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Post by vjaska on Apr 4, 2013 23:13:46 GMT
The debate has been very interesting. I'm not sure anyone really understands why the Ilford - City bus corridor remains so popular. The trains on the Shenfield line are jammed full in the rush hour as is the Central Line. The whole corridor is grossly overloaded. I suspect will simply keep getting worse - especially if Docklands and the Olympic Park keep developing thus increasing demand for east-west travel near the route 25 corridor. Crossrail may make a dent - partly because the frequency might be a bit higher and trains longer. However the biggest change will be with fares. People travelling into town currently have to pay for a combined LU / NR fare if changing to the tube at Stratford or Liv St and heading to Z1 or beyond. I assume TfL will move Crossrail on to the TfL PAYG tariff and this will cause fares east of Stratford to fall as the Z1 "through fare" premium" will disappear. For all those saying people won't sit on a bus for over an hour then I think they're wrong. People quite clearly do sit on buses for that long even where a rail route exists. There are several factors - buses are more "door to door", fares and passes are vastly cheaper than rail, there is not quite the same horrific scale of crush and overcrowding on buses as there is on the rail network. Some people also cannot cope with tunnels and confined spaces so they will opt for buses. There is a significant slice of travellers that are money poor but relatively time rich - they'll tolerate bus travel rather than use the rail network to save money. This means there will be continued demand for longer distance bus travel. Moz has made several references to the high demand for early morning journeys on the 133 into the City from South London - largely cleaning and lower paid staff heading in to work. I expect TfL will be reviewing all bus services in areas where Crossrail and the enhanced Thameslink services will run. There is loads of precedent of bus coverage being reduced / changed when new high capacity rail links are added. It will be very interesting to see what, if anything, they feel they can do on the Ilford - City / West End corridor. Logic says Crossrail should take a lot of route 25 / 86 patronage but I wouldn't bet on that happening! Worth bearing in mind that Mr Hendy has recently said he expects Crossrail to be full within weeks of it opening  I agree I would rather use a bus than train I find it less stressful on me and my wallet ;D I'm the same as well, I'd rather the bus than the train just because trains are far too expensive, especially on certain lines. It's cheaper to go London to Cambridge than London to Brighton despite Cambridge being a lot further from London than Brighton. |
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Post by joefrombow on Apr 4, 2013 23:13:50 GMT
I was on a 25 today took me 45 minutes to get from Bow DLR to the stop after Stratford Broadway !! About 36 minutes of that was from the DLR to the roundabout !! (it's because the A12 slip road is closed) so there was a significantly higher amount of traffic , Under East London operation drivers used to be told by the controller to use the flyover , I still see it happening now but in the opposite direction and dont know if they were told too or just in a rush , but realistically if the blackwall tunnel is closed or there is an accident along the A12 northern approach then it has a knock on effect on all routes in the Bow , Poplar area so I think adding new routes and keeping the 25 as it were wouldnt really change anything or by overbussing the corridor , the best thing to do would be to cut the 25 to Stratford City via Stratford to Oxford Circus and have a new route from Aldgate to Ilford but by takin some of the buses out of the 25 PVR for the new route . The traffic was also that bad a 205 had to use the flyover and turn right into rick roberts way in stratford adjacent to warton road use the roundabout and come back over the flyover to avoid it so extending the 205 definetly a no no not in the day anyway .
