74 service. I would imagine very few people wait specifically for a 414 and they would get on a 14 or 74 if that came first and as I said previously I really do wonder how many people would even if the 414 was withdrawn overnight? Having said that retaining the 414 and withdrawing the 14 instead did make some sense but now that the 14 is staying what is the need for the 414? The 414 is pretty useless for many because the 14 goes further south. If you're living in Fulham for example wanting to get to Putney the 414 won't get you there! A Marble Arch to Putney Heath would have made the route more useful however I'd divert the 14 to Marble Arch and do away with the 414 number because I think it's weird to get rid of the smaller number. |
|
|
|
Route 414
Jun 25, 2023 18:13:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by ADH45258 on Jun 25, 2023 18:13:08 GMT
Lots of trunk routes are duplicated by others in London it’s just how the network works. Other in east London we have lots of examples and would be very hard to remove a route. It’s not always as simple as just removing one route and increasing the PVR on others. Its been proposed twice by tfl so I think it would be possible. I doubt the 19 and 38 would even need increases with the lower loadings along Shaftesbury Avenue standstill. However along this corridor there's even more overlap between the 19/38 than the 14/19. Is there a need for two routes between Hyde Park Corner and Islington, assuming capacity meets demand on each section? As part of a wider restructure, I previously suggested splitting the 19 into two overlapping routes to cover the Shaftesbury Avenue corridor, also replacing parts of the 14 and 38. Yes the 14 parallels the Piccadilly Line a lot, but it's still useful for various shorter journeys, particularly where it's more convenient that going up and down escalators. Also with my suggestion to send the 14 to Kings Cross, remember that the Piccadilly Line doesn't serve Euston. Plenty of tourists will arrive by train into Euston, and want an easy connection into the West End. Currently there's no bus link from Euston between the 91 at Holborn/Trafalgar Square and the 73/390 along Oxford Street. Before it was rerouted you could at least walk a short distance to Warren Street for the 14. |
|
|
|
Post by northlondon83 on Jun 25, 2023 18:27:28 GMT
Its been proposed twice by tfl so I think it would be possible. I doubt the 19 and 38 would even need increases with the lower loadings along Shaftesbury Avenue standstill. However along this corridor there's even more overlap between the 19/38 than the 14/19. Is there a need for two routes between Hyde Park Corner and Islington, assuming capacity meets demand on each section? As part of a wider restructure, I previously suggested splitting the 19 into two overlapping routes to cover the Shaftesbury Avenue corridor, also replacing parts of the 14 and 38. Yes the 14 parallels the Piccadilly Line a lot, but it's still useful for various shorter journeys, particularly where it's more convenient that going up and down escalators. Also with my suggestion to send the 14 to Kings Cross, remember that the Piccadilly Line doesn't serve Euston. Plenty of tourists will arrive by train into Euston, and want an easy connection into the West End. Currently there's no bus link from Euston between the 91 at Holborn/Trafalgar Square and the 73/390 along Oxford Street. Before it was rerouted you could at least walk a short distance to Warren Street for the 14. The previous proposal to withdraw the 19 between Battersea and Holborn could be revisited, however I'd have it operate as Finsbury Park to Piccadilly Circus alongside: diverting the 22 to Battersea and withdrawing it between Green Park and Oxford Circus, then sending it to Russell Square via the 14. This would retain links on the 19 from Battersea to TCR, whilst an overlap would still exisit between Piccadilly and TCR withdrawing the 14 renumbering the current 414 as the 14 withdraw the 11 between New Kings Road and Fulham Broadway and send to Putney Common withdraw the 137 between Marble Arch and Hyde Park Corner and send to Oxford Circus via the 22 Unfortunately some links will have to be lost like from parts of New Kings Road to Fulham Broadway and from Sloane Square/Battersea Park to Marble Arch but it would be justifiable in my opinion |
|
