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Post by buspete on Jun 27, 2023 19:59:38 GMT
I am wondering why that Bromley being such a big town and an urban area which has a comprehensive bus network, why this didn't get its own bus network with a clean sheet design in the same way as Orpington (Roundabout) and Bexleybus (Bexleyheath)?
Instead there has been a piecemeal approach over the years, looking at the current bus network and I would confidently say Bromley would be the perfect town for this, thinking bus route, such as;
126 - Bromley - Mottingham - Eltham
138 - Coney Hall - Hayes - Bromley
146 - Bromley - Keston - Downe
162 - Beckenham - Bromley - Eltham
246 - Bromley - Biggin Hill - Westerham
273 - Lewisham - Chistlehurst - Petts Wood
314 - Eltham -Bromley -
336 - Locks Bottom - Bromley - Catford
352 - Lower Sydenham - Beckenham - Bromley
354 - Penge - Beckenham - Bromley
356 - Shirley - Penge - Upper Sydenham
358 - Orpington - Bromley - Crystal Palace
367 - Bromley - Elmers End - Croydon
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Post by danorak on Jun 27, 2023 20:38:18 GMT
It did to some extent with the 1990 midibus scheme that converted the 126 and brought the 314, 336 etc into existence. Also Metrobus developed its own network, much of which we still see today, at a point where deregulation was still planned and there was no real need for LRT (as was) to interfere.
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 27, 2023 21:06:49 GMT
TfL are so bad with branding, it's probably blessing in disguise having seen their efforts in Barkingside and Hayes  |
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Post by WH241 on Jun 27, 2023 21:45:48 GMT
TfL are so bad with branding, it's probably blessing in disguise having seen their efforts in Barkingside and Hayes The funny thing is the 150 actually stands out in Ilford now as this route still contains the branding long after other routes went back to normal. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 27, 2023 21:56:54 GMT
I am wondering why that Bromley being such a big town and an urban area which has a comprehensive bus network, why this didn't get its own bus network with a clean sheet design in the same way as Orpington (Roundabout) and Bexleybus (Bexleyheath)? Instead there has been a piecemeal approach over the years, looking at the current bus network and I would confidently say Bromley would be the perfect town for this, thinking bus route, such as; 126 - Bromley - Mottingham - Eltham 138 - Coney Hall - Hayes - Bromley 146 - Bromley - Keston - Downe 162 - Beckenham - Bromley - Eltham 246 - Bromley - Biggin Hill - Westerham 273 - Lewisham - Chistlehurst - Petts Wood 314 - Eltham -Bromley - 336 - Locks Bottom - Bromley - Catford 352 - Lower Sydenham - Beckenham - Bromley 354 - Penge - Beckenham - Bromley 356 - Shirley - Penge - Upper Sydenham 358 - Orpington - Bromley - Crystal Palace 367 - Bromley - Elmers End - Croydon Ironically, I think the R routes in Orpington and U routes in Uxbridge are the two best networks for any branding exercise as they both center on one particular town centre much like what happens outside London and are more related to each through their corresponding prefix letter - not saying Bromley couldn't work (I'm interested to hear how you'd do it with that list of routes) but I just find those two places to lend itself to it that little bit more. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Jun 28, 2023 9:42:43 GMT
Bus branding only works on special types of routes like the Super loop routes in my opinion. The other prefix routes maybe but not for a town like Bromley where most of the routes are numbers
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123ToLondon
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Post by 123ToLondon on Jun 28, 2023 15:40:14 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150
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Post by wirewiper on Jun 28, 2023 16:04:32 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150 Route branding is more important outside the London context. It can be used to promote awareness of routes and destinations, frequencies and even specific fare deals. There isn't a "one size fits all" approach, it needs to be tailored to individual routes of groups of routes. It also has to be executed properly, branded buses on the wrong route lose the operator credibility. The problem that London has it that it is really a series of overlapping and interlocking bus networks, which means that branding can become confused and meaningless. However some bespoke branding for individual routes, like the 383, can work well. Just don't expect it to set the world on fire (er even East Finchley, for that matter). I also think the Superloop routes should be branded. But please - no vinyls over windows! (my pet peeve). One place that still does branding very well is Reading. In 2004 Reading Buses adopted the "Premier Routes" concept, where the nine main routes and corridors were identified. Over the next four years each route/corridor was given its own colour, but in a standardised style across the whole fleet. The colours extended to bus stop flags and publicity. The scheme was backed up by having a small number of spare vehicles in a neutral "generic" livery which could operate on any route as required. Although the concept has been adapted over the years as the Reading Buses network has changed and evolved, and the colour schemes have been updated, route branding in Reading operates to pretty much the same principles even today. I keep saying this - it takes less than half-an-hour on the train from London Paddington to Reading. Get yourself an off-peak day return, buy a £3.40 (yes, £3.40) all-day bus ticket for the Greater Reading area and experience very different ways of thinking about running a bus service. