Route 61

[bk10mfe]

Mar 3, 2024 22:29:24 GMT @dillon95 said:

Mar 3, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

Would the 261 benefit from a frequency increase? If so you could cut the 61 back to Locksbottom & extend up to Eltham, with the 161 also being cut back to Eltham. The 208 & 358 also maintain the Orpington-Bromley link, as well as National Rail.

61 not running between Bromley and Orpington wouldn’t be good, it’s heavily used between the two towns. 208 wouldn’t cope on it’s own without the 61. 358 is the much longer 3rd option that’s mainly there to provide a service from Farnborough & Green Street Green to Bromley and Orpington, rather than to get from Orpington to/from Bromley. I’d keep all 3 of those routes as they are along those sections.

Ok I understand now that it’s the Orpington-Chislehurst section that is less used than the Bromley-Orpington Section. Also unrelated to the 61 but I wonder if changes to the R7 & R9 could be done. The R7 I would withdraw between Chislehurst & Orpington Station (but extend the R7 back on the roads it no longer runs on in Chelsfield), then extend the R9 to Chislehurst in place of the R7.

[vjaska]

Mar 3, 2024 22:59:09 GMT bk10mfe said:

Mar 3, 2024 22:29:24 GMT @dillon95 said:

61 not running between Bromley and Orpington wouldn’t be good, it’s heavily used between the two towns. 208 wouldn’t cope on it’s own without the 61. 358 is the much longer 3rd option that’s mainly there to provide a service from Farnborough & Green Street Green to Bromley and Orpington, rather than to get from Orpington to/from Bromley. I’d keep all 3 of those routes as they are along those sections.

Ok I understand now that it’s the Orpington-Chislehurst section that is less used than the Bromley-Orpington Section. Also unrelated to the 61 but I wonder if changes to the R7 & R9 could be done. The R7 I would withdraw between Chislehurst & Orpington Station (but extend the R7 back on the roads it no longer runs on in Chelsfield), then extend the R9 to Chislehurst in place of the R7.

The R9 is designed as a frequent link between Orpington & Ramsden Estate of which it achieves this purpose very well every time I've seen or used it over the years so I see no need to mess with this route - these type of routes usually thrive in towns outside of London and I see no difference here with Orpington. Even ignoring that, the R7 is far less frequent and uses smaller vehicles - not 100% sure on it's routing but these two factors on their own could scupper any realistic chance of extending a every 10 minute service using at least 10.2m vehicles (those are just the allocated vehicles, R9 is cleared for anything currently).

The 61 into Ramsden Estate with the 353 replacing the 61 to Chislehurst would be a better fit IMO with the 353 boosted to every 15 minutes and the 61 boosted to every 12 minutes and providing the Ramsden Estate with a direct link to Bromley North & the big Sainsbury's at Locksbottom - the R7 should be left as is IMO bar the restoration of the lost section at Chelsfield

[bk10mfe]

Mar 3, 2024 23:19:22 GMT vjaska said:

Mar 3, 2024 22:59:09 GMT bk10mfe said:

Ok I understand now that it’s the Orpington-Chislehurst section that is less used than the Bromley-Orpington Section. Also unrelated to the 61 but I wonder if changes to the R7 & R9 could be done. The R7 I would withdraw between Chislehurst & Orpington Station (but extend the R7 back on the roads it no longer runs on in Chelsfield), then extend the R9 to Chislehurst in place of the R7.

The R9 is designed as a frequent link between Orpington & Ramsden Estate of which it achieves this purpose very well every time I've seen or used it over the years so I see no need to mess with this route - these type of routes usually thrive in towns outside of London and I see no difference here with Orpington. Even ignoring that, the R7 is far less frequent and uses smaller vehicles - not 100% sure on it's routing but these two factors on their own could scupper any realistic chance of extending a every 10 minute service using at least 10.2m vehicles (those are just the allocated vehicles, R9 is cleared for anything currently).

The 61 into Ramsden Estate with the 353 replacing the 61 to Chislehurst would be a better fit IMO with the 353 boosted to every 15 minutes and the 61 boosted to every 12 minutes and providing the Ramsden Estate with a direct link to Bromley North & the big Sainsbury's at Locksbottom - the R7 should be left as is IMO bar the restoration of the lost section at Chelsfield

The R7 had reliability issues that meant that something needed to be done with the route otherwise its frequency would need to be reduced however I do think splitting the route into 2 routes would have been better. I would curtail the R7 to only run between Orpington Station-Chelsfield (with the loop at Chelsfield retained), then introduce a new R12 to run between Orpington Walnuts Centre & Chislehurst. I don’t believe that many people from the Chelsfield area went beyond Orpington Station, likewise people from the Bickley & Petts Wood Areas would go beyond Orpington centre.
I do agree with swapping the 61 & 353 termini after Orpington though.

[greenboy]

I thought it was a retrograde step curtailing the 61 at Chislehurst and cutting the Orpington to Eltham link in the process and the Chislehurst end of the route has been very quiet ever since.

One little quirk when the 61 went OPO/OMO in the 70s was that it was withdrawn between Chislehurst and Eltham on Saturdays and replaced by the 227 but continued to Eltham on Monday to Friday and Sundays. I think it was something to do with vehicle availability, I can't remember the exact story behind it.

[buspete]

I would like to see what has happened at Thamesmead happen at the Ramsden Estate with several route options, it hasn’t slipped my mind that a few years back that Thamesmead only had 2 bus routes also.

