|
|
Post by evergreenadam on Apr 17, 2024 18:24:53 GMT
Some of you may remember the 115 in the 90s was extended to Forest Hill, which was the first attempt of connecting Forest Hill and the eastern end of Lordship Lane to Streatham. It only lasted two years and was cut back to Dulwich College. I remember using it a couple of times and was lightly used. However one of the positives of the P13 is that it generated passenger usage from the Lordship Lane end of Dulwich Common to Tulse Hill and Streatham which the 115 didn't, thanks to having more connections on the route, plus serving roads that weren't served previously or are too far to walk to the main road to get the main routes. You only have to see how many passengers wait at the Grove Tavern stop on Lordship Lane to see just how well used it is towards Streatham. Since the 1990s the demographics in East Dulwich have changed quite a bit, which must have changed the demand profile for bus services in the area. We are always being told how trendy places like Forest Hill and Brockley are now. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Apr 17, 2024 18:29:26 GMT
The 176 and 197 has always been a bugbear of mine and I've suggested previously that one of them be rerouted via Lower Sydenham and Perry Vale. I have relatives who used to live just off Lawrie Park Road and they had two routes at the end of the road neither of which served the local shops or went anywhere near Sainsburys, in fact it was easier to do their shopping in Penge or Forest Hill. Likewise staff and visitors to St Christopher's Hospice often had a more difficult journey than they should from Lower Sydenham and it's a very awkward change of buses. Which Sainsburys just out of interest? The Bell Green one or the Forest Hill one? I did wonder where people in these areas do their food shopping. The Bell Green one would be the preferred option but due to no direct bus it was easier to use the one at Forest Hill or Penge. |
|
|
|
Post by overgroundcommuter on Apr 17, 2024 22:08:46 GMT
If anything, the 194 needs to be reintroduced back to Forest Hill, replacing the 356 between Bell Green and Upper Sydenham as the frequency of the 356 isn't a viable alternative to getting the 176/197 and then changing to the 202 at Cobbs Corner or walking down to Sydenham Road for the 194/450. When I've been to that Sainsbury's and see a 356, I'll run to the bus stop as I don't fancy waiting 20 mins for the next direct bus to FH.
The 356 does get busy between Bell Green and Forest Hill, it could do with a 15 min service rather than 20 which may be a cheaper solution than extending the 194.
|
|
|
|
Post by Catford94 on Apr 17, 2024 22:30:59 GMT
From what I can remember the 172 to Bromley was quite popular, Saturday shopping hours only if I remember correctly and it went to Grove Park Monday to Friday? Wasn't the 484 pretty much a direct replacement for the old 184?
I'd somehow got the idea the 172 to Bromley was Monday - Friday as well, and earlier than 1992 (I was away from London by late 1992, and thought it had been there a year or so earlier when I lived in Brockley. I seem to have remembered wrong.
