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Post by wirewiper on Feb 24, 2021 18:49:19 GMT
Other major things I’ve noticed is the ADL/BYD ones have upper deck air cooling as is normal on all DD deliveries in London these days..And the Optare ones don’t...I thought that was also a TfL requirement? Unless they got an exemption.. The Optare ones also have the lower deck backward facing seats when the ADL ones are all forward facing... Thirdly, it might just be me, but I feel that the upper deck on the Optare is really low - is it a low height Bus or does it just seem that way? And finally, I still hate that huge space between the upper deck nearside front seat and the front window.. I reckon if it were possible to get the Optare Metrodecker interior layout with the Enviro400 City body styling, we would have the perfect electric 'decker!
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2021 19:51:27 GMT
The BYD electrics at HT are much loved by drivers, both the single & double decks. No reliability issues either. Optare... oh dear. Forever in trouble. Usually having to swap vehicles around due to charging issues. 134's use the 125 hybrids in the evening by means of a vehicle swap at Tally Ho Corner when a 125 runs empty from Colindale to PB. I think that gives the answer to what electric vehicle Metroline will choose in the future... Does it? I’m not sure operators choose vehicles based on the likes/dislikes of drivers. Metroline will look at things like costs, manufacturing demand, etc.
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Post by dashing0ne on Feb 24, 2021 20:08:15 GMT
Other major things I’ve noticed is the ADL/BYD ones have upper deck air cooling as is normal on all DD deliveries in London these days..And the Optare ones don’t...I thought that was also a TfL requirement? Unless they got an exemption.. The Optare ones also have the lower deck backward facing seats when the ADL ones are all forward facing... Thirdly, it might just be me, but I feel that the upper deck on the Optare is really low - is it a low height Bus or does it just seem that way? And finally, I still hate that huge space between the upper deck nearside front seat and the front window.. I reckon if it were possible to get the Optare Metrodecker interior layout with the Enviro400 City body styling, we would have the perfect electric 'decker! Agreed as the body in interior and exterior with ADL is much better (imo Optare Metrodecker's look ugly) but the loud whining electric motor is much better than the close-to-silent ADL BYD vehicle.
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Post by wirewiper on Feb 25, 2021 12:10:57 GMT
If you want a bus to serve those roads, then I disagree, all those things should be viable. At end of day it will not just be buses that benefit, but the wider community The 10.9m will still continue to be produced alongside the 10.3m version. Routes that cannot take the 10.9m version may have the 10.3m version as an option, or some other bus. The routes that cannot take the 10.9m buses are currently not using 10.9m buses, and are using buses of 10.2/3/4/5m length, so the capacity decrease will not be of much. And it's not just the London market that has to be taken into consideration. There will be increasing demand for shorter-wheelbase vehicles from other towns and cities, especially those with constrained historic centres where the presence of zero-emission buses will be particularly welcomed.
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Post by SILENCED on Feb 25, 2021 12:27:17 GMT
The 10.9m will still continue to be produced alongside the 10.3m version. Routes that cannot take the 10.9m version may have the 10.3m version as an option, or some other bus. The routes that cannot take the 10.9m buses are currently not using 10.9m buses, and are using buses of 10.2/3/4/5m length, so the capacity decrease will not be of much. And it's not just the London market that has to be taken into consideration. There will be increasing demand for shorter-wheelbase vehicles from other towns and cities, especially those with constrained historic centres where the presence of zero-emission buses will be particularly welcomed. Did Stagecoach ever purchase anything other than LWB Olympians for operations outside of London? So why would things change now?
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Post by vjaska on Feb 25, 2021 12:48:16 GMT
And it's not just the London market that has to be taken into consideration. There will be increasing demand for shorter-wheelbase vehicles from other towns and cities, especially those with constrained historic centres where the presence of zero-emission buses will be particularly welcomed. Did Stagecoach ever purchase anything other than LWB Olympians for operations outside of London? So why would things change now? Just like with your earlier RM comparison, a LWB Olympian doesn't compare to the LWB buses of today when a LWB Olympian is much shorter than a LWB Enviro 400.
