Nunhead, Brockley and Forest Hill area routes

[evergreenadam]

This area fascinates me as quite a few routes terminate short of any real traffic destination, the area between Peckham and Brockley seems quite cut off and a lot of routes seem to avoid serving Forest Hill. I wonder if there are a lot of car journeys in this area because bus services don’t go to all the places that local residents want to go to.

The P12 serves a large area of Nunhead and Honor Oak and then terminates rather abruptly at Brockley Rise but wouldn’t it be better if it continued somewhere more useful? Lewisham would duplicate existing routes but what about Catford, Forest Hill or Bell Green Sainsbury’s?

The 63 terminates at Honor Oak and there are often requests for it to extended to Brockley Rise to provide a link up the hill to the Overground Station at Honor Oak Park. Such requests have been refused by TfL as being too expensive which is perhaps understandable given the high frequency of the 63, but it still seems a missing link.

The 343 loops around a big area of Peckham Rye and Avignon/Pepys Road before terminating at New Cross Bus Garage. Whilst there is potential for interchange to other routes, surely there must be demand for a through service to somewhere? New Cross Gate Sainsburys or Deptford or Greenwich? I know the 343 is probably long enough already but the principle of it terminating at the bus garage seems a little old fashioned.

The 172 stops short of Forest Hill at Brockley Rise.

The P4 avoids serving Forest Hill.

Three routes (194, 352 and 450) from the south avoid Forest Hill and have been routed into Bell Green Sainsburys.

There are no direct links between:
Forest Hill and Beckenham;
Forest Hill/Brockley/Nunhead and Greenwich;
Catford and Streatham/Brixton via Forest Hill along the South Circular.

Would anyone with local knowledge have any suggestions?

[greenboy]

Apr 15, 2024 16:13:02 GMT evergreenadam said:

This area fascinates me as quite a few routes terminate short of any real traffic destination, the area between Peckham and Brockley seems quite cut off and a lot of routes seem to avoid serving Forest Hill. I wonder if there are a lot of car journeys in this area because bus services don’t go to all the places that local residents want to go to.

The P12 serves a large area of Nunhead and Honor Oak and then terminates rather abruptly at Brockley Rise but wouldn’t it be better if it continued somewhere more useful? Lewisham would duplicate existing routes but what about Catford, Forest Hill or Bell Green Sainsbury’s?

The 63 terminates at Honor Oak and there are often requests for it to extended to Brockley Rise to provide a link up the hill to the Overground Station at Honor Oak Park. Such requests have been refused by TfL as being too expensive which is perhaps understandable given the high frequency of the 63, but it still seems a missing link.

The 343 loops around a big area of Peckham Rye and Avignon/Pepys Road before terminating at New Cross Bus Garage. Whilst there is potential for interchange to other routes, surely there must be demand for a through service to somewhere? New Cross Gate Sainsburys or Deptford or Greenwich? I know the 343 is probably long enough already but the principle of it terminating at the bus garage seems a little old fashioned.

The 172 stops short of Forest Hill at Brockley Rise.

The P4 avoids serving Forest Hill.

Three routes (194, 352 and 450) from the south avoid Forest Hill and have been routed into Bell Green Sainsburys.

There are no direct links between:
Forest Hill and Beckenham;
Forest Hill/Brockley/Nunhead and Greenwich;
Catford and Streatham/Brixton via Forest Hill along the South Circular.

Would anyone with local knowledge have any suggestions?

I think I've suggested before that if the 40 was curtailed at Elephant & Castle, could be replaced by the 45 or maybe the 63 is adequate, it could be extended to Forest Hill and to Lower Sydenham via Perry Vale and then take over the current 194 route to Beckenham and possibly even take over the 162 to Bromley although stand space would be a problem. If the 356 was withdrawn as a result, strange little route really that doesn't serve any major town centres, the P12 could be extended to Forest Hill and Sydenham Hill. The 194 could probably be curtailed at Elmers End Green or the station, the 358 does the same job to Penge.

It's always seemed a bit of an oddity to me how the P4 effectively bypasses Forest Hill.

I can't see why the 63 couldn't be extended to Brockley Rise, although the frequency is a bit excessive it's only a short distance but it would make the purpose built U turn facility redundant.