As for the 484, yes, it replaced a combination of the 184, P2, and the L1 (with knowing the route at the Lewisham end, the L1 was my first thought) although the 184 did get to Lewisham for a while a year or two earlier. |
|
|
|
Post by evergreenadam on Apr 17, 2024 22:43:34 GMT
If anything, the 194 needs to be reintroduced back to Forest Hill, replacing the 356 between Bell Green and Upper Sydenham as the frequency of the 356 isn't a viable alternative to getting the 176/197 and then changing to the 202 at Cobbs Corner or walking down to Sydenham Road for the 194/450. When I've been to that Sainsbury's and see a 356, I'll run to the bus stop as I don't fancy waiting 20 mins for the next direct bus to FH. The 356 does get busy between Bell Green and Forest Hill, it could do with a 15 min service rather than 20 which may be a cheaper solution than extending the 194. The 356 is certainly a strange route. It doesn’t appear that there is a through bus service between Forest Hill and Beckenham at present. I would quite like to see the 352 extended to Forest Hill. |
|
|
|
Post by overgroundcommuter on Apr 17, 2024 22:57:28 GMT
If anything, the 194 needs to be reintroduced back to Forest Hill, replacing the 356 between Bell Green and Upper Sydenham as the frequency of the 356 isn't a viable alternative to getting the 176/197 and then changing to the 202 at Cobbs Corner or walking down to Sydenham Road for the 194/450. When I've been to that Sainsbury's and see a 356, I'll run to the bus stop as I don't fancy waiting 20 mins for the next direct bus to FH. The 356 does get busy between Bell Green and Forest Hill, it could do with a 15 min service rather than 20 which may be a cheaper solution than extending the 194. The 356 is certainly a strange route. It doesn’t appear that there is a through bus service between Forest Hill and Beckenham at present. I would quite like to see the 352 extended to Forest Hill. And when the 352 was a Metrobus rather than LT/TfL service, it ran from Horniman Museum, later Upper Sydenham to Bromley North via Beckenham. When the 352 became a TfL route, some bright spark decided that they'd introduce the 356, giving Forest Hill residents the opportunity to travel to Elmers End and Shirley, via Penge with some of the route duplicated by the 176 and 197 rather than Beckenham and Bromley which requires changing at either Catford or Penge. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Apr 18, 2024 5:21:38 GMT
If anything, the 194 needs to be reintroduced back to Forest Hill, replacing the 356 between Bell Green and Upper Sydenham as the frequency of the 356 isn't a viable alternative to getting the 176/197 and then changing to the 202 at Cobbs Corner or walking down to Sydenham Road for the 194/450. When I've been to that Sainsbury's and see a 356, I'll run to the bus stop as I don't fancy waiting 20 mins for the next direct bus to FH. The 356 does get busy between Bell Green and Forest Hill, it could do with a 15 min service rather than 20 which may be a cheaper solution than extending the 194. The 194 wasn't great when it went to Forest Hill terminating on the wrong side of the railway line and not ideal for the shops and onward connections. The Bell Green to Forest Hill section certainly deserves better than the x20mins 356, ideally a link to Dulwich and beyond. |
|
|
|
Post by chibmaster on Apr 20, 2024 11:38:48 GMT
If anything, the 194 needs to be reintroduced back to Forest Hill, replacing the 356 between Bell Green and Upper Sydenham as the frequency of the 356 isn't a viable alternative to getting the 176/197 and then changing to the 202 at Cobbs Corner or walking down to Sydenham Road for the 194/450. When I've been to that Sainsbury's and see a 356, I'll run to the bus stop as I don't fancy waiting 20 mins for the next direct bus to FH. The 356 does get busy between Bell Green and Forest Hill, it could do with a 15 min service rather than 20 which may be a cheaper solution than extending the 194. The 194 wasn't great when it went to Forest Hill terminating on the wrong side of the railway line and not ideal for the shops and onward connections. The Bell Green to Forest Hill section certainly deserves better than the x20mins 356, ideally a link to Dulwich and beyond. I’ve always suggested that the 40 should be extended to bell green Sainsbury’s from Dulwich library via the 176 to Forest Hill and then the 356 to lower Sydenham. I feel like this will provide useful links between lower Sydenham and central london |
|
|
|
Post by evergreenadam on Apr 20, 2024 12:05:03 GMT
Interestingly one of proposed Superloop routes may serve Forest Hill on the Streatham - Tulse Hill - Lee - Eltham corridor. So that would solve the problem with the current missing orbital link between Streatham and Forest Hill/Catford. I can’t see any other option than routing it via Forest Hill and Catford so not sure why they didn’t put at least one of them on the map.