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Post by SILENCED on Feb 25, 2021 12:51:23 GMT
Did Stagecoach ever purchase anything other than LWB Olympians for operations outside of London? So why would things change now? Just like with your earlier RM comparison, a LWB Olympian doesn't compare to the LWB buses of today when a LWB Olympian is much shorter than a LWB Enviro 400. OK, are they currently (last known) ordering SWB or LWB double deck buses for outside London? Let's not even think about the 14m buses they use on Megabus routes!
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Post by ak121 on Feb 25, 2021 14:09:59 GMT
Optare was never popular in the TfL market but present. Same is happening now, ADL (Wright formerly was) is always dominant. The OPT Metrodecker EV definetley has poetential. I think the body itself is very unpopular, maybe having the electric vehicle in a Wright or ADL body, then they would get orders if cheaper compared to the BYD/ADL electric bus. So far, except for TT all orders with Optare were due to length restrictions. Now ADL will provide 10.3m buses Optare are in a big problem. GAL's order will probably be the first and last. No orders from other operators except for TT in 2020. Metroline bought both types to compare; do any Metroline staff have a clue which is more popular and liked by the company and its status? I wonder why TT have opted for Optare as no other operator did, will TT continue with Optare and switch to ADL? If that were to happen Optare would have no permanent buyer in London . But tbf Optare was always just a side-kick company in London. Tower Transit have a habit of ordering the cheapest option they can which will probably explain the costs. BYD equipment is also very cumbersome and more expensive to install as opposed to Optare equipment as the Optare equipment is effectively a mainline connection while BYD connections have a separate power supply. Optare buses have the power supply built into the bus. This may explain the vast array of vehicles that TT has ordered in the past: from DMVs to WVs, VHs to MVs to WHs. I think TT is much more price conscious rather than prioritising fleet uniformity. We've seen most operators sticking to certain models and changing at the last resort, e.g. Metroline ordering E200s and VWHs (except for the 332's TEHs), until they opted for VMHs due to Wright's bodywork issues. RATP ordering E200s across their operations and LU sticking to VHs with LS sticking to ADHs, Stagecoach with E200/400s
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Post by snowman on Feb 25, 2021 14:11:09 GMT
Just like with your earlier RM comparison, a LWB Olympian doesn't compare to the LWB buses of today when a LWB Olympian is much shorter than a LWB Enviro 400. OK, are they currently (last known) ordering SWB or LWB double deck buses for outside London? Let's not even think about the 14m buses they use on Megabus routes! I believe for inter-urban work the Scania chassis is used 10.9m (not sure if any are 11.5m versions) Pretty sure majority of others are 10.9m version, which is medium length, as also a 11.5m version (LWB is a bit confusing as a term when applied to middle length, but often done in London where no long versions exist) Some of the Gold spec buses might be 11.5m versions, but not sure
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 25, 2021 14:44:13 GMT
Tower Transit have a habit of ordering the cheapest option they can which will probably explain the costs. BYD equipment is also very cumbersome and more expensive to install as opposed to Optare equipment as the Optare equipment is effectively a mainline connection while BYD connections have a separate power supply. Optare buses have the power supply built into the bus. This may explain the vast array of vehicles that TT has ordered in the past: from DMVs to WVs, VHs to MVs to WHs. I think TT is much more price conscious rather than prioritising fleet uniformity. We've seen most operators sticking to certain models and changing at the last resort, e.g. Metroline ordering E200s and VWHs (except for the 332's TEHs), until they opted for VMHs due to Wright's bodywork issues. RATP ordering E200s across their operations and LU sticking to VHs with LS sticking to ADHs, Stagecoach with E200/400s Yep, also re-inforces the price fluctuations buses tend to go through. The Enviro MMCs have never been the cheapest in the range which explains why they have pretty much no presence in the Tower Fleet, while the Gemini 3 was the cheaper option prior to being undercut by the EvoSeti, before the standard Hybrids were undercut in price by HEV96s and their cheaper technology.
