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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 5:33:13 GMT
Visited Harlow today and noticed that the nice new buses on the 510 seem to have largely disappeared, being replaced by the older low-floor Wright-bodied vehicles from the 500/501, which in turn are being substantially operated by a rag-bag of vehicles, including N-reg step-entrance buses in TGM livery, with Excel legal lettering, and a bit of paper "on hire to Arriva" in the window. Presumably Arriva are moving anything that has a value (ie, not much) from Harlow, in order to leave it with a pile of cascaded old ****. I would expect some of the newer Solos to go as well when the ECC tender losses kick in. And that is how "Network Harlow" will be cheaper to operate. In accounting terms, they will have a load of effectively life-expired vehicles which have no depreciation to worry about, and no doubt new staff will have less favourable pay and conditions. Trebles all round for the Arriva directors, as Private Eye would say. Does not sount very promising and old & non low floor buses would normaly rule them out of getting council contracts and there is really no excuse for putting scruffy bits of paper in the windscreens that just smacks of a good not care a less attitude and indicates poor management amd low standards hardly the thing to attract people onto buses. Bus companies are seriously struggling to maintain revenues outside of London. Whilst pasenger usage is increasing in margibaly that figure masks the true position. When you examine the figures you find that Free concessionary travel is increasing but fare paying usage is falling fast. The cause seems to be the high levels of concessionary travel at peak times driving people away due to overcrowded buses also prams on the buses at peaks is another problem. 2 prames would take up the space of about 8 seats. This is further compounded by cuts in services and buses companies putting up fares to try to increase revenues. It is not looking good for bus services at present
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Post by jay38a on Aug 4, 2010 8:59:38 GMT
Instead of all this Harlow needs a huge influx of Low Floor Buses, maybe instead of sending the S--- JUAs to Garston where most things were already Low Floor, sending them to Harlow to Replace some High Floor rubbish. How are Network Harlow going to win over SM Coaches when most of SM Coaches routes use Low Floor Buses and some even use New Enviro 200 Darts.
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 4, 2010 11:15:57 GMT
I don't like the idea of Network Harlow... @ least with Network Colchester, they've invested in the fleet. They have a mostly low-floor fleet up there. It would make sense for TH's DLA's (the likes of DLA40) to head to Harlow (perhaps after it's been repainted into TGM white, yellow, blue) to make their deckers low floor. Who knows how long Network Harlow will last? They might absorb it back into Arriva in a few years' time. It was just a way for Arriva to keep it's foot in the door, using it's TGM subsidiary MK Metro was absorbed back into Arriva earlier this year. Regarding the High Floor buses, I thought it would be in Arriva's (or Network Harlow's) interests to introduce a modern fleet, not everyone's cast-offs
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 11:24:15 GMT
I think SM Coaches are going to do very well out of this! They still have a few step-entrance buses, but they mostly have low-floor now. And it would be great to see some DLAs in Harlow, Arriva don't have any at the moment. They had a couple of Metrobuses a few years back. But, double decks don't really go well with Harlow local routes. Maybe they would be good on the 510.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 13:11:00 GMT
I don't like the idea of Network Harlow... @ least with Network Colchester, they've invested in the fleet. They have a mostly low-floor fleet up there. It would make sense for TH's DLA's (the likes of DLA40) to head to Harlow (perhaps after it's been repainted into TGM white, yellow, blue) to make their deckers low floor. Who knows how long Network Harlow will last? They might absorb it back into Arriva in a few years' time. It was just a way for Arriva to keep it's foot in the door, using it's TGM subsidiary MK Metro was absorbed back into Arriva earlier this year. Regarding the High Floor buses, I thought it would be in Arriva's (or Network Harlow's) interests to introduce a modern fleet, not everyone's cast-offs But surely it is in every Arriva units interest to want low floor vehicles ... if they want them they will have to put forward a better business case than the other business units
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Post by john on Aug 4, 2010 15:01:06 GMT
I seem to remember the exact same thing happening in Colchester when Arriva "pulled" out. They gave Southend the low floor vehicles and cascaded all the step-entrance crap there. Network Colchester had a difficult beginning but look at them now!! Often see their vehicles in Romford on NXEA services and all are low floor. I wouldn't be writing them off just yet
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Post by vjaska on Aug 4, 2010 19:02:04 GMT
Instead of all this Harlow needs a huge influx of Low Floor Buses, maybe instead of sending the S--- JUAs to Garston where most things were already Low Floor, sending them to Harlow to Replace some High Floor rubbish. How are Network Harlow going to win over SM Coaches when most of SM Coaches routes use Low Floor Buses and some even use New Enviro 200 Darts. You don't need low floors to beat off competition. There are many independants who do well using whatever they grab their hands on. Woottens, for example, are slowly eating into Arriva's routes around High Wycombe by offering low fares on their Tiger Line services using elderly Tigers. They recently brought 5 Tigers from Ulsterbus for their new T5 service which goes alongside the T1 & T2 (also operated by Tigers, abeit one of a kind East Lancs Hylines) and the 160/321 (operated by E227 CFC, A869 SUL & CUD 222Y, 2 Olympians and a Titan). Network Harlow needs to plan how to sell its routes to the public, condition it's vehicles to the highest standard whether they are step entrance or low floor and then advertise it in the best ways possible (dropping leaflets through doors, setting up an info point in Harlow, etc). Low floors can come later on once they have set up a stable network which is profitable in the long run. Many ops have gone to the wall trying to go new and modern from the off.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 20:34:26 GMT
Definatly agree with you vjaska! Also, SM Coaches in the past operated very old buses on their last legs (still do, but certainly not so much), and have managed to get more passengers on the Epping-Harlow corridor (this one especially!), the Harlow-Hertford corridor, and many local Harlow services, where Arriva operated low-floor modern types. Now Arriva tend to be using older buses than SM!