The 354 could be extended from Penge to Lower Sydenham Sainsburys replacing the 356 and be rerouted via Marlow/Wheathill Road.

[Catford94]

Not sure really.

Historically, the east-west links have never been great. Today's 122 between Lewisham and Crystal Palace is long established - originally the 49, then 94 then 186 then 122; the New Cross - Brockley - Catford link was tram 74 then bus 141, the other tram link was New Cross - Brockley - Forest Hill, more recently the 171 before it got diverted via Catford. The 185 was also originally one of a few tram services that followed the Catford - Forest Hill - Dulwich corridor.

The 172 did have a brief spell of extending south to Bromley in the early 90s, but not sure there was that much demand for travel between Bromley and Brockley.

The P4, P12, and 484 are all comparatively recent - the 484 has its roots in a small network of shopping services that Lewisham Council funded in the run up to Christmas some years, which eventually turned in to part of the midibus network from Catford Garage in the late 80s.

I can see what you mean about the P4, but the main point of the P4 (similar to the 'back road' 3xx routes in more recent years) was to provide a service along Honor Oak Road / Honor Oak Park rather than to provide longer distance strategic links. There are people out there who just can't walk half a mile or more to get a 'main road' bus service. Although the inconvenience factor of needing to change buses (to get to a key destination) tends to be underestimated especially for people who are elderly / infirm, disabled, or travelling with small children.

Congestion on the south circular can't help the case for more east-west routes (although arguably that congestion could be taken as an argument that there might be demand), and there are - or have been - a few low railway bridges, or weak railway bridges, that have been an obstacle. I also understood it took some argument to get the Dulwich estate to allow even the 16 seater buses that the P4 started with to operate the route, and they won't allow double deckers. Another issue is that while routes from the west terminating in Catford town centre might be a good thing, there isn't anywhere for them to stand unless they continue through to Lewisham or to Catford Garage. There is however a stand in Forest Hill that's only used as a short turn now, so extending something to Forest Hill ought to be practical.

It's all a bit chicken and egg - you can argue that there's never been the demand between some points, or that historically people people from this area don't go shopping in that town centre, but if there's never been an adequate bus link, then people won't do it, or at least not by bus. Lewisham has grown as a shopping centre as other town centres (including Catford, Deptford) have shrunk gradually since the 1970s, and people move house / area more than used to be the case, so people may still travel to Lewisham from 'non traditional' catchment areas. Just how you predict this isn't entirely easy, and there's always the difficulty that people will say 'yes' if they are asked if they want a bus service, but whether they will actually use it can be a different thing.

And TFL are probably not inclined to put new speculative services on at the moment. And taking a bus service away from some people to give others a service is rarely politically acceptable - the ones who lose out will be the ones on the front page of the 'south london' and the ones making a fuss at their councillor / GLA member / MP...

[greenboy]

Apr 15, 2024 20:41:01 GMT Catford94 said:

Not sure really.

Historically, the east-west links have never been great. Today's 122 between Lewisham and Crystal Palace is long established - originally the 49, then 94 then 186 then 122; the New Cross - Brockley - Catford link was tram 74 then bus 141, the other tram link was New Cross - Brockley - Forest Hill, more recently the 171 before it got diverted via Catford. The 185 was also originally one of a few tram services that followed the Catford - Forest Hill - Dulwich corridor.

The 172 did have a brief spell of extending south to Bromley in the early 90s, but not sure there was that much demand for travel between Bromley and Brockley.

The P4, P12, and 484 are all comparatively recent - the 484 has its roots in a small network of shopping services that Lewisham Council funded in the run up to Christmas some years, which eventually turned in to part of the midibus network from Catford Garage in the late 80s.

I can see what you mean about the P4, but the main point of the P4 (similar to the 'back road' 3xx routes in more recent years) was to provide a service along Honor Oak Road / Honor Oak Park rather than to provide longer distance strategic links. There are people out there who just can't walk half a mile or more to get a 'main road' bus service. Although the inconvenience factor of needing to change buses (to get to a key destination) tends to be underestimated especially for people who are elderly / infirm, disabled, or travelling with small children.