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Post by IanF on Apr 4, 2013 23:32:17 GMT
The debate has been very interesting. I'm not sure anyone really understands why the Ilford - City bus corridor remains so popular. The trains on the Shenfield line are jammed full in the rush hour as is the Central Line. The whole corridor is grossly overloaded. I suspect will simply keep getting worse - especially if Docklands and the Olympic Park keep developing thus increasing demand for east-west travel near the route 25 corridor. Crossrail may make a dent - partly because the frequency might be a bit higher and trains longer. However the biggest change will be with fares. People travelling into town currently have to pay for a combined LU / NR fare if changing to the tube at Stratford or Liv St and heading to Z1 or beyond. I assume TfL will move Crossrail on to the TfL PAYG tariff and this will cause fares east of Stratford to fall as the Z1 "through fare" premium" will disappear. For all those saying people won't sit on a bus for over an hour then I think they're wrong. People quite clearly do sit on buses for that long even where a rail route exists. There are several factors - buses are more "door to door", fares and passes are vastly cheaper than rail, there is not quite the same horrific scale of crush and overcrowding on buses as there is on the rail network. Some people also cannot cope with tunnels and confined spaces so they will opt for buses. There is a significant slice of travellers that are money poor but relatively time rich - they'll tolerate bus travel rather than use the rail network to save money. This means there will be continued demand for longer distance bus travel. Moz has made several references to the high demand for early morning journeys on the 133 into the City from South London - largely cleaning and lower paid staff heading in to work. I expect TfL will be reviewing all bus services in areas where Crossrail and the enhanced Thameslink services will run. There is loads of precedent of bus coverage being reduced / changed when new high capacity rail links are added. It will be very interesting to see what, if anything, they feel they can do on the Ilford - City / West End corridor. Logic says Crossrail should take a lot of route 25 / 86 patronage but I wouldn't bet on that happening! Worth bearing in mind that Mr Hendy has recently said he expects Crossrail to be full within weeks of it opening I agree I would rather use a bus than train I find it less stressful on me and my wallet ;D If I get interviews in London and the are in the afternoon then I'll use the buses to go up there because its cheaper and i can use slightly different routings to see more of London each time. |
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Post by westhamgeezer on Apr 5, 2013 9:18:51 GMT
From my point of view it would it would be wise to see what happens say 6+ months after the opening of crossrail to analyse the change in demand for local buses. History shows that what is predicted to happen doesnt always happen in reality, Im thinking about the Croydon changes connected to the opening of Tramlink. Without knowing crossrail fares (are they going to be Zonal and the same as the Tube/Overground network or higher??) A lot of the bus routes in London are long historic links and have remained successful for a reason......Personally, I dont see this changing
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 9:27:48 GMT
From my point of view it would it would be wise to see what happens say 6+ months after the opening of crossrail to analyse the change in demand for local buses. History shows that what is predicted to happen doesnt always happen in reality, Im thinking about the Croydon changes connected to the opening of Tramlink. Without knowing crossrail fares (are they going to be Zonal and the same as the Tube/Overground network or higher??) A lot of the bus routes in London are long historic links and have remained successful for a reason......Personally, I dont see this changing I think it is generally easy to predict what will happen, the JLE extension changes for example all seemed to work fine. Tramlink changes were made by those who hadn't got a clue  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 9:35:56 GMT
The debate has been very interesting. I'm not sure anyone really understands why the Ilford - City bus corridor remains so popular. The trains on the Shenfield line are jammed full in the rush hour as is the Central Line. The whole corridor is grossly overloaded. I suspect will simply keep getting worse - especially if Docklands and the Olympic Park keep developing thus increasing demand for east-west travel near the route 25 corridor. Crossrail may make a dent - partly because the frequency might be a bit higher and trains longer. However the biggest change will be with fares. People travelling into town currently have to pay for a combined LU / NR fare if changing to the tube at Stratford or Liv St and heading to Z1 or beyond. I assume TfL will move Crossrail on to the TfL PAYG tariff and this will cause fares east of Stratford to fall as the Z1 "through fare" premium" will disappear. For all those saying people won't sit on a bus for over an hour then I think they're wrong. People quite clearly do sit on buses for that long even where a rail route exists. There are several factors - buses are more "door to door", fares and passes are vastly cheaper than rail, there is not quite the same horrific scale of crush and overcrowding on buses as there is on the rail network. Some people also cannot cope with tunnels and confined spaces so they will opt for buses. There is a significant slice of travellers that are money poor but relatively time rich - they'll tolerate bus travel rather than use the rail network to save money. This means there will be continued demand for longer distance bus travel. Moz has made several references to the high demand for early morning journeys on the 133 into the City from South London - largely cleaning and lower paid staff heading in to work. I expect TfL will be reviewing all bus services in areas where Crossrail and the enhanced Thameslink services will run. There is loads of precedent of bus coverage being reduced / changed when new high capacity rail links are added. It will be very interesting to see what, if