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Post by sdaniel on Jul 13, 2024 15:05:03 GMT
I am afraid all these proposals are flawed by the number of existing links that will be lost. I can see certainly see merit in having the 603 as a regular route, though it would need to be a new route number, not the 603 as that is a school route number. I think there may well be untapped demand for a regular service on it's existing route as it connects places directly that would otherwise require multiple changes making the journey difficult and undesirable. I think would therefore be worth trying as regular route, 15 minutes daytime and maybe if successful add a 20 minute evening and Sunday service. The existing two morning and two evening journeys are badly timed for some of the potential demand and don't show whether a full regular day service would be viable. I would leave all the other routes alone, as the saying goes if it ain't broke, don't fix it! It has to be somewhat merged with another route though because apparently TfL have refused to make it run only between Swiss Cottage and Muswell Hill as they think it will not make enough money. |
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Post by sdaniel on Jul 13, 2024 15:07:42 GMT
I went to school in Swiss Cottage and after 5 years I think the best proposals would have been: 603 extended to Paddington via route 46 and converted to daily single deck service 268 withdrawn 46 withdrawn between Rosslyn Hill and Paddington and rerouted to Finchley Road, 02 Centre via Belsize Village, Swiss Cottage and Finchley Road 240 extended to Hampstead Heath, Lawn Road via the 268 to Hampstead, Pond Street to Royal Free Hosp restoring a HH-GG link Both 1 and 240 can’t fit in the South End Green stand. But if your going to make 603 run between Paddington and Muswell Hill then it has to be double decker because the capacity at school hours will be high. |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 13, 2024 15:59:59 GMT
I am afraid all these proposals are flawed by the number of existing links that will be lost. I can see certainly see merit in having the 603 as a regular route, though it would need to be a new route number, not the 603 as that is a school route number. I think there may well be untapped demand for a regular service on it's existing route as it connects places directly that would otherwise require multiple changes making the journey difficult and undesirable. I think would therefore be worth trying as regular route, 15 minutes daytime and maybe if successful add a 20 minute evening and Sunday service. The existing two morning and two evening journeys are badly timed for some of the potential demand and don't show whether a full regular day service would be viable. I would leave all the other routes alone, as the saying goes if it ain't broke, don't fix it! It has to be somewhat merged with another route though because apparently TfL have refused to make it run only between Swiss Cottage and Muswell Hill as they think it will not make enough money. Where has this idea come from of the reason for TfL not taking forward to do with "not making enough money"? A number of routes in London don't turn a profit to begin with. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 13, 2024 16:41:09 GMT
I am afraid all these proposals are flawed by the number of existing links that will be lost. I can see certainly see merit in having the 603 as a regular route, though it would need to be a new route number, not the 603 as that is a school route number. I think there may well be untapped demand for a regular service on it's existing route as it connects places directly that would otherwise require multiple changes making the journey difficult and undesirable. I think would therefore be worth trying as regular route, 15 minutes daytime and maybe if successful add a 20 minute evening and Sunday service. The existing two morning and two evening journeys are badly timed for some of the potential demand and don't show whether a full regular day service would be viable. I would leave all the other routes alone, as the saying goes if it ain't broke, don't fix it! It has to be somewhat merged with another route though because apparently TfL have refused to make it run only between Swiss Cottage and Muswell Hill as they think it will not make enough money. ‘Apparently’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. |
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Post by sdaniel on Jul 13, 2024 18:04:39 GMT