Congestion on the south circular can't help the case for more east-west routes (although arguably that congestion could be taken as an argument that there might be demand), and there are - or have been - a few low railway bridges, or weak railway bridges, that have been an obstacle. I also understood it took some argument to get the Dulwich estate to allow even the 16 seater buses that the P4 started with to operate the route, and they won't allow double deckers. Another issue is that while routes from the west terminating in Catford town centre might be a good thing, there isn't anywhere for them to stand unless they continue through to Lewisham or to Catford Garage. There is however a stand in Forest Hill that's only used as a short turn now, so extending something to Forest Hill ought to be practical.

It's all a bit chicken and egg - you can argue that there's never been the demand between some points, or that historically people people from this area don't go shopping in that town centre, but if there's never been an adequate bus link, then people won't do it, or at least not by bus. Lewisham has grown as a shopping centre as other town centres (including Catford, Deptford) have shrunk gradually since the 1970s, and people move house / area more than used to be the case, so people may still travel to Lewisham from 'non traditional' catchment areas. Just how you predict this isn't entirely easy, and there's always the difficulty that people will say 'yes' if they are asked if they want a bus service, but whether they will actually use it can be a different thing.

And TFL are probably not inclined to put new speculative services on at the moment. And taking a bus service away from some people to give others a service is rarely politically acceptable - the ones who lose out will be the ones on the front page of the 'south london' and the ones making a fuss at their councillor / GLA member / MP...

From what I can remember the 172 to Bromley was quite popular, Saturday shopping hours only if I remember correctly and it went to Grove Park Monday to Friday?

Wasn't the 484 pretty much a direct replacement for the old 184?

[vjaska]

Apr 15, 2024 16:13:02 GMT evergreenadam said:

This area fascinates me as quite a few routes terminate short of any real traffic destination, the area between Peckham and Brockley seems quite cut off and a lot of routes seem to avoid serving Forest Hill. I wonder if there are a lot of car journeys in this area because bus services don’t go to all the places that local residents want to go to.

The P12 serves a large area of Nunhead and Honor Oak and then terminates rather abruptly at Brockley Rise but wouldn’t it be better if it continued somewhere more useful? Lewisham would duplicate existing routes but what about Catford, Forest Hill or Bell Green Sainsbury’s?

The 63 terminates at Honor Oak and there are often requests for it to extended to Brockley Rise to provide a link up the hill to the Overground Station at Honor Oak Park. Such requests have been refused by TfL as being too expensive which is perhaps understandable given the high frequency of the 63, but it still seems a missing link.

The 343 loops around a big area of Peckham Rye and Avignon/Pepys Road before terminating at New Cross Bus Garage. Whilst there is potential for interchange to other routes, surely there must be demand for a through service to somewhere? New Cross Gate Sainsburys or Deptford or Greenwich? I know the 343 is probably long enough already but the principle of it terminating at the bus garage seems a little old fashioned.

The 172 stops short of Forest Hill at Brockley Rise.

The P4 avoids serving Forest Hill.

Three routes (194, 352 and 450) from the south avoid Forest Hill and have been routed into Bell Green Sainsburys.

There are no direct links between:
Forest Hill and Beckenham;
Forest Hill/Brockley/Nunhead and Greenwich;
Catford and Streatham/Brixton via Forest Hill along the South Circular.

Would anyone with local knowledge have any suggestions?

I'm not as local but I'm glad the P4 runs that way rather than running through Forest Hill, it has enough trouble trying to run a reliable service in it's current form without having to use even more of the A205 plus the P4 loads very well between the Horniman & Brockley Rise. The P4 did use to run via Court Lane rather than College Road during Kentish Bus days but the installation of speed humps saw it re-routed - this routing would remove it from Dulwich Common which, whilst has some usage from the two stops closest to Lordship Lane, would greatly help with reliability however Southwark have blocked the northern end of with planters so isn't possible to do nowadays

It would be nice to have a link from Brixton to Catford (terminating at Catford Garage or Downham preferably) where I'm convinced there would be demand but the biggest issue would be trying to maintain a reliable service along the A205 as the route would spend over 80% of it's time on that road. A minor issue would be not overbussing the Brixton to Tulse Hill corridor (as you wouldn't want to access the A205 from Brixton Hill because Christchurch Road is even more horrendous to navigate post LTN implementation) but the route would have to be single decker due to Thurlow Park Road's notorious low bridge so might just be acceptable.