This Network Harlow network is going to give Harlow much more variety in terms of liveries and buses, and there is a huge amount of variety anyway, so I think Harlow is a bus-spotters paradise, and will get even better!
Also, it may interest you that Harlow-based routes 250 (Waltham Cross-Debden) and 251 (Waltham Cross to Upshire) have been de-registered as Arriva Shires & Essex Ltd routes, and re-registered as Arriva The Shires Ltd routes (and not as TGM Group routes as expected). This could mean that these routes will operate from Ware instead of Harlow.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 4, 2010 21:14:59 GMT
Definatly agree with you vjaska! Also, SM Coaches in the past operated very old buses on their last legs (still do, but certainly not so much), and have managed to get more passengers on the Epping-Harlow corridor (this one especially!), the Harlow-Hertford corridor, and many local Harlow services, where Arriva operated low-floor modern types. Now Arriva tend to be using older buses than SM! This Network Harlow network is going to give Harlow much more variety in terms of liveries and buses, and there is a huge amount of variety anyway, so I think Harlow is a bus-spotters paradise, and will get even better! Also, it may interest you that Harlow-based routes 250 (Waltham Cross-Debden) and 251 (Waltham Cross to Upshire) have been de-registered as Arriva Shires & Essex Ltd routes, and re-registered as Arriva The Shires Ltd routes (and not as TGM Group routes as expected). This could mean that these routes will operate from Ware instead of Harlow. Very true 'alex' and this age where financial times are hard and withdrawn London buses finding it hard to find new homes, getting the maximum out of older buses seems to be the best option . This is why I've always liked Arriva over the 'fans favorite' Stagecoach because Arriva like to get every last ounce of breath out of their vehicles whereas Stagecoach throw money about like its going out of fashion (and takeover every operator going).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 22:26:12 GMT
Definatly agree with you vjaska! Also, SM Coaches in the past operated very old buses on their last legs (still do, but certainly not so much), and have managed to get more passengers on the Epping-Harlow corridor (this one especially!), the Harlow-Hertford corridor, and many local Harlow services, where Arriva operated low-floor modern types. Now Arriva tend to be using older buses than SM! This Network Harlow network is going to give Harlow much more variety in terms of liveries and buses, and there is a huge amount of variety anyway, so I think Harlow is a bus-spotters paradise, and will get even better! Also, it may interest you that Harlow-based routes 250 (Waltham Cross-Debden) and 251 (Waltham Cross to Upshire) have been de-registered as Arriva Shires & Essex Ltd routes, and re-registered as Arriva The Shires Ltd routes (and not as TGM Group routes as expected). This could mean that these routes will operate from Ware instead of Harlow. Very true 'alex' and this age where financial times are hard and withdrawn London buses finding it hard to find new homes, getting the maximum out of older buses seems to be the best option . This is why I've always liked Arriva over the 'fans favorite' Stagecoach because Arriva like to get every last ounce of breath out of their vehicles whereas Stagecoach throw money about like its going out of fashion (and takeover every operator going). Think thats a tad unfair on Stagecoach to be honest. Whilst I have no enthusiasm for the Souter and Gloag partnership, the age of their vehicles still in regular service shows numerous ancient (by London standards) vehicles. This is evidenced by the age of some vehicles of theirs arriving at Ensigns at Purfleet!
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Post by vjaska on Aug 5, 2010 0:54:19 GMT
Very true 'alex' and this age where financial times are hard and withdrawn London buses finding it hard to find new homes, getting the maximum out of older buses seems to be the best option . This is why I've always liked Arriva over the 'fans favorite' Stagecoach because Arriva like to get every last ounce of breath out of their vehicles whereas Stagecoach throw money about like its going out of fashion (and takeover every operator going). Think thats a tad unfair on Stagecoach to be honest. Whilst I have no enthusiasm for the Souter and Gloag partnership, the age of their vehicles still in regular service shows numerous ancient (by London standards) vehicles. This is evidenced by the age of some vehicles of theirs arriving at Ensigns at Purfleet! A lot of the vehicles turning up at Purfleet and other dealers are younger Leyland Olympians and young Volvo B10M's, vehicles which could still do a job in the Stagecoach empire. Admittingly, Arriva are slightly catching up as Stagecoach don't have a pool of older LF vehicles to choose from (i.e. Stagecoach London) whereas Arriva have London to cascade about.