|
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Apr 20, 2024 13:37:38 GMT
Interestingly one of proposed Superloop routes may serve Forest Hill on the Streatham - Tulse Hill - Lee - Eltham corridor. So that would solve the problem with the current missing orbital link between Streatham and Forest Hill/Catford. I can’t see any other option than routing it via Forest Hill and Catford so not sure why they didn’t put at least one of them on the map. It would be better if it ran via Palace instead as Streatham Hill to Lee is the one of the worst bits of the A205 - all very well implementing this link but it’s no good if it just sits in traffic. The other issue is unless it uses Lancaster Avenue which is only used for diversions, then it will be stuck with single deckers whereas running via Palace, that issue is gone |
|
|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Apr 20, 2024 18:29:15 GMT
I literally always think about this , the links in this pocket of South east London are so poor. Sydenham for example feels so hidden and cut off from anything west of Crystal Palace. (450 is more south west from Crystal Palace) The town centre feels disconnected from anything North of Sydenham, the 176 and 197 barely serve main Sydenham. Areas like Brockley, Sydenham, Honor Oak , Forest Hill, many parts of Dulwich (excluding East) feel as though they lack a breadth of through links and trunk routes taking locals long distances. The 176 and 197 has always been a bugbear of mine and I've suggested previously that one of them be rerouted via Lower Sydenham and Perry Vale. I have relatives who used to live just off Lawrie Park Road and they had two routes at the end of the road neither of which served the local shops or went anywhere near Sainsburys, in fact it was easier to do their shopping in Penge or Forest Hill. Likewise staff and visitors to St Christopher's Hospice often had a more difficult journey than they should from Lower Sydenham and it's a very awkward change of buses. This part of London has a fairly dense network of Sainsbury’s - I don’t think anyone would struggle to reach one nearby on local buses, though I appreciate the SavaCentre is much bigger than any of the others! |
|
|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Apr 20, 2024 19:05:09 GMT
I’ve had deep thoughts about the local network. Local geography makes route planning somewhat awkward and sort of restricts what can practically be done.
The P4 isn’t likely to be touched. There are very established travel patterns on the middle section of the route and pretty much all of the links are freehold. I think sending it back via Court Lane isn’t the worst idea in the world, but of course isn’t physically possible now and Dulwich Picture Gallery would probably want more, not less connectivity to it. It won’t be sent via Forest Hill. I know some people making through journeys would like either the 176 or 197 to bypass Forest Hill but it’s too big a trip generator.
There’s also an argument the the problems caused by the Dulwich Common stretch of the South Circular should remain somewhat contained. The junction at College Road really needs remodelling and the phasing at the Dulwich Common/Lordship Lane junction should be more dynamic.
I would have liked to see a route linking Crystal Palace with Dulwich Village (via Gallery Road) and King’s College Hospital. Even that would then prompt a review of nearby routes like the 315, 322, 450 and P13.
There is scope to restructure the 356 and P13 which both have necessarily circuitous routings to connect local communities with the nearby shops. However breaking links might cause unnecessary hardship. Same with the P12 and the 484. These routes don’t really need changing.
The 352 used to run to Upper Sydenham with 10.1 metre Darts, but nowadays it is confined to much smaller buses and outside of school times is very quiet.
The 40 can be amended, as it has been in the past north of the Elephant, but the section between Dulwich Library and Camberwell Green has to stay as it is because the volume of buses is needed in combination with the 176 and 185 at peak times between Goose Green and Denmark Hill Station. I lived south of the Library for a long time and have never seen a full 176 or 185 there so the 40’s capacity isn’t really needed, even if inexplicable gaps in the three high frequency services there are a source of annoyance.
The 63 isn’t likely to be extended to Brockley Rise, unless the Mayor promises it. There is no case for it especially as the P12 provides a link from Honor Oak.