[danorak]

I suspect a lot of this is rooted in the mix of tram withdrawal, some large open spaces and the time when the estates in the area were built.

The main Nunhead/Brockley service was the tram replacement 184 for many years. It wasn't until the 80s that it reached New Cross and that involved a battle with Telegraph Hill residents. It ran to Lewisham for a while in the early 90s I think but it wasn't a great performer. There was even a couple of weeks between the Lewisham service being withdrawn and its replacement being introduced which suggests it was nice to have rather than essential.

The link to Brockley Rise on the P12 is relatively recent too: Nunhead was served by self contained circulars such as the 243, 173, P3, 70A and original P12. So it's much better than it was but there is probably scope to go further.

[vjaska]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Nunhead had a night service for 10 years between 1989 & 1999, firstly in the form of select journeys on the N12 which ran over a combination of the current 343, 484 & P12 routings in Brockley & Nunhead using T's (N12 had 3 at night, did 2 go to Dulwich, Plough with one doing the Nunhead & Brockley loop before terminating at PM?) and then from 1993 till 1999, those journeys were replaced by the new N84 using a single T on weeknights (so probably answers my question regarding N12) with 2 T's at weekends between Nunhead & Oxford Circus, and from 1997, the addition of Victoria meal relief journeys. In 1999, the Nunhead loop was removed (as was the Oxford Circus to Trafalgar Square section) and the route was restructured more or less into today's N343 before receiving that number in 2001.

[bk10mfe]

Apr 15, 2024 23:34:24 GMT vjaska said:

Apr 15, 2024 16:13:02 GMT evergreenadam said:

This area fascinates me as quite a few routes terminate short of any real traffic destination, the area between Peckham and Brockley seems quite cut off and a lot of routes seem to avoid serving Forest Hill. I wonder if there are a lot of car journeys in this area because bus services don’t go to all the places that local residents want to go to.

The P12 serves a large area of Nunhead and Honor Oak and then terminates rather abruptly at Brockley Rise but wouldn’t it be better if it continued somewhere more useful? Lewisham would duplicate existing routes but what about Catford, Forest Hill or Bell Green Sainsbury’s?

The 63 terminates at Honor Oak and there are often requests for it to extended to Brockley Rise to provide a link up the hill to the Overground Station at Honor Oak Park. Such requests have been refused by TfL as being too expensive which is perhaps understandable given the high frequency of the 63, but it still seems a missing link.

The 343 loops around a big area of Peckham Rye and Avignon/Pepys Road before terminating at New Cross Bus Garage. Whilst there is potential for interchange to other routes, surely there must be demand for a through service to somewhere? New Cross Gate Sainsburys or Deptford or Greenwich? I know the 343 is probably long enough already but the principle of it terminating at the bus garage seems a little old fashioned.

The 172 stops short of Forest Hill at Brockley Rise.

The P4 avoids serving Forest Hill.

Three routes (194, 352 and 450) from the south avoid Forest Hill and have been routed into Bell Green Sainsburys.

There are no direct links between:
Forest Hill and Beckenham;
Forest Hill/Brockley/Nunhead and Greenwich;
Catford and Streatham/Brixton via Forest Hill along the South Circular.

Would anyone with local knowledge have any suggestions?

I'm not as local but I'm glad the P4 runs that way rather than running through Forest Hill, it has enough trouble trying to run a reliable service in it's current form without having to use even more of the A205 plus the P4 loads very well between the Horniman & Brockley Rise. The P4 did use to run via Court Lane rather than College Road during Kentish Bus days but the installation of speed humps saw it re-routed - this routing would remove it from Dulwich Common which, whilst has some usage from the two stops closest to Lordship Lane, would greatly help with reliability however Southwark have blocked the northern end of with planters so isn't possible to do nowadays

It would be nice to have a link from Brixton to Catford (terminating at Catford Garage or Downham preferably) where I'm convinced there would be demand but the biggest issue would be trying to maintain a reliable service along the A205 as the route would spend over 80% of it's time on that road. A minor issue would be not overbussing the Brixton to Tulse Hill corridor (as you wouldn't want to access the A205 from Brixton Hill because Christchurch Road is even more horrendous to navigate post LTN implementation) but the route would have to be single decker due to Thurlow Park Road's notorious low bridge so might just be acceptable.

