|
|
Post by 6HP502C on Apr 21, 2024 12:24:07 GMT
This part of London has a fairly dense network of Sainsbury’s - I don’t think anyone would struggle to reach one nearby on local buses, though I appreciate the SavaCentre is much bigger than any of the others! When the Sainsbury's in Forest Hill was closed for refurbishment last summer, they put a map sending customers to the Dulwich Superstore on Dog Kennel Hill which has two direct bus routes between the two, rather than Bell Green which only has an every 20 minute direct service on the 356. I’m guessing loyal locals would have been split between Bell Green, Penge and Dog Kennel Hill, maybe even Lewisham for people on the Stanstead Road and Honor Oak sides. Sending people to East Dulwich would have been risky as there are now other options on Lordship Lane like Coop, M&S and Poundland! |
|
|
|
Post by redrover on May 19, 2024 21:50:12 GMT
Although extending the 63 from Honor Oak to Brockley Rise looks like a real winner on paper, there would be big problems with this. The road between the two is very steep, narrow, twisty, and beset by road works due to some very dodgy water mains. Although things would generally work well enough when traffic was quiet, the rush hours delays vary from minor to terrible for no apparent reason, and this unpredicatbility would wreck the currently good reliability on the rest of the route. It is annoying that the distance of the empty run between the last 63 stop at Honor Oak and the short stretch of bus lane where buses wait before getting the signal to U turn to the stand is further than between many bus stops. It would really benefit the many who get off at Honor Oak and then have a long, steep walk onwards towards Brockley Rise if an extra alighting point was added in the bus lane, where buses tend to have to wait for quite a while for a green signal anyway. I suggested this to TFL, but they told me this isn't possible without offering any explanation. Another issue is that, with such a frequent route as the 63, there would be a real shortage of stand space at Brockley Rise. (Incidently, is this the only terminus known by two names? The same stand is shown as Brockley Rise on 172 blinds, but Honor Oak Park on the P12.)
Rather than extending the 63, a short new route using small buses between Peckham and Brockley Rise might be a better way to fill the gap, perhaps continuing either to Bell Green or to Catford via Ravensbourne Park. This would mean that the P12 could then be usefully be diverted via Honor Oak Road to terminate at Forst Hill, partly solving the issue of the P4 not going there. I can imagine though that buses on a that new route would often leave Peckham overloaded with those just making the short trip to Honor Oak that they might have made on a 63 or 363 had they arrived first. Alternatively,extending either the P12 or 172 from their current shared Brockley Rise/Honor Oak Park terminal to Bell Green would make a lot of sense. This is currently a glaring missing link, and the Cranstone Road area certainly feels a very long way from a bus stop at present. Another possibility would be for the P12 to run on from Honor Oak Park to Catford via Ravensbourne Park, but traffic on the approach to Catford might again affect relibabilty on the rest of the route.
A proper "trunk" route that properly covered the South Circular from Forest Hill to Clapham is another big missing link. Variable congestion would again cause major unreliability, although even a minor remodelling of the Grove Tavern junction would much reduce one of the main delays.
Extending the 343 eastwards from New Cross Gate would be problematic due to the impracticality of turning right out of either Jerningham or Pepys Roads.
One issue with extending routes to better serve Forest Hill from the west is that, as was once the case with the 171 and shorts on the 122, the only possible terminal at Westbourne Drive is very remote from the town centre. The last alighting stop behind the station isn't too far from the action, but the first boarding stop for departures would is a seriously long way away. I remember a proper bus station being proposed when land adjacent to the railway station was developed, but sadly nothing ever came of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Catford94 on May 20, 2024 19:05:32 GMT
It is annoying that the distance of the empty run between the last 63 stop at Honor Oak and the short stretch of bus lane where buses wait before getting the signal to U turn to the stand is further than between many bus stops. It would really benefit the many who get off at Honor Oak and then have a long, steep walk onwards towards Brockley Rise if an extra alighting point was added in the bus lane, where buses tend to have to wait for quite a while for a green signal anyway. I suggested this to TFL, but they told me this isn't possible without offering any explanation.
Rather than extending the 63, a short new route using small buses between Peckham and Brockley Rise might be a better way to fill the gap, perhaps continuing either to Bell Green or to Catford via Ravensbourne Park. This would mean that the P12 could then be usefully be diverted via Honor Oak Road to terminate at Forst Hill, partly solving the issue of the P4 not going there. I can imagine though that buses on a that new route would often leave Peckham overloaded with those just making the short trip to Honor Oak that they might have made on a 63 or 363 had they arrived first. Alternatively,extending either the P12 or 172 from their current shared Brockley Rise/Honor Oak Park terminal to Bell Green would make a lot of sense. This is currently a glaring missing link, and the Cranstone Road area certainly feels a very long way from a bus stop at present. Another possibility would be for the P12 to run on from Honor Oak Park to Catford via Ravensbourne Park, but traffic on the approach to Catford might again affect relibabilty on the rest of the route.
A few bits of the above snipped, but for the two points I've left -
I think the difficulty with having an alighting point in the bit where the bus waits for the 'bus turning phase' at Honor Oak terminus is that by that point, the bus will already have (in effect) said 'hello, I'm a bus that wants to do a u-turn' to the traffic signals. The amount of time it will take the bus to get its signal is unpredictable, as it will depend on what phase of the traffic signal sequence it's at. If everything else is just about to go red, the bus will get its green light in a few seconds. If a pedestrian phase that would be affected by a turning bus has just started, the traffic signals have to allow those pedestrians time to finish crossing. It would cause problems if an unknown quantity of bus passengers were getting off during this time, as if there was a significant number of them, or if the driver needed to put the ramp out, or needed to play the 'this bus terminates here' a few times because someone's not paying attention, then the bus would miss its chance to turn.