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 28, 2023 16:18:51 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150 Route branding is more important outside the London context. It can be used to promote awareness of routes and destinations, frequencies and even specific fare deals. There isn't a "one size fits all" approach, it needs to be tailored to individual routes of groups of routes. It also has to be executed properly, branded buses on the wrong route lose the operator credibility. The problem that London has it that it is really a series of overlapping and interlocking bus networks, which means that branding can become confused and meaningless. However some bespoke branding for individual routes, like the 383, can work well. Just don't expect it to set the world on fire (er even East Finchley, for that matter). I also think the Superloop routes should be branded. But please - no vinyls over windows! (my pet peeve). One place that still does branding very well is Reading. In 2004 Reading Buses adopted the "Premier Routes" concept, where the nine main routes and corridors were identified. Over the next four years each route/corridor was given its own colour, but in a standardised style across the whole fleet. The colours extended to bus stop flags and publicity. The scheme was backed up by having a small number of spare vehicles in a neutral "generic" livery which could operate on any route as required. Although the concept has been adapted over the years as the Reading Buses network has changed and evolved, and the colour schemes have been updated, route branding in Reading operates to pretty much the same principles even today. I keep saying this - it takes less than half-an-hour on the train from London Paddington to Reading. Get yourself an off-peak day return, buy a £3.40 (yes, £3.40) all-day bus ticket for the Greater Reading area and experience very different ways of thinking about running a bus service. Second that regarding Reading though I do think Kent, Surrey & Sussex (and a part of Hampshire) on a Discovery ticket across multiple operators with lovely scenic routes is the best starting point for anyone looking for outer London journeys. Regards to branding, I don't think branded buses on the wrong route is as big a deal as some think - it happens outside London more than people think and yet operators or passengers aren't losing sleep over it. In some circumstances, it could open someone's eyes up to links they wouldn't otherwise know or use especially in a more day trip/tourist day out. I think branding can absolutely play a role in London, the 383 is a good example and I think there are more opportunites for clever branding across certain networks & corridors. |
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Post by greenboy on Jun 28, 2023 16:36:42 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150 There are many good reasons which TfL seem unable to grasp hence the failure of the rather half hearted Barkingside and Hayes schemes. Nottingham City Transport for example, widely regarded as the best bus operator in the country, do it very well. Branded buses very rarely appear on wrong routes and if they do it's usually just for a short period to cover an emergency and the bus is quickly subbed for sometime more suitable. Visitors to the popular Nottingham Goose Fair for example are advised that any bus on the Brown, Lime, Purple or Yellow lines will take them there and there is no need to try and memorise route numbers. The colour coding also helps visually impaired passengers to identify their bus a lot easier. |
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Post by WH241 on Jun 28, 2023 16:46:38 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150 There are many good reasons which TfL seem unable to grasp hence the failure of the rather half hearted Barkingside and Hayes schemes. Nottingham City Transport for example, widely regarded as the best bus operator in the country, do it very well. Branded buses very rarely appear on wrong routes and if they do it's usually just for a short period to cover an emergency and the bus is quickly subbed for sometime more suitable. Visitors to the popular Nottingham Goose Fair for example are advised that any bus on the Brown, Lime, Purple or Yellow lines will take them there and there is no need to try and memorise route numbers. The colour coding also helps visually impaired passengers to identify their bus a lot easier. Repeating myself here but once reason I can never see branding taking off in London is because it would make allocations so restricted! Even with a pool of unbranded buses it would still allocations on a daily bases difficult. You only have to look at LVF daily to see how buses mix freely across routes at a garage. An example at WH would be having to keep 3 lots of smart hybrids separate for the 241,330 and 474 if they were branded where as now anything goes.
My personal view is branding is waste of time in London. People can't even grasp reading blind display so will pay little attention to the side of the bus. Give them a bus that turns up on time and makes good progress over branding.
