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Post by southlondon413 on May 23, 2024 19:31:35 GMT
Excluding LTs could standards Hybrids not be simply converted to full-Electric? They have much smaller engines and already have batteries with an electric motor so could be easier? Arguably you could convert serial hybrid buses to full electric by replacing the diesel engine with batteries. That would cover most of the Alexander Dennis Hybrids and also the LTs but would not cover buses on the Volvo chassis (Wrightbus, a few Alexander Dennis and MCV). Having said that the conversion of LT11 to full electric resulted in the replacement of the whole drivetrain which means that any bus could be converted including pure diesels subject to any weight constraints of the batteries. LT11 is hardly a model of success, it hasn’t been used since mid-December and even before that its appearance was sporadic throughout November. I don’t think we’ll be seeing any more diesel/hybrid conversions to EV.
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Post by redbus on May 23, 2024 20:31:37 GMT
Arguably you could convert serial hybrid buses to full electric by replacing the diesel engine with batteries. That would cover most of the Alexander Dennis Hybrids and also the LTs but would not cover buses on the Volvo chassis (Wrightbus, a few Alexander Dennis and MCV). Having said that the conversion of LT11 to full electric resulted in the replacement of the whole drivetrain which means that any bus could be converted including pure diesels subject to any weight constraints of the batteries. LT11 is hardly a model of success, it hasn’t been used since mid-December and even before that its appearance was sporadic throughout November. I don’t think we’ll be seeing any more diesel/hybrid conversions to EV. I think it is too early to tell as we don't know the whole story on LT11. If you look at how many appearances it has made, then I agree it doesn't look good. On the other hand there may be some re-design, it sometimes takes a few goes to get technology like this right. There are also I suspect other suppliers who do conversions, so while the omens don't look good I wouldn't rule anything out yet.
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Post by southlondon413 on May 23, 2024 20:40:35 GMT
LT11 is hardly a model of success, it hasn’t been used since mid-December and even before that its appearance was sporadic throughout November. I don’t think we’ll be seeing any more diesel/hybrid conversions to EV. I think it is too early to tell as we don't know the whole story on LT11. If you look at how many appearances it has made, then I agree it doesn't look good. On the other hand there may be some re-design, it sometimes takes a few goes to get technology like this right. There are also I suspect other suppliers who do conversions, so while the omens don't look good I wouldn't rule anything out yet. It all comes down to cost. If the cost to convert a bus is only marginally less than an entirely new bus it just makes sense to buy new. There have been numerous attempts at EV conversion in the past and every attempt has failed. I don’t see LT11 as being successful, not when it’s sat at the back of CELF gathering dust.
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Post by yunus on May 23, 2024 21:29:34 GMT
Arguably you could convert serial hybrid buses to full electric by replacing the diesel engine with batteries. That would cover most of the Alexander Dennis Hybrids and also the LTs but would not cover buses on the Volvo chassis (Wrightbus, a few Alexander Dennis and MCV). Having said that the conversion of LT11 to full electric resulted in the replacement of the whole drivetrain which means that any bus could be converted including pure diesels subject to any weight constraints of the batteries. LT11 is hardly a model of success, it hasn’t been used since mid-December and even before that its appearance was sporadic throughout November. I don’t think we’ll be seeing any more diesel/hybrid conversions to EV. You are more than likely right re the conversions. Some Garages due EVs have not even started the infrastructure works.
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Post by southlondon413 on May 23, 2024 21:32:49 GMT
LT11 is hardly a model of success, it hasn’t been used since mid-December and even before that its appearance was sporadic throughout November. I don’t think we’ll be seeing any more diesel/hybrid conversions to EV. You are more than likely right re the conversions. Some Garages due EVs have not even started the infrastructure works. Um, I’m talking about vehicles being converted like LT11 was and not routes being converted. Route conversion will almost definitely happen with garage infrastructure installed.
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Post by yunus on May 23, 2024 22:41:35 GMT
You are more than likely right re the conversions. Some Garages due EVs have not even started the infrastructure works. Um, I’m talking about vehicles being converted like LT11 was and not routes being converted. Route conversion will almost definitely happen with garage infrastructure installed. Apologies had a long day, did not read your initial post clearly.
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exbox
Conductor
Posts: 125
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Post by exbox on May 25, 2024 8:56:31 GMT
Excluding LTs could standards Hybrids not be simply converted to full-Electric? They have much smaller engines and already have batteries with an electric motor so could be easier? It’s technically possible but you’d end up redesigning something which was designed as a hybrid - so you could run into weight issues for a start. The location of the engine might not be the best location for traction batteries etc. The weight could be unevenly distributed. What sort of design life would such a vehicle have? The drivetrain would still be good after the bodywork had fallen apart. What about warranties? Who repairs defects? The different manufacturers would blame each other - that already happens to some extent. In short, you’d probably end up spending 75% of the cost of a new bus for a Heath Robinson contraption with an uncertain design life. Much less risk involved in buying new.
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Post by cl54 on May 25, 2024 14:40:52 GMT
Excluding LTs could standards Hybrids not be simply converted to full-Electric? They have much smaller engines and already have batteries with an electric motor so could be easier? It’s technically possible but you’d end up redesigning something which was designed as a hybrid - so you could run into weight issues for a start. The location of the engine might not be the best location for traction batteries etc. The weight could be unevenly distributed. What sort of design life would such a vehicle have? The drivetrain would still be good after the bodywork had fallen apart. What about warranties? Who repairs defects? The different manufacturers would blame each other - that already happens to some extent. In short, you’d probably end up spending 75% of the cost of a new bus for a Heath Robinson contraption with an uncertain design life. Much less risk involved in buying new. The company that converted LT11 has done the same on other vehicles. They told me the project for TfL has not finished. If the 2030 deadline is to be met it may be necessary to use conversions if the bus industry can't supply enough new buses.
