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Post by buspete on Mar 2, 2024 1:19:49 GMT
So why was this bus route split over 30 years ago and terminated at Chistlehurst? I could see no issues with the route running to Eltham, which it did successfully for many years.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 2, 2024 1:47:55 GMT
So why was this bus route split over 30 years ago and terminated at Chistlehurst? I could see no issues with the route running to Eltham, which it did successfully for many years. - scroll to 1986 and there is a poster that says the change was down to reliability - one particular sentence reads, "splitting the 61 into two routes should make this long service more reliable for passengers". It also got a double deck and frequency increase at the same time |
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Post by buspete on Mar 3, 2024 0:43:02 GMT
Okay that is interesting.
The route that replaces the 61 as a such is the route 160 which is long and can get held up on the South Circular? Also the 61B gave a big frequency cut to every half hour. I would have split the Bromley North to Orpington and have that as a separate bus route, also extending that bus route to Ramsden Estate.
FWIW The bus structure today is better with the 286 rather than the old combined 233 & 228/328.
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Post by rugbyref on Mar 3, 2024 11:03:35 GMT
I can confirm it was unreliable in 1985.
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 16:42:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2024 16:42:47 GMT
Okay that is interesting. The route that replaces the 61 as a such is the route 160 which is long and can get held up on the South Circular? Also the 61B gave a big frequency cut to every half hour. I would have split the Bromley North to Orpington and have that as a separate bus route, also extending that bus route to Ramsden Estate. FWIW The bus structure today is better with the 286 rather than the old combined 233 & 228/328. I would as well, so that Eltham and Orpington could have a link that’s quite an obvious missing link. One route would be.. Bromley North Station Bromley, Town Centre Bromley South Station Bromley Common, The Crown Bromley Common, Bus Garage Locksbottom Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Ramaden Estate Then the other route would be this in place of the Chislehurst-Mottingham-Eltham section of the 161. Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Poverest St Paul’s Cray Common Chislehurst, War Memorial Chislehurst, Sainsbury’s Mottingham Mottingham Station Eltham, Church Eltham Station |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 3, 2024 17:09:40 GMT
Okay that is interesting. The route that replaces the 61 as a such is the route 160 which is long and can get held up on the South Circular? Also the 61B gave a big frequency cut to every half hour. I would have split the Bromley North to Orpington and have that as a separate bus route, also extending that bus route to Ramsden Estate. FWIW The bus structure today is better with the 286 rather than the old combined 233 & 228/328. I would as well, so that Eltham and Orpington could have a link that’s quite an obvious missing link. One route would be.. Bromley North Station Bromley, Town Centre Bromley South Station Bromley Common, The Crown Bromley Common, Bus Garage Locksbottom Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Ramaden Estate Then the other route would be this in place of the Chislehurst-Mottingham-Eltham section of the 161. Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Poverest St Paul’s Cray Common Chislehurst, War Memorial Chislehurst, Sainsbury’s Mottingham Mottingham Station Eltham, Church Eltham Station I do think the 61 from Bromley North to Ramsden Estate and the 161 North Greenwich to Orpington both taking the stand space of the R9. Only issue would be the 161 is a quite a bit more frequent then the 61 and from what iv heard and seen myself the 61 every 15 mins with DDs is already in excess of demand along there. |
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 17:29:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2024 17:29:07 GMT
I would as well, so that Eltham and Orpington could have a link that’s quite an obvious missing link. One route would be.. Bromley North Station Bromley, Town Centre Bromley South Station Bromley Common, The Crown Bromley Common, Bus Garage Locksbottom Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Ramaden Estate Then the other route would be this in place of the Chislehurst-Mottingham-Eltham section of the 161. Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Poverest St Paul’s Cray Common Chislehurst, War Memorial Chislehurst, Sainsbury’s Mottingham Mottingham Station Eltham, Church Eltham Station I do think the 61 from Bromley North to Ramsden Estate and the 161 North Greenwich to Orpington both taking the stand space of the R9. Only issue would be the 161 is a quite a bit more frequent then the 61 and from what iv heard and seen myself the 61 every 15 mins with DDs is already in excess of demand along there. The Orpington-Chislehurst corridor is quiet. But then again the loadings might be better if it was carrying people from Orpington to Eltham as there’s more there than Chislehurst in terms of employment etc. Then again does Orpington really need 2 buses to Woolwich? 51 and the 161? I prefer the idea of a single decker running every 20 minutes between Orpington-Chislehurst-Mottingham-Eltham, and splitting the 161 and terminating it at Eltham as well. So the 161 would be Eltham-Shooters Hill-Woolwich-Charlton-North Greenwich. It could use either the 126 stand in Eltham High Street or the 124 stand at Southend Crescent, with which ever one it takes being re-routed to terminate at Eltham Station where there is lots of space waiting to be used. |
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 17:31:11 GMT
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Post by vjaska on Mar 3, 2024 17:31:11 GMT