It has to be somewhat merged with another route though because apparently TfL have refused to make it run only between Swiss Cottage and Muswell Hill as they think it will not make enough money. Where has this idea come from of the reason for TfL not taking forward to do with "not making enough money"? A number of routes in London don't turn a profit to begin with. What TFL said was that the route is not in demand and not economically viable. My bad, I misread the section on the article on Ham & High. |
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Post by greg on Jul 14, 2024 10:34:02 GMT
I went to school in Swiss Cottage and after 5 years I think the best proposals would have been: 603 extended to Paddington via route 46 and converted to daily single deck service 268 withdrawn 46 withdrawn between Rosslyn Hill and Paddington and rerouted to Finchley Road, 02 Centre via Belsize Village, Swiss Cottage and Finchley Road 240 extended to Hampstead Heath, Lawn Road via the 268 to Hampstead, Pond Street to Royal Free Hosp restoring a HH-GG link Both 1 and 240 can’t fit in the South End Green stand. But if your going to make 603 run between Paddington and Muswell Hill then it has to be double decker because the capacity at school hours will be high. Ive quoted the 240 up to Lawn Road so it wont be sharing a stand with the 24. There is numerous space for a stand to be made on Southampton Road and Lawn Road northbound back up to Royal Free |
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Post by sdaniel on Jul 14, 2024 12:55:21 GMT
Both 1 and 240 can’t fit in the South End Green stand. But if your going to make 603 run between Paddington and Muswell Hill then it has to be double decker because the capacity at school hours will be high. Ive quoted the 240 up to Lawn Road so it wont be sharing a stand with the 24. There is numerous space for a stand to be made on Southampton Road and Lawn Road northbound back up to Royal Free I think I would extend the 240 up to Camden Town via 24’s way up to Prince Of Wales Road then serving Kentish Town West Station, Kentish Town Road the Camden Gardens so that the Kentish Town and Hampstead Station link is still not broken as well as Kentish Town being connected to locations further up North such as Hendon, Mill Hill and Edgware. Nevertheless, your other ideas sound pretty good to be fair. 46 from St Bart’s Hospital to Finchley Road, O2 Centre sounds great. 603 from Paddington to Muswell Hill sounds good as well, it’s just that it has to have DD’s and it has to be numbered as 268 because the 600’s numbers are usually for school bus journeys. |
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Post by sdaniel on Jul 19, 2024 21:46:00 GMT
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Post by uakari on Jul 25, 2024 9:31:13 GMT
No, another waste of money just like the other 'special interest' route Sadiq promised to shadow the 210 because some people are too important to change buses.
Hampstead people going to Highgate and vice versa use their cars. Route is only useful for when mummy has pilates and can't take Tabitha and Rafferty to school, hence running when it does. They're lucky they get that. TfL like to have their ear bent by these types though, so I expect it will be running every 2-4 minutes and at night before long - they can use the money they saved from cancelling useful services.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 25, 2024 10:44:18 GMT
Ive quoted the 240 up to Lawn Road so it wont be sharing a stand with the 24. There is numerous space for a stand to be made on Southampton Road and Lawn Road northbound back up to Royal Free I think I would extend the 240 up to Camden Town via 24’s way up to Prince Of Wales Road then serving Kentish Town West Station, Kentish Town Road the Camden Gardens so that the Kentish Town and Hampstead Station link is still not broken as well as Kentish Town being connected to locations further up North such as Hendon, Mill Hill and Edgware. Nevertheless, your other ideas sound pretty good to be fair. 46 from St Bart’s Hospital to Finchley Road, O2 Centre sounds great. 603 from Paddington to Muswell Hill sounds good as well, it’s just that it has to have DD’s and it has to be numbered as 268 because the 600’s numbers are usually for school bus journeys. You want the 240 to be extended to Camden Town through Hampstead? Tell me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis without telling me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis 
I'm with uakari on this one and I would arguably benefit from a 603. There would be far too many buses through Highgate Village, the 234 is yet another link from Muswell Hill to Highgate and Archway, I just cannot see this route being at all sustainable in the long term. Without some reversal of the Highgate Village changes which will undoubtedly cause local uproar then a 603 daytime service would be a waste of resources.