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Post by buspete on Jun 28, 2023 17:34:45 GMT
Not saying having branded bus routes now, just wondering why it never happened in Bromley, even though there was plenty of scope to do so, with plenty of potential bus routes and unserved roads. Bexleybus was a brilliant concept, however the execution was a different matter!
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 29, 2023 6:01:13 GMT
Does anyone know a good reason for branding routes, in areas like Barkingside everyone just forgets about them or just never cared for it and eventually the branded routes just get onto other routes like the 150 There are many good reasons which TfL seem unable to grasp hence the failure of the rather half hearted Barkingside and Hayes schemes. Nottingham City Transport for example, widely regarded as the best bus operator in the country, do it very well. Branded buses very rarely appear on wrong routes and if they do it's usually just for a short period to cover an emergency and the bus is quickly subbed for sometime more suitable. Visitors to the popular Nottingham Goose Fair for example are advised that any bus on the Brown, Lime, Purple or Yellow lines will take them there and there is no need to try and memorise route numbers. The colour coding also helps visually impaired passengers to identify their bus a lot easier. The main issue is TfL would want to slather everything in their New Johnston font, which although iconic, won't catch the eye as the vibrant schemes from the likes of Reading Buses, Trent Barton and others, where it won't be a half-arsed wrap where the red shows through if the bus gets in a scrape, but also information online, bright, inviting interiors, WiFi on the bus (we've only just managed that on the Overground)... where only now LED blinds are becoming the norm, there's a hell of a lot of catch-up to do. Bus breakdowns, buses being subbed quickly and going on other routes short notice would be the reason it won't catch on in London. SuperLoop could be a chance to get it right, they had an opportunity to brand buses for the X26, but perhaps the disaster in Hayes put them off trying  |
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Post by greenboy on Jun 29, 2023 6:34:34 GMT
There are many good reasons which TfL seem unable to grasp hence the failure of the rather half hearted Barkingside and Hayes schemes. Nottingham City Transport for example, widely regarded as the best bus operator in the country, do it very well. Branded buses very rarely appear on wrong routes and if they do it's usually just for a short period to cover an emergency and the bus is quickly subbed for sometime more suitable. Visitors to the popular Nottingham Goose Fair for example are advised that any bus on the Brown, Lime, Purple or Yellow lines will take them there and there is no need to try and memorise route numbers. The colour coding also helps visually impaired passengers to identify their bus a lot easier. The main issue is TfL would want to slather everything in their New Johnston font, which although iconic, won't catch the eye as the vibrant schemes from the likes of Reading Buses, Trent Barton and others, where it won't be a half-arsed wrap where the red shows through if the bus gets in a scrape, but also information online, bright, inviting interiors, WiFi on the bus (we've only just managed that on the Overground)... where only now LED blinds are becoming the norm, there's a hell of a lot of catch-up to do. Bus breakdowns, buses being subbed quickly and going on other routes short notice would be the reason it won't catch on in London. SuperLoop could be a chance to get it right, they had an opportunity to brand buses for the X26, but perhaps the disaster in Hayes put them off trying The X26 is finally getting route branding, it could have been done a few years ago as the luggage rack fitted WVL's rarely appear on other routes. I can only think of a few rogue appearances on the 405 when GAL had the route. |
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Post by cardinal on Jun 29, 2023 9:07:29 GMT
Interesting subject.
Kingston Bus legacy gave us the K1,K2 & K3 initially. They all replaced parts of “big bus” routes 71,152,215,216 & 281. And penetrated Sunray Estate plus giving Berrylands, Claygate, Chessington Industrial Estate and parts of Hook a more frequent service. Then came the K4/5/6. The initial K5 has now expanded and the former K6 taken over by part of the K3. K4 hasn’t changed much.
Bromley area routes were never put out to mass tender. But the area already had quite a few localised routes, some ex London Country routes and some independent routes run by Metrobus. Routes like the 138,146,246,352,354 could easily have been given a letter prefix and branded Bromley Bus.
It would be interesting to know why LRT decided to target Harrow, Kingston, Bexleyheath and to a lesser extent Sutton. All those garages ( A,BX,HD & NB) suffered and one had to close eventually.
Imagine if NB had retained routes like the 131 & 213 ! In a parallel universe Kingston Bus could have easily expanded and put a dent in AL’s operations.
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