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Post by RM5chris on Dec 20, 2012 14:39:58 GMT
I've only voted to ban all traffic other than buses because...I hate those pedicabs. If your stuck on a bus following one of an evening they are a right pain in the arse.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 20, 2012 14:45:46 GMT
I've only voted to ban all traffic other than buses because...I hate those pedicabs. If your stuck on a bus following one of an evening they are a right pain in the arse. I read somewhere that Boris is doing a crackdown on these, he wants them licensed like minicabs and taxis. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 14:59:14 GMT
Pedicabs should stay away from areas where there are high traffic. Plus they con people because they dont have the meter installed.
So banning pedicabs will be good but it will cause the staff to lose their jobs. they should be offered job in taxi firm.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 20, 2012 15:35:14 GMT
Hail And ride you want? well try sitting on a bus that gets flagged down every centimetre or someone wants to get off. in around 2 hours, you'd still probably be on oxford street! Well if the commuter wants to go to Marble Arch from Oxford Street, they can simply take the Central Line train. Not every commuter is able bodied, not every commuter is unencumbered, not every commuter wants to slog down through Oxford Circus for about 5-10 mins to reach the platform, wait for a train, travel and then take 5-10 mins to get out at Marble Arch which is too small and overloaded for much of the day. People forget that station and platform access times can be quite long at Central London tube stations and the bus can often be quicker than the tube. Buses can also get people closer to their actual location that tube stations can. I would expect LU would have to temporarily close, from time to time, all of their stations on Oxford St if there were no bus services and people had to take the tube to go up and down Oxford St. That would make the place even less attractive than the shop keepers keep saying buses make it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2012 21:44:59 GMT
why dont they take the Central Line. Its right under the feet in Oxford Street!
People need to stop moaning about the Oxford Street.
Just reduce the bus routes.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 21, 2012 22:14:47 GMT
why dont they take the Central Line. Its right under the feet in Oxford Street! People need to stop moaning about the Oxford Street. Just reduce the bus routes. The Central Line is currently the busiest line on the network and is already overcrowded. Until Crossrail starts running, it's only help is the bus network alongside the line so any change should be deferred until Crossrail is up and running. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 22, 2012 17:41:04 GMT
why dont they take the Central Line. Its right under the feet in Oxford Street! People need to stop moaning about the Oxford Street. Just reduce the bus routes. You, and Mr Shop Person, need to stop taking such a ridiculously simplistic view. I saw the same spokesman person interviewed today and there was no red bus wall behind him. In fact there was no bus jam at all. Whenever the BBC does a report there is never a bus jam in camera shot. The problem with Oxford Street is there are too many shops and businesses crammed into a small area. The shop keepers want it all their own way but do nothing to help the effective operation of transport. They encourage taxis which have soaked up all the space created by reducing buses by 20%. If TfL take another 20 or 30 or 40% of buses out there will not be less congestion - there will just be zillions of taxis and poxy pedicabs taking up the space. It simply is not practical or realistic to expect everyone to take the Central Line. It is overloaded and it takes &&£&$&&$**!! ages from street to platform and back again. I would have liked to have seen a comparative timing of the reporter walking from the bus stop he got on at to where he got off but taking the tube instead. I doubt there would be much in it actually. Oxford St doesn't work anymore because the pavements have been widened and central carriageways built which means it is completely impossible for buses to pass each other. TfL did not create that mess but they have to live with it. Here is my alternative bus network with no buses in Oxford Street. 