I think a Streatham to Catford route could be interesting & is something I have considered. I would have it run via the P13 to Lordship Lane then the 185 to Catford. The P13 would be cut back to Tulse Hill, with this new route replacing it on the Streatham-Tulse Hill section at a higher frequency: 5bph or even 6bph or more if there is a larger demand for this new route.

[vjaska]

Apr 16, 2024 21:08:53 GMT bk10mfe said:

Apr 15, 2024 23:34:24 GMT vjaska said:

I'm not as local but I'm glad the P4 runs that way rather than running through Forest Hill, it has enough trouble trying to run a reliable service in it's current form without having to use even more of the A205 plus the P4 loads very well between the Horniman & Brockley Rise. The P4 did use to run via Court Lane rather than College Road during Kentish Bus days but the installation of speed humps saw it re-routed - this routing would remove it from Dulwich Common which, whilst has some usage from the two stops closest to Lordship Lane, would greatly help with reliability however Southwark have blocked the northern end of with planters so isn't possible to do nowadays

It would be nice to have a link from Brixton to Catford (terminating at Catford Garage or Downham preferably) where I'm convinced there would be demand but the biggest issue would be trying to maintain a reliable service along the A205 as the route would spend over 80% of it's time on that road. A minor issue would be not overbussing the Brixton to Tulse Hill corridor (as you wouldn't want to access the A205 from Brixton Hill because Christchurch Road is even more horrendous to navigate post LTN implementation) but the route would have to be single decker due to Thurlow Park Road's notorious low bridge so might just be acceptable.

I think a Streatham to Catford route could be interesting & is something I have considered. I would have it run via the P13 to Lordship Lane then the 185 to Catford. The P13 would be cut back to Tulse Hill, with this new route replacing it on the Streatham-Tulse Hill section at a higher frequency: 5bph or even 6bph or more if there is a larger demand for this new route.

I don't think this new route could replace the P13 over that section as then current P13 passengers between Streatham & Lordship Lane would end up with a less reliable service than present due to the volatile nature of the A205 and the fact the new route would use more of it. The P13 has to stay regardless of the scenario.

[bk10mfe]

Apr 16, 2024 22:31:07 GMT vjaska said:

Apr 16, 2024 21:08:53 GMT bk10mfe said:

I think a Streatham to Catford route could be interesting & is something I have considered. I would have it run via the P13 to Lordship Lane then the 185 to Catford. The P13 would be cut back to Tulse Hill, with this new route replacing it on the Streatham-Tulse Hill section at a higher frequency: 5bph or even 6bph or more if there is a larger demand for this new route.

I don't think this new route could replace the P13 over that section as then current P13 passengers between Streatham & Lordship Lane would end up with a less reliable service than present due to the volatile nature of the A205 and the fact the new route would use more of it. The P13 has to stay regardless of the scenario.

Doesn’t the P13 run into separate traffic hotspots along its route? Particularly at Goose Green & Peckham. There might also be the option to send the new route via the P4 to Lewisham, which is also a busy town centre where there could be demand & would now avoid going through Forest Hill. The P4 would not change despite the fact that it would parallel the new route between Dulwich & Lewisham, because of how unreliable the route already is.

[vjaska]

Apr 17, 2024 11:37:09 GMT bk10mfe said:

Apr 16, 2024 22:31:07 GMT vjaska said:

I don't think this new route could replace the P13 over that section as then current P13 passengers between Streatham & Lordship Lane would end up with a less reliable service than present due to the volatile nature of the A205 and the fact the new route would use more of it. The P13 has to stay regardless of the scenario.

Doesn’t the P13 run into separate traffic hotspots along its route? Particularly at Goose Green & Peckham. There might also be the option to send the new route via the P4 to Lewisham, which is also a busy town centre where there could be demand & would now avoid going through Forest Hill. The P4 would not change despite the fact that it would parallel the new route between Dulwich & Lewisham, because of how unreliable the route already is.