(This from the perspective of someone who's not a traffic signals engineer, but has worked with them on bus priority schemes and the like and had them explain why what I want to happen isn't possible.)
And as said previously, the difficulty (apart from reliability) with any bus route terminating from the west at Catford would be there isn't anywhere to stand it, with the current road layout (Rushey Green is in some route descriptions as 'turning point only, bus must not stand') so it would have to continue to somewhere else - Lewisham, Hither Green, or possibly Catford Garage (although that's recently had the terminating 171's evicted, so maybe Downham or beyond.)
It's possible that if this year's plan for doing something with the one-way system / pedestrianising the bit between the old Town Hall and Laurence House comes to anything, it might be possible to fit a stand in somewhere. Or it might not. Having seen plans for doing something with the one-way system come and go over several decades, I'm not all that optimistic... |
|
|
|
Post by moz on May 21, 2024 14:50:54 GMT
I did think in the past whether it would be worth extending either the 172 or P12 from Brockley Rise via Brockley Rise, Cranston Road, Woolstone Road and Perry Rise to Bell Green Sainsburys.
Moz
|
|
|
|
Post by I-Azusio-I on May 21, 2024 15:32:00 GMT
Although extending the 63 from Honor Oak to Brockley Rise looks like a real winner on paper, there would be big problems with this. The road between the two is very steep, narrow, twisty, and beset by road works due to some very dodgy water mains. Although things would generally work well enough when traffic was quiet, the rush hours delays vary from minor to terrible for no apparent reason, and this unpredicatbility would wreck the currently good reliability on the rest of the route. It is annoying that the distance of the empty run between the last 63 stop at Honor Oak and the short stretch of bus lane where buses wait before getting the signal to U turn to the stand is further than between many bus stops. It would really benefit the many who get off at Honor Oak and then have a long, steep walk onwards towards Brockley Rise if an extra alighting point was added in the bus lane, where buses tend to have to wait for quite a while for a green signal anyway. I suggested this to TFL, but they told me this isn't possible without offering any explanation. Another issue is that, with such a frequent route as the 63, there would be a real shortage of stand space at Brockley Rise. (Incidently, is this the only terminus known by two names? The same stand is shown as Brockley Rise on 172 blinds, but Honor Oak Park on the P12.)
Rather than extending the 63, a short new route using small buses between Peckham and Brockley Rise might be a better way to fill the gap, perhaps continuing either to Bell Green or to Catford via Ravensbourne Park. This would mean that the P12 could then be usefully be diverted via Honor Oak Road to terminate at Forst Hill, partly solving the issue of the P4 not going there. I can imagine though that buses on a that new route would often leave Peckham overloaded with those just making the short trip to Honor Oak that they might have made on a 63 or 363 had they arrived first. Alternatively,extending either the P12 or 172 from their current shared Brockley Rise/Honor Oak Park terminal to Bell Green would make a lot of sense. This is currently a glaring missing link, and the Cranstone Road area certainly feels a very long way from a bus stop at present. Another possibility would be for the P12 to run on from Honor Oak Park to Catford via Ravensbourne Park, but traffic on the approach to Catford might again affect relibabilty on the rest of the route.
A proper "trunk" route that properly covered the South Circular from Forest Hill to Clapham is another big missing link. Variable congestion would again cause major unreliability, although even a minor remodelling of the Grove Tavern junction would much reduce one of the main delays.
Extending the 343 eastwards from New Cross Gate would be problematic due to the impracticality of turning right out of either Jerningham or Pepys Roads.
One issue with extending routes to better serve Forest Hill from the west is that, as was once the case with the 171 and shorts on the 122, the only possible terminal at Westbourne Drive is very remote from the town centre. The last alighting stop behind the station isn't too far from the action, but the first boarding stop for departures would is a seriously long way away. I remember a proper bus station being proposed when land adjacent to the railway station was developed, but sadly nothing ever came of it.
Whilst the P12 going to Forest Hill or Lower Sydenham wouldn't be a bad shout, I worry about the impact such extensions would have on its reliability. Not only has the frequency been cut, but the cycle lane in Surrey Quays and the Blackwall Tunnel closures which have caused on a knock-on effect on Rotherhithe Tunnel, have caused a lot of delays to P12. Those points, Ilderton Road/Surrey Canal Road junction, Old Kent Road/Ilderton Road junction and Peckham Town Centre are pretty much the only traffic hotspots on the route. Now curtailments such as Brenchley Gardens, Nunhead Station and South Bermondsey occur far more frequently than they used to. The same could be said for an extension to Catford in which it would have to contend with delays on the A205 or Perry Hill (Lower Sydenham extension). I do think 172 would be better suited for the Lower Sydenham extension which would open up new links from New Cross, Central London and act as an alternative for the Overground which serves Sydenham and which is just up the road from Bell Green. Right now, it stops short of anywhere properly useful. (Incidently, is this the only terminus known by two names? The same stand is shown as Brockley Rise on 172 blinds, but Honor Oak Park on the P12.) SEe260 shows Brockley Rise, its correct destination. During the LDP days, it showed that too where as with the E200s, I think "Honor Oak Park" was an error made on Go-Ahead's part that happened to just stick. |
|