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Post by ADH45258 on Feb 25, 2021 15:49:54 GMT
Tower Transit have a habit of ordering the cheapest option they can which will probably explain the costs. BYD equipment is also very cumbersome and more expensive to install as opposed to Optare equipment as the Optare equipment is effectively a mainline connection while BYD connections have a separate power supply. Optare buses have the power supply built into the bus. This may explain the vast array of vehicles that TT has ordered in the past: from DMVs to WVs, VHs to MVs to WHs. I think TT is much more price conscious rather than prioritising fleet uniformity. We've seen most operators sticking to certain models and changing at the last resort, e.g. Metroline ordering E200s and VWHs (except for the 332's TEHs), until they opted for VMHs due to Wright's bodywork issues. RATP ordering E200s across their operations and LU sticking to VHs with LS sticking to ADHs, Stagecoach with E200/400s I think it's got to the point now where all operators are ordering standardised types for the majority of orders, though sometimes changing what that standard type is. Go Ahead were probably the last operator to dual-source, with a period of a mix of EHs, WHVs, MHVs, WSs and the earlier SEes, but soon opted to only order ADL products, with the newest hybrid batches all being EHs. While the switch to all new vehicles being electric has resulted in the majority of new vehicles ordered being BYD-ADLs, I think there would be a similar situation even if diesels and hybrids were still being ordered - particularly with the issues around Wright - and some improvements with the ADL range such as smart hybrids being introduced. Just before electrics were required for all new vehicle orders, I think every operator were exclusively ordering ADL products for both SDs and DDs, with the main exception being Metroline ordering VMHs. While Metroline will soon have 3 new types between the 7/43/134, they had to order two different types for the 43/134 tender, and I think the WHDs were ordered by TFL. Tower Transit does seem to be another exception to all of the above, with vehicle order choices often based on the cheapest options at the time. Will be interesting to see if this continues as additional electric vehicles are available to order, or if they continue to order OEs. Plus whether they choose Metrocity EVs for SD orders, and if the same types are ordered for both X and LI.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 25, 2021 18:26:05 GMT
This may explain the vast array of vehicles that TT has ordered in the past: from DMVs to WVs, VHs to MVs to WHs. I think TT is much more price conscious rather than prioritising fleet uniformity. We've seen most operators sticking to certain models and changing at the last resort, e.g. Metroline ordering E200s and VWHs (except for the 332's TEHs), until they opted for VMHs due to Wright's bodywork issues. RATP ordering E200s across their operations and LU sticking to VHs with LS sticking to ADHs, Stagecoach with E200/400s I think it's got to the point now where all operators are ordering standardised types for the majority of orders, though sometimes changing what that standard type is. Go Ahead were probably the last operator to dual-source, with a period of a mix of EHs, WHVs, MHVs, WSs and the earlier SEes, but soon opted to only order ADL products, with the newest hybrid batches all being EHs. While the switch to all new vehicles being electric has resulted in the majority of new vehicles ordered being BYD-ADLs, I think there would be a similar situation even if diesels and hybrids were still being ordered - particularly with the issues around Wright - and some improvements with the ADL range such as smart hybrids being introduced. Just before electrics were required for all new vehicle orders, I think every operator were exclusively ordering ADL products for both SDs and DDs, with the main exception being Metroline ordering VMHs. While Metroline will soon have 3 new types between the 7/43/134, they had to order two different types for the 43/134 tender, and I think the WHDs were ordered by TFL. Tower Transit does seem to be another exception to all of the above, with vehicle order choices often based on the cheapest options at the time. Will be interesting to see if this continues as additional electric vehicles are available to order, or if they continue to order OEs. Plus whether they choose Metrocity EVs for SD orders, and if the same types are ordered for both X and LI. I wonder if it's a case of a cheaper long term cost when one type is standardised upon, not to mention any bulk discounts. Just looking at the recent RATP order, I heavily doubt every single one of those BYDs was brought on list price, the sheer size of that order must have result in some substantial discounts. When you get discounts on the better bus option then it's almost a no brainer option to take it. Metroline is one company I'm interested in to see which they will opt for in terms of electrics, apart form HT and PB potentially standardising on their respective type, all the other garages are a free for all as to which manufacturer gets there first. Can see both ADL and Optare competing here to gain Metroline's favour.