Goose Green isn't really an issue - the biggest issues the P13 face is the A205 & Streatham, especially when the LTN gets reactivated. The small bit of Christchurch Road it uses can also cause issues at times due to another LTN. So add those on to the A205 plus Catford itself and the P13 suddenly looks a lot easier to run especially when majority of the P13 is via back roads.

Streatham to Catford could be achieved as part of a Streatham to Lewisham route via Crystal Palace, would save having to introduce two routes for starters. Brixton to Catford is easier to implement than from Streatham via the A205 but would still run into issues, particularly around running it via Tulse Hill as you wouldn't run it via Herne Hill or Brixton Hill.

[overgroundcommuter]

Some of you may remember the 115 in the 90s was extended to Forest Hill, which was the first attempt of connecting Forest Hill and the eastern end of Lordship Lane to Streatham. It only lasted two years and was cut back to Dulwich College. I remember using it a couple of times and was lightly used.

However one of the positives of the P13 is that it generated passenger usage from the Lordship Lane end of Dulwich Common to Tulse Hill and Streatham which the 115 didn't, thanks to having more connections on the route, plus serving roads that weren't served previously or are too far to walk to the main road to get the main routes. You only have to see how many passengers wait at the Grove Tavern stop on Lordship Lane to see just how well used it is towards Streatham.

[darz]

I literally always think about this , the links in this pocket of South east London are so poor. Sydenham for example feels so hidden and cut off from anything west of Crystal Palace. (450 is more south west from Crystal Palace)

The town centre feels disconnected from anything North of Sydenham, the 176 and 197 barely serve main Sydenham.

Areas like Brockley, Sydenham, Honor Oak , Forest Hill, many parts of Dulwich (excluding East) feel as though they lack a breadth of through links and trunk routes taking locals long distances.

[greenboy]

Apr 17, 2024 15:58:56 GMT darz said:

I literally always think about this , the links in this pocket of South east London are so poor. Sydenham for example feels so hidden and cut off from anything west of Crystal Palace. (450 is more south west from Crystal Palace)

The town centre feels disconnected from anything North of Sydenham, the 176 and 197 barely serve main Sydenham.

Areas like Brockley, Sydenham, Honor Oak , Forest Hill, many parts of Dulwich (excluding East) feel as though they lack a breadth of through links and trunk routes taking locals long distances.

The 176 and 197 has always been a bugbear of mine and I've suggested previously that one of them be rerouted via Lower Sydenham and Perry Vale. I have relatives who used to live just off Lawrie Park Road and they had two routes at the end of the road neither of which served the local shops or went anywhere near Sainsburys, in fact it was easier to do their shopping in Penge or Forest Hill. Likewise staff and visitors to St Christopher's Hospice often had a more difficult journey than they should from Lower Sydenham and it's a very awkward change of buses.

[evergreenadam]

Apr 17, 2024 17:50:37 GMT greenboy said:

Apr 17, 2024 15:58:56 GMT darz said:

I literally always think about this , the links in this pocket of South east London are so poor. Sydenham for example feels so hidden and cut off from anything west of Crystal Palace. (450 is more south west from Crystal Palace)

The town centre feels disconnected from anything North of Sydenham, the 176 and 197 barely serve main Sydenham.

Areas like Brockley, Sydenham, Honor Oak , Forest Hill, many parts of Dulwich (excluding East) feel as though they lack a breadth of through links and trunk routes taking locals long distances.

The 176 and 197 has always been a bugbear of mine and I've suggested previously that one of them be rerouted via Lower Sydenham and Perry Vale. I have relatives who used to live just off Lawrie Park Road and they had two routes at the end of the road neither of which served the local shops or went anywhere near Sainsburys, in fact it was easier to do their shopping in Penge or Forest Hill. Likewise staff and visitors to St Christopher's Hospice often had a more difficult journey than they should from Lower Sydenham and it's a very awkward change of buses.

Which Sainsburys just out of interest? The Bell Green one or the Forest Hill one? I did wonder where people in these areas do their food shopping.