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Post by M1104 on Feb 2, 2020 22:09:34 GMT
I believe the opposite has actually happened as there was a separate bus stand bay further along the road which is now a regular car parking space. Mind you I don't know how long ago that happened as I haven't driven the 337 for the best part of twenty years. Also at the time the 239 used to stand there as well, which may be why there is one less space for buses. Guessing you was at AV when you drove the route? Was back in the 90s, when Stockwell ran the route with the Leyland Metros. Was still working there when we lost it to AV though.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 2, 2020 23:07:37 GMT
I do not think this 2 minutes as a "written rule" I have searched everywhere for it and could not find it. There was something some years ago about idling bus engines not allowed more than 2 minutes, but cannot find that either. Section 3a www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/part/I/madeJust read the definition of a bus stop clearway ... Going to check a number of them to see how many meet the required definition ... as not all bus stops are clear ways if I am reading it correctly. No idea at mo, how many of them meet the requirements, but think it will be quite high. Definition of a bus stop road markings in the highway code meets the definition of a bus stop clearway. PS Have not and do not intend reading all the various amendments of traffic sign regulations to see if it has changed since But there is still nothing saying in print no more than 2 minutes...
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 2, 2020 23:09:24 GMT
Section 3a www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/part/I/madeJust read the definition of a bus stop clearway ... Going to check a number of them to see how many meet the required definition ... as not all bus stops are clear ways if I am reading it correctly. No idea at mo, how many of them meet the requirements, but think it will be quite high. Definition of a bus stop road markings in the highway code meets the definition of a bus stop clearway. PS Have not and do not intend reading all the various amendments of traffic sign regulations to see if it has changed since Seems pretty clear to me. Regulating the service by causing the bus to wait at the stop for longer than two minutes breaks this law / regulation. I'd be interested to hear what the bus operators and TfL have to say about that. Also interested in a Lawyer's advice as to whether this is the correct interpretation.
Doesn't seem clear to me at all. It seems like the myth people used to have back in the 80's and 90's that traffic wardens were meant to allow you 2 minutes if you were parked on a yellow line. Some people still swear by it today.
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Post by Lukeo on Feb 3, 2020 10:57:51 GMT
My H19 decided to sit at St Georges centre for 3-4 mins (an alighting-only stop, 1 stop before the Harrow Bus Station terminus) without warning. Could have walked and made my connection if the driver told us we weren’t going to move -_-
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Post by Pilot on Feb 3, 2020 11:42:10 GMT
My H19 decided to sit at St Georges centre for 3-4 mins (an alighting-only stop, 1 stop before the Harrow Bus Station terminus) without warning. Could have walked and made my connection if the driver told us we weren’t going to move -_- This happens more now because drivers getting sick of passengers starting to moan as soon as they press the PA that bus will even out service. In a lot of cases, rota drivers even out service in same spots so regulars/locals already know what's going on.
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Post by SILENCED on Feb 3, 2020 15:27:45 GMT
Section 3a www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/part/I/madeJust read the definition of a bus stop clearway ... Going to check a number of them to see how many meet the required definition ... as not all bus stops are clear ways if I am reading it correctly. No idea at mo, how many of them meet the requirements, but think it will be quite high. Definition of a bus stop road markings in the highway code meets the definition of a bus stop clearway. PS Have not and do not intend reading all the various amendments of traffic sign regulations to see if it has changed since But there is still nothing saying in print no more than 2 minutes... Quote to maintain the published timetable for the service (provided, in the case of a bus stop clearway, the bus is not stopped within the clearway for a period exceeding two minutes); OK it uses the word two rather than the number 2 I have also checked a small sample of main road bus stops and all met the criteria of bus stop clearway.
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Post by wirewiper on Feb 3, 2020 16:33:26 GMT
A bus stop clearway, to be enforceable, has to have the following:
- A broad, solid yellow line parallel to the kerb - A box outlined by three broken yellow lines - A sign on the bus stop with the "clearway" symbol* and the times when the clearway is operational.
* the clearway symbol consists of a circular sign within a red border, and a red X on a blue background.
Note that taxis ARE allowed to pick up and set down within a bus stop clearway, but not to wait in one.
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Post by SILENCED on Feb 3, 2020 16:40:28 GMT
A bus stop clearway, to be enforceable, has to have the following: - A broad, solid yellow line parallel to the kerb - A box outlined by three broken yellow lines - A sign on the bus stop with the "clearway" symbol* and the times when the clearway is operational. * the clearway symbol consists of a circular sign within a red border, and a red X on a blue background. Note that taxis ARE allowed to pick up and set down within a bus stop clearway, but not to wait in one. Agree ... quick check of the South Norwood main road bus stops showed them to meet the criteria for a bus stop clearway, but not the ones on the side roads.