The R9 does what is says on the tin and does it well, no real need to replace it but further compliment it. The only issue is that there is no real reason to go to Orpington, not really much there, Bromley is more of an attractive destination and would be more attractive if it could be completed on a one seat ride.

[Deleted]

Mar 5, 2024 1:42:35 GMT buspete said:

I would like to see what has happened at Thamesmead happen at the Ramsden Estate with several route options, it hasn’t slipped my mind that a few years back that Thamesmead only had 2 bus routes also.

The R9 does what is says on the tin and does it well, no real need to replace it but further compliment it. The only issue is that there is no real reason to go to Orpington, not really much there, Bromley is more of an attractive destination and would be more attractive if it could be completed on a one seat ride.

Well if you live on the Ramsden Estate, Orpington is your local shops and Bromley is more of a day out.

[vjaska]

Mar 5, 2024 10:50:41 GMT @dillon95 said:

Mar 5, 2024 1:42:35 GMT buspete said:

I would like to see what has happened at Thamesmead happen at the Ramsden Estate with several route options, it hasn’t slipped my mind that a few years back that Thamesmead only had 2 bus routes also.

The R9 does what is says on the tin and does it well, no real need to replace it but further compliment it. The only issue is that there is no real reason to go to Orpington, not really much there, Bromley is more of an attractive destination and would be more attractive if it could be completed on a one seat ride.

Well if you live on the Ramsden Estate, Orpington is your local shops and Bromley is more of a day out.

Orpington also has train links to Central London and the seaside

[Deleted]

Mar 5, 2024 12:48:49 GMT vjaska said:

Mar 5, 2024 10:50:41 GMT @dillon95 said:

Well if you live on the Ramsden Estate, Orpington is your local shops and Bromley is more of a day out.

Orpington also has train links to Central London and the seaside

Yes as well as Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells for days to nice pleasant places.

[buspete]

I'm well aware of the benefits of going to Orpington and the connections at Orpington Station. There is nothing really anymore in Orpington High Street, you are better off a bus going to the Cray industrial estate where there are better shopping options.

I would like to see a direct bus route between Bromley to Ramsden Estate, this can replace the R9 or co-exist with the R9.

[danorak]

Mar 5, 2024 18:57:57 GMT buspete said:

I'm well aware of the benefits of going to Orpington and the connections at Orpington Station. There is nothing really anymore in Orpington High Street, you are better off a bus going to the Cray industrial estate where there are better shopping options.

I would like to see a direct bus route between Bromley to Ramsden Estate, this can replace the R9 or co-exist with the R9.

True, most of the major shops have vacated and the Walnuts Centre is a shadow of its former self. Bromley is a popular destination from Orpington: swapping the 61 and 353 over seems a sensible idea to me.

[Deleted]

Mar 5, 2024 22:00:25 GMT danorak said:

Mar 5, 2024 18:57:57 GMT buspete said:

I'm well aware of the benefits of going to Orpington and the connections at Orpington Station. There is nothing really anymore in Orpington High Street, you are better off a bus going to the Cray industrial estate where there are better shopping options.

I would like to see a direct bus route between Bromley to Ramsden Estate, this can replace the R9 or co-exist with the R9.

True, most of the major shops have vacated and the Walnuts Centre is a shadow of its former self. Bromley is a popular destination from Orpington: swapping the 61 and 353 over seems a sensible idea to me.

I guess most people go into Orpington for food shopping in the giant Tesco or the Sainsbury’s. It was never more than just a local high street though that could compete with Bromley.

[buspete]

Couldn’t the route 208 terminate in the Ramsden Estate? It seems a simple extention if you run the route the way the 353 goes to the Ramsden Estate, just several more bus stops?

[vjaska]

Mar 7, 2024 1:49:38 GMT buspete said:

Couldn’t the route 208 terminate in the Ramsden Estate? It seems a simple extention if you run the route the way the 353 goes to the Ramsden Estate, just several more bus stops?

I imagine it could and I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself will say but unlike the 61, it's faces a lot more challenges along the way and if the 208 replaced the 353, the direct link as far as Locksbottom from Ramsden Estate would be lost (the R4 does link these two places but only serves the top part of the Ramsden Estate and whilst matches the same frequency as the 353 currently, it would be less frequent than a diverted 61)

[greenboy]

Mar 7, 2024 1:49:38 GMT buspete said:

Couldn’t the route 208 terminate in the Ramsden Estate? It seems a simple extention if you run the route the way the 353 goes to the Ramsden Estate, just several more bus stops?

It could do although the link to the PRU would be lost.

[buspete]

The current R9 comes from the old London & Country bus route 493 which run every 20 minutes it generally did the same route as the R9 except one bus an hour went to Chelsfield Station/Green St Green this was replaced by the R3 which is currently the R1. So why am I mentioning this? No bus in those days terminated in the Ramsden Estate, in those days buses took cash and there is/was problematic areas in the Ramsden Estate with crime, buses with cash would’ve been a target. The same could be said of the old 272 in Thamesmead, it run from Woolwich to Woolwich doing a circular route round Thamesmead. So maybe the current R9 is a throwback to the old days. Now buses are cash free, the situation is different.

I would be happy for the Ramsden Estate to have the R4, R9, 353 to maintain a link to the Pru, as I’m sure that this is a popular link, with workers, and would be happy to have the 208.

On a side note there is plenty of land in the Ramsden area prime for redevelopment, which is advantage for bus route development.