73 - Stoke Newington - Warren St 10 - Edgware Rd Stn - Hammersmith 390 - Archway - Tottenham Ct Rd Stn 13 Golders Green Station - Portman Square 139 West Hampstead - Waterloo routed via 453 route at Baker St 159 Streatham - Oxford Circus 189 Brent Cross - Baker Street Stn 15 Blackwall - Paddington routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 8 Bow Church - Holborn 25 llford - Holborn 242 No change 23 Westbourne Park - Liv St routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 176 Penge - Trafalgar Square 453 Deptford Bridge - Regent Street (takes over 15 terminal) 55 Leyton - Tottenham Ct Road 7 East Acton - Marble Arch 94 Diverted at Marble Arch to Victoria to replace route 73 6 Willesden Garage - Aldwych routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 98 Willesden Garage - Marble Arch 30 Hackney Wick - Paddington diverted at Baker St via route 27. The above is quite brutal because it has to be to avoid Marble Arch and Tottenham Ct Road being overloaded. You will note all sorts of links are broken and some roads see massive reductions in frequency. Anything is possible but think of the hundreds of thousands of people *a day* who would be worse off. In TfL's business case methodology that would be a massive negative that would not be outweighed by the cash savings from running short routes. I also think Marble Arch, Park Lane, Hyde Park Corner and Piccadilly would be in danger of being overloaded as a result of diverting at least 3 routes over that link to try to preserve east - west capacity and not leave Fleet St & Strand devoid of buses. There is no point pretending that "you just fix the buses" on Oxford Street. There are massive costs associated with changes on that scale and huge consequences - not least for the shops and business and residents in the Oxford St area. Taking the buses away is a guaranteed way to turn the place into a desert. |
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Post by ServerKing on Dec 22, 2012 19:58:49 GMT
Another great post  Sad thing is those wretched taxi's will fill the gap left by buses if they were turned away from Oxford Street... Its a fair old walk from one end to the other as well. I hate the Central Line with a passion, old knackered dirty trains, and as you said, from platform to street takes ages, the layout at Bond Street is baffling as hell... Finding the best solution will be tough, the buses bring the crowds, who hopefully spend and help our sagging economy  Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 22, 2012 22:40:23 GMT
Another great post Sad thing is those wretched taxi's will fill the gap left by buses if they were turned away from Oxford Street... Its a fair old walk from one end to the other as well. I hate the Central Line with a passion, old knackered dirty trains, and as you said, from platform to street takes ages, the layout at Bond Street is baffling as hell... Finding the best solution will be tough, the buses bring the crowds, who hopefully spend and help our sagging economy The other big issue with Oxford St at the moment is that two of the stations are subject to major works. This further constrains capacity and I believe the Central Line will have to non stop TCR as part of the station expansion / Crossrail works. This is to allow construction of new passageways and tunnels to link the Central Line to Crossrail. Bond St is also likely to be affected in a similar fashion but I'm less certain if trains will have to non stop. Works carry on for another 4-5 years. I am firmly of the view that the shop owners have no clue as to how much business arrives at their shops because people come by bus. I also think they fail to appreciate how many people who work in their shops and nearby businesses will be inconvenienced. There are also quite a lot of people who live close to Oxford St who use the buses to travel. Why should they be deprived of buses they rely on? Can you imagine the political fall out if someone said "we are going to remove all buses from Walworth Road" or "we are going to remove all buses from Brixton" (or any other major centre in London)? There would be "riots" and quite right too. It would be unacceptable and shop owners would be the first to complain at the prospective loss of passing trade. Look at what has happened because of the bridge closure in Streatham.  The other issue is that if services are cut quite severely and there are not compensating increases elsewhere then there will be fewer buses, fewer drivers, fewer mechanics etc. None of that does any good for the economy either. Do shop owners really want to be responsible for sacking bus staff?  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2012 23:51:15 GMT
Snoogle, you couldn't make the 8 shorter then it already is..  |
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Post by Volvo on Dec 23, 2012 1:33:31 GMT
I would say if your were going to cut the 73 to Warren Street I would extend it back to Tottenham or even Edmonton Green. extend the 149 back to Ponders End and get rid of the 349.