|
|
|
|
Post by overgroundcommuter on Apr 20, 2024 23:13:41 GMT
The 176 and 197 has always been a bugbear of mine and I've suggested previously that one of them be rerouted via Lower Sydenham and Perry Vale. I have relatives who used to live just off Lawrie Park Road and they had two routes at the end of the road neither of which served the local shops or went anywhere near Sainsburys, in fact it was easier to do their shopping in Penge or Forest Hill. Likewise staff and visitors to St Christopher's Hospice often had a more difficult journey than they should from Lower Sydenham and it's a very awkward change of buses. This part of London has a fairly dense network of Sainsbury’s - I don’t think anyone would struggle to reach one nearby on local buses, though I appreciate the SavaCentre is much bigger than any of the others! When the Sainsbury's in Forest Hill was closed for refurbishment last summer, they put a map sending customers to the Dulwich Superstore on Dog Kennel Hill which has two direct bus routes between the two, rather than Bell Green which only has an every 20 minute direct service on the 356. |
|
|
|
Post by overgroundcommuter on Apr 20, 2024 23:23:27 GMT
The 40 can be amended, as it has been in the past north of the Elephant, but the section between Dulwich Library and Camberwell Green has to stay as it is because the volume of buses is needed in combination with the 176 and 185 at peak times between Goose Green and Denmark Hill Station. I lived south of the Library for a long time and have never seen a full 176 or 185 there so the 40’s capacity isn’t really needed, even if inexplicable gaps in the three high frequency services there are a source of annoyance. The 63 isn’t likely to be extended to Brockley Rise, unless the Mayor promises it. There is no case for it especially as the P12 provides a link from Honor Oak. You'd be surprised at the loads on the 176 and 185 south of Dulwich Library off peak. Even today (Saturday) while I waited for a bus on Lordship Lane towards Forest Hill, there was a packed 185 to Lewisham on a Saturday afternoon and the afternoon school run is always full to capacity due to the increase in local schools in the East Dulwich area. Those routes go past Charter East Dulwich, Harris Primary East Dulwich of which are new schools built in the last decade along with St Anthony's Primary near Dulwich Library and the Upland Road stop is used by pupils of Goodrich Primary. Sundays are also very popular for both of those routes. It's common to be on a full 176 or 185 towards Victoria or Tottenham Court Road and is even worse when the Overground isn't operating from Sydenham and Forest Hill as passengers use those routes into central London instead. The 40 drops to an every 15 minute service as well. As for the P12/63 issue. The P12 turns into Brenchley Gardens from Forest Hill Road and doesn't serve the retail and residential area to which a 63 extension would benefit passengers to reach the nearest Overground station at Honor Oak Park rather than having to go to Peckham Rye station on the 63/363 which has 4tph rather than the 8tph Honor Oak Park has. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Apr 21, 2024 8:45:16 GMT
The 40 can be amended, as it has been in the past north of the Elephant, but the section between Dulwich Library and Camberwell Green has to stay as it is because the volume of buses is needed in combination with the 176 and 185 at peak times between Goose Green and Denmark Hill Station. I lived south of the Library for a long time and have never seen a full 176 or 185 there so the 40’s capacity isn’t really needed, even if inexplicable gaps in the three high frequency services there are a source of annoyance. The 63 isn’t likely to be extended to Brockley Rise, unless the Mayor promises it. There is no case for it especially as the P12 provides a link from Honor Oak. You'd be surprised at the loads on the 176 and 185 south of Dulwich Library off peak. Even today (Saturday) while I waited for a bus on Lordship Lane towards Forest Hill, there was a packed 185 to Lewisham on a Saturday afternoon and the afternoon school run is always full to capacity due to the increase in local schools in the East Dulwich area. Those routes go past Charter East Dulwich, Harris Primary East Dulwich of which are new schools built in the last decade along with St Anthony's Primary near Dulwich Library and the Upland Road stop is used by pupils of Goodrich Primary. Sundays are also very popular for both of those routes. It's common to be on a full 176 or 185 towards Victoria or Tottenham Court Road and is even worse when the Overground isn't operating from Sydenham and Forest Hill as passengers use those routes into central London instead. The 40 drops to an every 15 minute service as well. As for the P12/63 issue. The P12 turns into Brenchley Gardens from Forest Hill Road and doesn't serve the retail and residential area to which a 63 extension would benefit passengers to reach the nearest Overground station at Honor Oak Park rather than having to go to Peckham Rye station on the 63/363 which has 4tph rather than the 8tph Honor Oak Park has. I would certainly advocate extending the 40 to Lower Sydenham and then take over part of the 194 to Penge or Beckenham. I think the rest of the 356 could be replaced by changes to the 354 and extending the P12 to Sydenham Hill. |
|