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Post by jay38a on Aug 5, 2010 7:39:36 GMT
Think thats a tad unfair on Stagecoach to be honest. Whilst I have no enthusiasm for the Souter and Gloag partnership, the age of their vehicles still in regular service shows numerous ancient (by London standards) vehicles. This is evidenced by the age of some vehicles of theirs arriving at Ensigns at Purfleet! A lot of the vehicles turning up at Purfleet and other dealers are younger Leyland Olympians and young Volvo B10M's, vehicles which could still do a job in the Stagecoach empire. Admittingly, Arriva are slightly catching up as Stagecoach don't have a pool of older LF vehicles to choose from (i.e. Stagecoach London) whereas Arriva have London to cascade about. Vjaska i think you are also being a bit harsh against Stagecoach. Stagecoach are looking into the future. As they still have a sizeable fleet of High Floor Buses which need to all be replaced by 2014 (all single deckers) and 2017 (all double deckers), they are replacing the fleet at a rate which means there wont be a mad panic in like 2013 for single deckers saying oh help we need 400 LF single deckers by next year which wont be possible.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 5, 2010 14:06:07 GMT
A lot of the vehicles turning up at Purfleet and other dealers are younger Leyland Olympians and young Volvo B10M's, vehicles which could still do a job in the Stagecoach empire. Admittingly, Arriva are slightly catching up as Stagecoach don't have a pool of older LF vehicles to choose from (i.e. Stagecoach London) whereas Arriva have London to cascade about. Vjaska i think you are also being a bit harsh against Stagecoach. Stagecoach are looking into the future. As they still have a sizeable fleet of High Floor Buses which need to all be replaced by 2014 (all single deckers) and 2017 (all double deckers), they are replacing the fleet at a rate which means there wont be a mad panic in like 2013 for single deckers saying oh help we need 400 LF single deckers by next year which wont be possible. Thats a bit over the top, no one will need 400 LF deckers at one time. Looking in the future is not know, thats the present. Thats my opinion on it and thats why I like Arriva, they get their moneys worth out of everything unlike First who scrap anything as they know they will be undercut by other ops and Stagecoach who replace stuff which can give more service.
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Post by john on Aug 5, 2010 14:38:34 GMT
Vjaska i think you are also being a bit harsh against Stagecoach. Stagecoach are looking into the future. As they still have a sizeable fleet of High Floor Buses which need to all be replaced by 2014 (all single deckers) and 2017 (all double deckers), they are replacing the fleet at a rate which means there wont be a mad panic in like 2013 for single deckers saying oh help we need 400 LF single deckers by next year which wont be possible. Thats a bit over the top, no one will need 400 LF deckers at one time. Looking in the future is not know, thats the present. Thats my opinion on it and thats why I like Arriva, they get their moneys worth out of everything unlike First who scrap anything as they know they will be undercut by other ops and Stagecoach who replace stuff which can give more service. I can see where you're coming from vjaska, but I have to agree with everyone else. Stagecoach do have the luxury of having a "partnership" with ADL which no doubt gives them reduced rates too. However, the main difference between the two would be standards of vehicles. Arriva may work their vehicles, but their maintenance standards against Stagecoach, from my own experiences here in Romford, are far lower. First on the other hand are a nightmare!!! They either don't replace anything, or buy tonnes!! Either way, they're always crap ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2010 16:57:47 GMT
Definatly agree with you vjaska! Also, SM Coaches in the past operated very old buses on their last legs (still do, but certainly not so much), and have managed to get more passengers on the Epping-Harlow corridor (this one especially!), the Harlow-Hertford corridor, and many local Harlow services, where Arriva operated low-floor modern types. Now Arriva tend to be using older buses than SM! This Network Harlow network is going to give Harlow much more variety in terms of liveries and buses, and there is a huge amount of variety anyway, so I think Harlow is a bus-spotters paradise, and will get even better! Also, it may interest you that Harlow-based routes 250 (Waltham Cross-Debden) and 251 (Waltham Cross to Upshire) have been de-registered as Arriva Shires & Essex Ltd routes, and re-registered as Arriva The Shires Ltd routes (and not as TGM Group routes as expected). This could mean that these routes will operate from Ware instead of Harlow. A lot of the problems with Arriva in those areas were the dreadfull timekeeping and reliability of their services . They seem to have carried on in the tradition of LCNE and the various companies that followed them Who knows what Arriva are up to. Harlow already has a lot of spare capacity and Ware would need to use another garage for maintainance so they will prsumably now go to Stevenage. It is also slightly more dead running for the 250 & 251
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