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 23, 2012 8:42:39 GMT
why dont they take the Central Line. Its right under the feet in Oxford Street! People need to stop moaning about the Oxford Street. Just reduce the bus routes. You, and Mr Shop Person, need to stop taking such a ridiculously simplistic view. I saw the same spokesman person interviewed today and there was no red bus wall behind him. In fact there was no bus jam at all. Whenever the BBC does a report there is never a bus jam in camera shot. The problem with Oxford Street is there are too many shops and businesses crammed into a small area. The shop keepers want it all their own way but do nothing to help the effective operation of transport. They encourage taxis which have soaked up all the space created by reducing buses by 20%. If TfL take another 20 or 30 or 40% of buses out there will not be less congestion - there will just be zillions of taxis and poxy pedicabs taking up the space. It simply is not practical or realistic to expect everyone to take the Central Line. It is overloaded and it takes &&£&$&&$**!! ages from street to platform and back again. I would have liked to have seen a comparative timing of the reporter walking from the bus stop he got on at to where he got off but taking the tube instead. I doubt there would be much in it actually. Oxford St doesn't work anymore because the pavements have been widened and central carriageways built which means it is completely impossible for buses to pass each other. TfL did not create that mess but they have to live with it. Here is my alternative bus network with no buses in Oxford Street. 73 - Stoke Newington - Warren St 10 - Edgware Rd Stn - Hammersmith 390 - Archway - Tottenham Ct Rd Stn 13 Golders Green Station - Portman Square 139 West Hampstead - Waterloo routed via 453 route at Baker St 159 Streatham - Oxford Circus 189 Brent Cross - Baker Street Stn 15 Blackwall - Paddington routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 8 Bow Church - Holborn 25 llford - Holborn 242 No change 23 Westbourne Park - Liv St routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 176 Penge - Trafalgar Square 453 Deptford Bridge - Regent Street (takes over 15 terminal) 55 Leyton - Tottenham Ct Road 7 East Acton - Marble Arch 94 Diverted at Marble Arch to Victoria to replace route 73 6 Willesden Garage - Aldwych routed via Piccadilly & Park Lane 98 Willesden Garage - Marble Arch 30 Hackney Wick - Paddington diverted at Baker St via route 27. The above is quite brutal because it has to be to avoid Marble Arch and Tottenham Ct Road being overloaded. You will note all sorts of links are broken and some roads see massive reductions in frequency. Anything is possible but think of the hundreds of thousands of people *a day* who would be worse off. In TfL's business case methodology that would be a massive negative that would not be outweighed by the cash savings from running short routes. I also think Marble Arch, Park Lane, Hyde Park Corner and Piccadilly would be in danger of being overloaded as a result of diverting at least 3 routes over that link to try to preserve east - west capacity and not leave Fleet St & Strand devoid of buses. There is no point pretending that "you just fix the buses" on Oxford Street. There are massive costs associated with changes on that scale and huge consequences - not least for the shops and business and residents in the Oxford St area. Taking the buses away is a guaranteed way to turn the place into a desert. Also I think the 73 should stay put and the 10 curtailed to Marble Arch coz IMO the 10 is a pointless duplicated 73 atm the moment with endless short turns. Major Trunk Routes like the 6, 7, 73 I like those ideas, but the 453 should stay put as it provides a direct link to/from Marylebone. I like the 13 idea. There are acutually too many routes serving Oxford Street for no reason and half of them carry duppys around all day. I thought the ideas I came up with through and now think I think Routes 6, 7, 23, 73, 139, 159, N7, N73, N98, N207 Should stay serving Oxford Street. Like I said in another post 390 diverted to Waterloo 159 diverted to Notting Hill Gate with a scheduled turns to Whitehall, Horse Guards. 436 extended to Paddington Basin. 30 diverted to Paddington replacing the 436 on the stand. 10 diverted to King's Cross via Edgware Road and reduce the PVR of the 18. 94 curtailed to Marble Arch 98 diverted to Lancaster Gate 13 to Marble Arch. 8 curtailed to St. Paul's and extended to Stratford City have less buses serving the traffic filled Fairfield Road via the 108 and 241. 176 curtailed to Aldwych and extended to Elmers End. 113, 189, 274 curtailed to Portman Square 137 curtailed to Marble Arch 3, 12, 25, 55, N3, N8, N55 should continue to serve Oxford Circus. Route 12 Scheduled Short Turns to Lambeth North, the 12 at the moment is over served with buses. 2 remain the same. 74 remain the same. 82 remain the same. 88 remain the same. 453 remain the same with a frequency reduction. C2 remain the same. Also the 38 should run every 8 minutes. The majority of buses I've seen on the 38 are empty. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 23, 2012 11:12:30 GMT