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Post by Lukeo on Feb 3, 2020 16:59:46 GMT
My H19 decided to sit at St Georges centre for 3-4 mins (an alighting-only stop, 1 stop before the Harrow Bus Station terminus) without warning. Could have walked and made my connection if the driver told us we weren’t going to move -_- This happens more now because drivers getting sick of passengers starting to moan as soon as they press the PA that bus will even out service. In a lot of cases, rota drivers even out service in same spots so regulars/locals already know what's going on. I just don’t see why a bus would be regulated 1 stop before the terminus though! Especially when it’s also an alighting-only stop. Later on today I narrowly missed a H17 which was running 4 mins ahead of its timetable lol. Clearly not my day!
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Post by greenboy on Feb 3, 2020 17:24:08 GMT
This happens more now because drivers getting sick of passengers starting to moan as soon as they press the PA that bus will even out service. In a lot of cases, rota drivers even out service in same spots so regulars/locals already know what's going on. I just don’t see why a bus would be regulated 1 stop before the terminus though! Especially when it’s also an alighting-only stop. Later on today I narrowly missed a H17 which was running 4 mins ahead of its timetable lol. Clearly not my day! I've had that before, a bus being regulated one stop before the end of the route. On a 36 for example one stop before NX, I could understand it if stand space was limited and drivers were wary of getting there early.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 3, 2020 18:48:57 GMT
A bus stop clearway, to be enforceable, has to have the following: - A broad, solid yellow line parallel to the kerb - A box outlined by three broken yellow lines - A sign on the bus stop with the "clearway" symbol* and the times when the clearway is operational. * the clearway symbol consists of a circular sign within a red border, and a red X on a blue background. Note that taxis ARE allowed to pick up and set down within a bus stop clearway, but not to wait in one. Hmmm, so the question is why are all bus stops not clearways....
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Post by wirewiper on Feb 3, 2020 19:03:46 GMT
A bus stop clearway, to be enforceable, has to have the following: - A broad, solid yellow line parallel to the kerb - A box outlined by three broken yellow lines - A sign on the bus stop with the "clearway" symbol* and the times when the clearway is operational. * the clearway symbol consists of a circular sign within a red border, and a red X on a blue background. Note that taxis ARE allowed to pick up and set down within a bus stop clearway, but not to wait in one. Hmmm, so the question is why are all bus stops not clearways.... Not all bus stops have road markings - clearway conditions cannot be imposed if it is not clearly marked exactly where they apply to.
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Post by redbus on Feb 3, 2020 21:28:17 GMT
I just don’t see why a bus would be regulated 1 stop before the terminus though! Especially when it’s also an alighting-only stop. Later on today I narrowly missed a H17 which was running 4 mins ahead of its timetable lol. Clearly not my day! I've had that before, a bus being regulated one stop before the end of the route. On a 36 for example one stop before NX, I could understand it if stand space was limited and drivers were wary of getting there early. Is it possible that the end of route is an official timing point, so by delaying at the stop before it helps (massages!?) the timing data at the timing point? Or am I being cynical?
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Post by Pilot on Feb 3, 2020 23:15:15 GMT
I've had that before, a bus being regulated one stop before the end of the route. On a 36 for example one stop before NX, I could understand it if stand space was limited and drivers were wary of getting there early. Is it possible that the end of route is an official timing point, so by delaying at the stop before it helps (massages!?) the timing data at the timing point? Or am I being cynical? I think this is correct. chrisb probably knows more about this.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 3, 2020 23:17:25 GMT
But there is still nothing saying in print no more than 2 minutes... Quote to maintain the published timetable for the service (provided, in the case of a bus stop clearway, the bus is not stopped within the clearway for a period exceeding two minutes); OK it uses the word two rather than the number 2 I have also checked a small sample of main road bus stops and all met the criteria of bus stop clearway. Perhaps we're getting too hung up on the meaning of ''clearway'' here, rather than the distinction in law, or at least regulation, between a bus stop and a bus stand. I'm quoting here from Page: UK Traffic Signs Manual -Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008. pdf/82 ''CLEARWAY AND NO STOPPING SIGNS. Paragraph 9.20. Diagram 974 is used where the road marking legend is BUS STOP and Diagram 975 where the road marking legend id BUS STAND. In Schedule 19. paragraph 1(a) the definition of a ''clearway'' includes both bus stops and bus stands, whereas the definition of a ''bus stop clearway'' relates only to bus stops and not bus stands.The requirement of Schedule 19, Paragraph 3(a) is that a bus may stop in a ''clearway'' for as long as is necessary to maintain a scheduled service, but in the case of a ''bus stop clearway'' there is a time limit of two minutes. Therefore, if buses are expected to wait longer than two minutes, other than to pick up or set down passengers or for a change of crew, the clearway should be marked and signed as a bus stand.'' The diagrams referred to have no bearing on the discussion we're having here, merely showing the permitted wording on plates connected to the bus stops/stands. So, imo it's unambiguous - there is a prohibition on a bus waiting time at a 'bus stop' as opposed to a 'bus stand' for longer than two minutes, though how likely it might be for a local authority to enforce it (I'd doubt the police would consider it within their remit) is debateable. I suspect any such action would be 'political' i.e. if a council had a beef against a specific operator.
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