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Post by ADH45258 on Feb 25, 2021 20:42:07 GMT
I think it's got to the point now where all operators are ordering standardised types for the majority of orders, though sometimes changing what that standard type is. Go Ahead were probably the last operator to dual-source, with a period of a mix of EHs, WHVs, MHVs, WSs and the earlier SEes, but soon opted to only order ADL products, with the newest hybrid batches all being EHs. While the switch to all new vehicles being electric has resulted in the majority of new vehicles ordered being BYD-ADLs, I think there would be a similar situation even if diesels and hybrids were still being ordered - particularly with the issues around Wright - and some improvements with the ADL range such as smart hybrids being introduced. Just before electrics were required for all new vehicle orders, I think every operator were exclusively ordering ADL products for both SDs and DDs, with the main exception being Metroline ordering VMHs. While Metroline will soon have 3 new types between the 7/43/134, they had to order two different types for the 43/134 tender, and I think the WHDs were ordered by TFL. Tower Transit does seem to be another exception to all of the above, with vehicle order choices often based on the cheapest options at the time. Will be interesting to see if this continues as additional electric vehicles are available to order, or if they continue to order OEs. Plus whether they choose Metrocity EVs for SD orders, and if the same types are ordered for both X and LI. I wonder if it's a case of a cheaper long term cost when one type is standardised upon, not to mention any bulk discounts. Just looking at the recent RATP order, I heavily doubt every single one of those BYDs was brought on list price, the sheer size of that order must have result in some substantial discounts. When you get discounts on the better bus option then it's almost a no brainer option to take it. Metroline is one company I'm interested in to see which they will opt for in terms of electrics, apart form HT and PB potentially standardising on their respective type, all the other garages are a free for all as to which manufacturer gets there first. Can see both ADL and Optare competing here to gain Metroline's favour. With Metroline, I'm not sure they will order any more Optare products away from PB if the 134's OMEs continue to have reliability issues - though these were the first batch of this type so might be a unique issue. I think Metroline's orders will mostly depend on when the MCV/Volvo EV is introduced, and when they next need to order EVs for a new contract. I wonder if there might also eventually be an electric SD from Volvo/MCV - the Evora is available at at shorter length of about 10.8m. Otherwise, it will interesting to see if Metroline order more BELs for future electric SD awards (perhaps the 143/C11?), or if they perhaps opt for the Metrocity EV. Another question is whether ADL introduce a shorter, single-door E200EV at some point. This could be possible, as the 9.7m version wasn't known about until the 100's order. Otherwise, if operators have to order electric Streetlites or Solo SRs for certain routes, they may opt for other Wright or Optare EVs for other routes at the same garage. I wonder if any operators will order the Streetdeck EV in the future?
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Post by capitalomnibus on Feb 26, 2021 0:12:31 GMT
Did Stagecoach ever purchase anything other than LWB Olympians for operations outside of London? So why would things change now? Just like with your earlier RM comparison, a LWB Olympian doesn't compare to the LWB buses of today when a LWB Olympian is much shorter than a LWB Enviro 400. IIRC the long wheelbase Olympians were 10.3m long
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Post by vjaska on Feb 26, 2021 0:47:05 GMT
Just like with your earlier RM comparison, a LWB Olympian doesn't compare to the LWB buses of today when a LWB Olympian is much shorter than a LWB Enviro 400. IIRC the long wheelbase Olympians were 10.3m long That's correct and a Euro VI LWB Enviro 400 ended up being 11m and that's ignoring the examples Reading took which were longer at 11.3m which proves my point.
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