Also I think the 73 should stay put and the 10 curtailed to Marble Arch coz IMO the 10 is a pointless duplicated 73 atm the moment with endless short turns. Major Trunk Routes like the 6, 7, 73 I like those ideas, but the 453 should stay put as it provides a direct link to/from Marylebone. I like the 13 idea. There are acutually too many routes serving Oxford Street for no reason and half of them carry duppys around all day. I thought the ideas I came up with through and now think I think Routes 6, 7, 23, 73, 139, 159, N7, N73, N98, N207 Should stay serving Oxford Street. Like I said in another post 390 diverted to Waterloo 159 diverted to Notting Hill Gate with a scheduled turns to Whitehall, Horse Guards. 436 extended to Paddington Basin. 30 diverted to Paddington replacing the 436 on the stand. 10 diverted to King's Cross via Edgware Road and reduce the PVR of the 18. 94 curtailed to Marble Arch 98 diverted to Lancaster Gate 13 to Marble Arch. 8 curtailed to St. Paul's and extended to Stratford City have less buses serving the traffic filled Fairfield Road via the 108 and 241. 176 curtailed to Aldwych and extended to Elmers End. 113, 189, 274 curtailed to Portman Square 137 curtailed to Marble Arch 3, 12, 25, 55, N3, N8, N55 should continue to serve Oxford Circus. Route 12 Scheduled Short Turns to Lambeth North, the 12 at the moment is over served with buses. 2 remain the same. 74 remain the same. 82 remain the same. 88 remain the same. 453 remain the same with a frequency reduction. C2 remain the same. Also the 38 should run every 8 minutes. The majority of buses I've seen on the 38 are empty. I have only skimmed through your ideas. My main observation would be that it is a bit dangerous to cut frequencies on major trunk routes because they can be exceptionally busy on their suburban sections. It is not the bit in Zone 1 that makes the 18 busy - it's the very long bit west of Paddington! Sure it is busy in Zone 1 too but you'd have a lot of very fed up people if you hacked its overall frequency. I know the 38 is everyone's favourite frequency reduction target but I think this could only really be done off peak. It does get exceptionally busy in the peaks and buses run full. If you hacked the 38 to bits you simply overload the 19 in the Central area and that is already full. In Islington you transfer the load to the 73 and 476 and they're not exactly quiet either nor is the 56. There is scope to juggle stuff about but it is obviously the peak that determines fleet size, numbers of drivers etc. I think TfL take the view that there is merit in keeping buses occupied off peak *provided* they're delivering benefit. The 38 is almost certainly overbussed off peak but I don't think you could take too much off the PVR M-F so you don't make a real dent in total costs. I missed the 137 in my list but I suspect it would need to turn at Portman Square. I assumed that buses would still be able to run on the bit of Oxford St from Selfridges to Marble Arch but during the VIP days that bit is actually closed. If it was to be closed permanently then you've got real problems with Edgware Rd and Marylebone Rd and few buses serving Baker St / Gloucester Place. I also didn't cover Night Buses and I think they provide the real headache because there is no tube alternative so you can't just leave people without key links around the centre or from the centre to the suburbs. |
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Post by mre81 on Dec 23, 2012 20:41:18 GMT
It strikes me that if you replaced all the buses on Oxford Street with a trolleybus route, you'd have chaos at Marble Arch and TCR with passengers changing onto regular buses for onward journeys. If it were part of a wider network with a variety of routes, possibly yes the proposal would work.
In addition where are they going to be garaged if it's an isolated route, bearing in mind trolleybuses can't move very far on their batteries. Is a purpose built garage going to be provided on the line of route, on prime retail land?!? Or a depot hollowed out under Hyde Park???
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Post by mre81 on Dec 23, 2012 20:57:07 GMT
Personally I think a few minor frequency reductions and a few route alterations/diversions could significantly reduce the amount of buses on Oxford St:
7- withdraw between Oxford Circus and Russell Sq, diverting the 98 to Russell Sq in replacement. The OC-Holborn route is already well served so would be no great loss.
10- divert between Oxford Circus and Euston via Great Portland St and Marylebone Rd. This would open up new links, but still maintain capacity on the Hyde Park Cnr-Kings X trunk
13- withdraw between Aldwych and Trafalgar Sq which would free up about 2 buses which spend most of the day stuck on the Strand. Also divert it via Wigmore St instead of Oxford St.
15- extend it up to Portland Place doing the loop taken by the 88/453 to terminate/turn round
73- divert it at Marble Arch to Notting Hill Gate and divert the 390 to Victoria in its place. On the MA-NHG section the 390 is quick and lightly used, so the 73's PVR could be reduced overall whilst maintaining frequency on the rest of the route. The 390 wouldn't need a massive increase, so the overall amount of buses on Oxford St could be reduced
159- cut it back to Marble Arch. I'm not convined the 23 and 7 can't cope with the amount of passengers that go to Paddington, and by cutting the 159 back you could reduce the PVR
189- divert it from Baker St via Marylebone Rd and Great Portland St to Regent St using the 15's vacated stand.
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