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exbox
Conductor
Posts: 125
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Post by exbox on May 25, 2024 17:16:32 GMT
It’s technically possible but you’d end up redesigning something which was designed as a hybrid - so you could run into weight issues for a start. The location of the engine might not be the best location for traction batteries etc. The weight could be unevenly distributed. What sort of design life would such a vehicle have? The drivetrain would still be good after the bodywork had fallen apart. What about warranties? Who repairs defects? The different manufacturers would blame each other - that already happens to some extent. In short, you’d probably end up spending 75% of the cost of a new bus for a Heath Robinson contraption with an uncertain design life. Much less risk involved in buying new. The company that converted LT11 has done the same on other vehicles. They told me the project for TfL has not finished. If the 2030 deadline is to be met it may be necessary to use conversions if the bus industry can't supply enough new buses. Yutong alone could manufacture the 6000 odd buses required over the next 6 years. It would represent about 4% of their annual output.
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Post by cl54 on May 25, 2024 17:35:47 GMT
The company that converted LT11 has done the same on other vehicles. They told me the project for TfL has not finished. If the 2030 deadline is to be met it may be necessary to use conversions if the bus industry can't supply enough new buses. Yutong alone could manufacture the 6000 odd buses required over the next 6 years. It would represent about 4% of their annual output. But not until they produce a vehicle that meets the specification for London.
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edvid
Conductor
Posts: 81
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Post by edvid on Jun 21, 2024 15:16:31 GMT
Wrightbus have joined the repowering game, establishing a subsidiary (called NewPower) at Arrival's former HQ in Bicester. This could be significant as they're the first OEM to get involved in the UK market; some First Bus (to-be-)ex-diesel StreetDecks can be seen in the pictures. Here's a list of other recent or active diesel/hybrid-to-electric conversion schemes that I know of: Diamond Bus / Magtec - 5 x MAN 12.240 Plaxton Centro Big Bus Tours / Equipmake - 20 x open-top Anhui Ankai GS3 Tootbus / Magtec - 15 x open-top Volvo B9TL Optare Visionaire Lothian Buses / Kleanbus - 18 x open-top Volvo B5TL Wright Eclipse Gemini 3 Golden Tours / Equipmake - over 10 x open-top Volvo B5TL MCV eVoSeti And yes, most of the above is for sightseeing services, which I understand typically have a smaller impact on operational bus life than regular passenger services.
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edvid
Conductor
Posts: 81
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Post by edvid on Jun 21, 2024 16:03:00 GMT
There's also an article by Autocar (who were the first to cover the BYD BD11 launch), noting that Wrightbus are in talks with TfL over the possibility of New Routemaster conversion. The chances of it going ahead with Wrightbus carrying it out (as opposed to Equipmake or another third party) are higher, though perhaps the jury's still out on that coming to pass. Wrightbus will prioritise Gemini 3, then Gemini 2 repowering regardless.
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 21, 2024 16:22:57 GMT
There's also an article by Autocar (who were the first to cover the BYD BD11 launch), noting that Wrightbus are in talks with TfL over the possibility of New Routemaster conversion. The chances of it going ahead with Wrightbus carrying it out (as opposed to Equipmake or another third party) are higher, though perhaps the jury's still out on that coming to pass. Wrightbus will prioritise Gemini 3, then Gemini 2 repowering regardless. I can’t see TfL wanting to shell out another £200k per vehicle. Even with a hefty volume discount they probably wouldn’t get much change from £150m if they were all done. Even then no conversion has been fully successful. It’s a lot of money to waste when TfL could likely get the same sort of discount buying brand new if it were to negotiates and then allocate vehicles to operators itself. Similar to how TfGM is running things.
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exbox
Conductor
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Post by exbox on Jun 21, 2024 16:55:17 GMT
I can’t see TfL wanting to shell out another £200k per vehicle. Even with a hefty volume discount they probably wouldn’t get much change from £150m if they were all done. Even then no conversion has been fully successful. It’s a lot of money to waste when TfL could likely get the same sort of discount buying brand new if it were to negotiates and then allocate vehicles to operators itself. Similar to how TfGM is running things. Agreed. Any conversion would be suboptimal against a purpose built EV and if I were Wrightbus I'd be quoting top dollar for the work. The business case for such a conversion would surely not add up, but having said that, the blasted things were built without any kind of business case so who knows?
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 21, 2024 20:50:54 GMT
I can’t see TfL wanting to shell out another £200k per vehicle. Even with a hefty volume discount they probably wouldn’t get much change from £150m if they were all done. Even then no conversion has been fully successful. It’s a lot of money to waste when TfL could likely get the same sort of discount buying brand new if it were to negotiates and then allocate vehicles to operators itself. Similar to how TfGM is running things. Agreed. Any conversion would be suboptimal against a purpose built EV and if I were Wrightbus I'd be quoting top dollar for the work. The business case for such a conversion would surely not add up, but having said that, the blasted things were built without any kind of business case so who knows? I suppose LTs are unique in that they would be difficult to sell for use outside of London (compared to conventional hybrids) - as well as being owned by TFL. So an electric conversion for further use beyond 2030 might be better value than scrapping them? That said, the oldest LTs date back to around 2012 - so I'm not sure how long they would last beyond 2030 anyway, regardless of whether hybrid or electric.
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