I would as well, so that Eltham and Orpington could have a link that’s quite an obvious missing link. One route would be.. Bromley North Station Bromley, Town Centre Bromley South Station Bromley Common, The Crown Bromley Common, Bus Garage Locksbottom Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Ramaden Estate Then the other route would be this in place of the Chislehurst-Mottingham-Eltham section of the 161. Orpington Station Orpington, High Street Poverest St Paul’s Cray Common Chislehurst, War Memorial Chislehurst, Sainsbury’s Mottingham Mottingham Station Eltham, Church Eltham Station I do think the 61 from Bromley North to Ramsden Estate and the 161 North Greenwich to Orpington both taking the stand space of the R9. Only issue would be the 161 is a quite a bit more frequent then the 61 and from what iv heard and seen myself the 61 every 15 mins with DDs is already in excess of demand along there. The R9 should remain regardless IMO - I don’t think Orpington should lose a route that not only is well used by locals (it’s always busy anytime I’ve been up there) but is reliable as a result of its short nature. These sort of routes are common outside London and usually are ones that thrive. In any event, the 61 could replace the 353 into Ramsden Estate instead leaving the R9 to continue as it is |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 3, 2024 17:35:56 GMT
I do think the 61 from Bromley North to Ramsden Estate and the 161 North Greenwich to Orpington both taking the stand space of the R9. Only issue would be the 161 is a quite a bit more frequent then the 61 and from what iv heard and seen myself the 61 every 15 mins with DDs is already in excess of demand along there. The R9 should remain regardless IMO - I don’t think Orpington should lose a route that not only is well used by locals (it’s always busy anytime I’ve been up there) but is reliable as a result of its short nature. These sort of routes are common outside London and usually are ones that thrive. In any event, the 61 could replace the 353 into Ramsden Estate instead leaving the R9 to continue as it is In that case the 353 could run up to Gordon Arms replacing the 61 with the 61 becoming Ramsden Estate to Bromley which would also maintain the link from the estate to PRH aswell as PRH to Chislehurst. |
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Post by wirewiper on Mar 3, 2024 17:39:07 GMT
So why was this bus route split over 30 years ago and terminated at Chistlehurst? I could see no issues with the route running to Eltham, which it did successfully for many years. The 61 was one of the first London bus routes to be put out to tender, its shortening in 1986 coincided with its transfer to Metrobus which at that time was very much an independent company. The shortening may have helped to make the route easier to transfer to another operator. It also gained a frequency increase which was certainly justified on the Bromley-Orpington section, maybe less so between Orpington and Chislehurst. I note the 61B was short-lived and interworked with the 228 at Chislehurst, fortunately sense prevailed and the two routes became the circular 228A/228C. |
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 17:40:23 GMT
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Post by vjaska on Mar 3, 2024 17:40:23 GMT
The R9 should remain regardless IMO - I don’t think Orpington should lose a route that not only is well used by locals (it’s always busy anytime I’ve been up there) but is reliable as a result of its short nature. These sort of routes are common outside London and usually are ones that thrive. In any event, the 61 could replace the 353 into Ramsden Estate instead leaving the R9 to continue as it is In that case the 353 could run up to Gordon Arms replacing the 61 with the 61 becoming Ramsden Estate to Bromley which would also maintain the link from the estate to PRH aswell as PRH to Chislehurst. TBH, that sounds like a good idea, to me anyway |
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Post by danorak on Mar 3, 2024 19:42:31 GMT
London Bus Magazine no 54 is your friend for background to the Orpington changes.
The original intention was to split the 61 in Orpington. However, this went down badly at the Petts Wood end of Orpington so the route continued to run as far as Chislehurst. Demand on the Eltham - Chislehurst section was falling but the Bromley end was getting busier and was also expected to absorb some demand from the shortened 261. Few people north of Chislehurst would have used it to Bromley: the old B1 gave a more direct service from north of Green Lane and the 227 gave a connection from Chislehurst.
The 61B was interworked with the 228 and I believe it was local initiative by drivers at Sidcup that brought about an almost immediate formal combination into the 228A/C.
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 19:49:46 GMT
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 3, 2024 19:49:46 GMT
London Bus Magazine no 54 is your friend for background to the Orpington changes. The original intention was to split the 61 in Orpington. However, this went down badly at the Petts Wood end of Orpington so the route continued to run as far as Chislehurst. Demand on the Eltham - Chislehurst section was falling but the Bromley end was getting busier and was also expected to absorb some demand from the shortened 261. Few people north of Chislehurst would have used it to Bromley: the old B1 gave a more direct service from north of Green Lane and the 227 gave a connection from Chislehurst. The 61B was interworked with the 228 and I believe it was local initiative by drivers at Sidcup that brought about an almost immediate formal combination into the 228A/C. Had the route been split at Orpington it would very likely have been extended up to Catford/Lewisham in order to remove the overlapping sections of the 208 and changes to the 1 etc. |
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Route 61
Mar 3, 2024 22:02:37 GMT
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Post by bk10mfe on Mar 3, 2024 22:02:37 GMT
Would the 261 benefit from a frequency increase? If so you could cut the 61 back to Locksbottom & extend up to Eltham, with the 161 also being cut back to Eltham. The 208 & 358 also maintain the Orpington-Bromley link, as well as National Rail.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2024 22:29:24 GMT
Would the 261 benefit from a frequency increase? If so you could cut the 61 back to Locksbottom & extend up to Eltham, with the 161 also being cut back to Eltham. The 208 & 358 also maintain the Orpington-Bromley link, as well as National Rail. 61 not running between Bromley and Orpington wouldn’t be good, it’s heavily used between the two towns. 208 wouldn’t cope on it’s own without the 61. 358 is the much longer 3rd option that’s mainly there to provide a service from Farnborough & Green Street Green to Bromley and Orpington, rather than to get from Orpington to/from Bromley. I’d keep all 3 of those routes as they are along those sections. |
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