Something along the lines of this as a reversal of the changes:
17 - Extended to Highgate Village using the 214 stand. 234 - Hacked back to Highgate Wood once again
263 - Diverted back along the Archway Road via the 43 and 263. The 17 would provide links to Holloway Nag's Head and long distance 263 journeys towards the Village can be made with a change at East Finchley for the 143. I would have suggested longer electrics to compensate for a reduction in capacity but there have been electrics ordered already...so oh well
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Post by sdaniel on Jul 25, 2024 11:47:51 GMT
I think I would extend the 240 up to Camden Town via 24’s way up to Prince Of Wales Road then serving Kentish Town West Station, Kentish Town Road the Camden Gardens so that the Kentish Town and Hampstead Station link is still not broken as well as Kentish Town being connected to locations further up North such as Hendon, Mill Hill and Edgware. Nevertheless, your other ideas sound pretty good to be fair. 46 from St Bart’s Hospital to Finchley Road, O2 Centre sounds great. 603 from Paddington to Muswell Hill sounds good as well, it’s just that it has to have DD’s and it has to be numbered as 268 because the 600’s numbers are usually for school bus journeys. You want the 240 to be extended to Camden Town through Hampstead? Tell me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis without telling me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis
I'm with uakari on this one and I would arguably benefit from a 603. There would be far too many buses through Highgate Village, the 234 is yet another link from Muswell Hill to Highgate and Archway, I just cannot see this route being at all sustainable in the long term. Without some reversal of the Highgate Village changes which will undoubtedly cause local uproar then a 603 daytime service would be a waste of resources.
Something along the lines of this as a reversal of the changes:
17 - Extended to Highgate Village using the 214 stand. 234 - Hacked back to Highgate Wood once again
263 - Diverted back along the Archway Road via the 43 and 263. The 17 would provide links to Holloway Nag's Head and long distance 263 journeys towards the Village can be made with a change at East Finchley for the 143. I would have suggested longer electrics to compensate for a reduction in capacity but there have been electrics ordered already...so oh well
If you reroute the 263 through Highgate Station then you’re technically breaking the Highgate Village and North Finchley link. Furthermore, the 134 already does the job between Highgate Station and North Finchley with the support of 43 between Muswell Hill and Friern Barnet. The 143 was supposed to run through Highgate Station to Archway with the proposed 620 running between East Finchley Schools and Archway, but Highgate School complained that the 143 links would be broken. Moreover they could have looked at extending the 643 to Archway through Highgate Village with an increase frequency during school hours every 15 minutes from 7am - 9am and 3pm - 6pm on weekdays with the 143 going with the proposed plans running through Highgate station/ Archway Road then 234 going back to terminating at Highgate Wood. If TFL do this then there would be 2 normal buses (263 and 603) and 1 school bus (643) running between Highgate Village and East Finchley which should be enough so that North Hill isn’t overbussed. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 25, 2024 12:17:06 GMT
You want the 240 to be extended to Camden Town through Hampstead? Tell me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis without telling me you don't use the 240 on a regular basis
I'm with uakari on this one and I would arguably benefit from a 603. There would be far too many buses through Highgate Village, the 234 is yet another link from Muswell Hill to Highgate and Archway, I just cannot see this route being at all sustainable in the long term. Without some reversal of the Highgate Village changes which will undoubtedly cause local uproar then a 603 daytime service would be a waste of resources.
Something along the lines of this as a reversal of the changes:
17 - Extended to Highgate Village using the 214 stand. 234 - Hacked back to Highgate Wood once again
263 - Diverted back along the Archway Road via the 43 and 263. The 17 would provide links to Holloway Nag's Head and long distance 263 journeys towards the Village can be made with a change at East Finchley for the 143. I would have suggested longer electrics to compensate for a reduction in capacity but there have been electrics ordered already...so oh well
If you reroute the 263 through Highgate Station then you’re technically breaking the Highgate Village and North Finchley link. Furthermore, the 134 already does the job between Highgate Station and North Finchley with the support of 43 between Muswell Hill and Friern Barnet. The 143 was supposed to run through Highgate Station to Archway with the proposed 620 running between East Finchley Schools and Archway, but Highgate School complained that the 143 links would be broken. Moreover they could have looked at extending the 643 to Archway through Highgate Village with an increase frequency during school hours every 15 minutes from 7am - 9am and 3pm - 6pm on weekdays with the 143 going with the proposed plans running through Highgate station/ Archway Road then 234 going back to terminating at Highgate Wood. If TFL do this then there would be 2 normal buses (263 and 603) and 1 school bus (643) running between Highgate Village and East Finchley which should be enough so that North Hill isn’t overbussed. The 263 has become extremely unreliable since the Highgate Village reroute, I thought it would all be over once the Dartmouth Park Hill works finished but it appears not. I think I'd rather a bus route that has buses going right to the very end rather than 263s constantly curtailing to Whetstone, Holloway Nag's Head, East Finchley Station and Archway. I'm sure plenty of passengers would feel the same way too. This link has existed for just under 18 months, it's of no real sentimental value and should be the first bit to go if there are any changes made to the 263.
The 143 meanwhile has had a longstanding affiliation with Highgate Village and has done so for the best part of 50 years. This is why I was against the changes initially to reroute the 143 away from the village, but the alternative that was pursued has meant resources are wasted operating 3 routes from East Finchley to Archway alongside the Northern Line. The 263 has not had this affiliation, and should revert to how it once operated back in 2022/early 2023.
I take it you also don't use the 643. I personally don't use it, but having been local to the 643 for a considerable period of time, it arrives at East Finchley Schools at around the time a 643 would need to be finished up if it were to be extended to Highgate Village. A 643 running along the 143 during the peak hours would be a very wasteful use of resources as well, this would mean yet another bus along Hendon Lane which has already had the addition of two more in the past five years (with double deckers at that).
The situation in Highgate isn't perfect and there is much to be improved. I think it would be relatively harmless, if a link to Swiss Cottage and Hampstead were to be desired from the Finchley/Muswell Hill/Highgate area, it most likely wouldn't be one that links all these areas up given the concentration of bus routes already in those three areas. I think, having used the H3 a great deal, in conjunction with changes to the H2 around the Heath Extension, some sort of a diversion of the H3 from Hampstead Way down to North End Road would be a better way to achieve a link up between these areas whilst not wasting resources. It wouldn't be perfect, and I wouldn't advocate for it to reach Swiss Cottage either particularly, I think a link to the Royal Free would be a lot more useful and introduce a genuinely useful link rather than parallel two other routes towards Swiss Cottage. It has the disadvantage that it wouldn't serve the Highgate schools nor would it actually reach Muswell Hill, but if perhaps with a revised frequency and changes made to the operation of the 631/H2, I suspect it could be increased a little in frequency so that it makes it far more attractive to change buses.
Just my twopence as someone who has lived in this neck of the woods for approaching twenty years.
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Post by sdaniel on Sept 3, 2024 21:36:01 GMT
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Post by southlondonbus on Sept 3, 2024 21:48:14 GMT
They could certainly re vist the proposal to divert the 268 to Highgate Village/Muswell Hill if say 46 became GG to Smithfield with maybe (not sure of stand space thou) a South End Green to Paddington route. |
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Post by sdaniel on Sept 3, 2024 23:52:18 GMT
They could certainly re vist the proposal to divert the 268 to Highgate Village/Muswell Hill if say 46 became GG to Smithfield with maybe (not sure of stand space thou) a South End Green to Paddington route. The best option is: 46: St Bart’s Hospital - Finchley Road (O2 Centre)
240: Edgware - Hampstead Heath (South End Green)
268: Paddington - Muswell Hill
603: WithdrawnFurthermore, with 240 extended and 268 diverted, this certainly creates space for the 310 at Golders Green and could increase its frequency only if it doesn’t follow 210’s routing after the trial. |
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