anything, they feel they can do on the Ilford - City / West End corridor. Logic says Crossrail should take a lot of route 25 / 86 patronage but I wouldn't bet on that happening! Worth bearing in mind that Mr Hendy has recently said he expects Crossrail to be full within weeks of it opening I think the popularity of the East London to Central London corridor can be put simply down to a sheer number of people. Population growth is much faster in East London than any other part of London, in particular the boroughs of Tower Hamlets and Newham. A lot of these people are quite poor, and so the "time rich, money poor" situation is certainly applicable. In particular Tower Hamlets has one of the highest rates of poverty in the UK - with train fares reasonably high it's understandable why people will always seek the cheapest option. Accessibility issues are also a factor and the patronage of the 25 is largely made up by the elderly - improvements to access at Whitechapel for Crossrail could certainly be a factor in change. What I'm hoping does not happen (as another poster mentioned) is another Croydon Tramlink situations, where well-established bus links were cut apart and trams only partially covered them. The tram does not provide the same "door-to-door" service as a bus and neither will Crossrail - I do hope any changes bear this in mind. I think a cautionary period of seeing how demand fluctates would be the most appropriate course of action - a lot of cuts in anticipation of a new rail link would probably cause chaos if they're on one of the busiest bus routes in London! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 9:39:02 GMT
I agree I would rather use a bus than train I find it less stressful on me and my wallet ;D If I get interviews in London and the are in the afternoon then I'll use the buses to go up there because its cheaper and i can use slightly different routings to see more of London each time. I'm using the bus to and from an interview in Notting Hill on Monday, and I will use the bus to and from work from then on (if I get the job!) I don't see the value in only earning £30 for a day and then spending a sizeable chunk of it on a train up there - I would rather go for value for money and use my Travelcard, even if it does mean sitting on a bus for an hour. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 9:47:40 GMT
From my point of view it would it would be wise to see what happens say 6+ months after the opening of crossrail to analyse the change in demand for local buses. History shows that what is predicted to happen doesnt always happen in reality, Im thinking about the Croydon changes connected to the opening of Tramlink. Without knowing crossrail fares (are they going to be Zonal and the same as the Tube/Overground network or higher??) A lot of the bus routes in London are long historic links and have remained successful for a reason......Personally, I dont see this changing I think it is generally easy to predict what will happen, the JLE extension changes for example all seemed to work fine. Tramlink changes were made by those who hadn't got a clue Original proposal for the JLE was to cut the 188 back to Elephant and Castle - not sure that would've worked fine. Luckily it never went ahead. |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 5, 2013 13:18:04 GMT
From my point of view it would it would be wise to see what happens say 6+ months after the opening of crossrail to analyse the change in demand for local buses. History shows that what is predicted to happen doesnt always happen in reality, Im thinking about the Croydon changes connected to the opening of Tramlink. Without knowing crossrail fares (are they going to be Zonal and the same as the Tube/Overground network or higher??) A lot of the bus routes in London are long historic links and have remained successful for a reason......Personally, I dont see this changing TfL will take over the Shenfield line services in 2015 in advance of Crossrail opening. As TfL have already said they will operate a concession (like London Overground) I would be 99.9% confident that the TfL farescale will apply and not the NR one. As TfL do not charge the "plus Z1" add on fare that the TOCs do when you change onto TfL services into or through Zone 1 then fares for many people will change (fall). Depending on how well Crossrail does (and it will take over a year to get the full service across London working) then my guess is that it will be local services in the suburbs that will see the first changes. This will be to ensure they feed into Crossrail properly at places like Abbey Wood or Chadwell Heath. Changes on trunk services and in the centre would follow on later when it is clearer what has happened to travel patterns. Obviously services in many areas already link to stations and Crossrail will just take over from existing services so changes might be limited in those places (e.g. Ealing Broadway or Romford). |
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Post by Late Again on Apr 5, 2013 18:04:15 GMT
I was on a 25 today took me 45 minutes to get from Bow DLR to the stop after Stratford Broadway !! About 36 minutes of that was from the DLR to the roundabout !! (it's because the A12 slip road is closed) so there was a significantly higher amount of traffic , Under East London operation drivers used to be told by the controller to use the flyover , I still see it happening now but in the opposite direction and dont know if they were told too or just in a rush , but realistically if the blackwall tunnel is closed or there is an accident along the A12 northern approach then it has a knock on effect on all routes in the Bow , Poplar area so I think adding new routes and keeping the 25 as it were wouldnt really change anything or by overbussing the corridor , the best thing to do would be to cut the 25 to Stratford City via Stratford to Oxford Circus and have a new route from Aldgate to Ilford but by takin some of the buses out of the 25 PVR for the new route . The traffic was also that bad a 205 had to use the flyover and turn right into rick roberts way in stratford adjacent to warton road use the roundabout and come back over the flyover to avoid it so extending the 205 definetly a no no not in the day anyway . I know what you mean I was stuck coming from Stratford to bow. It was because of the Blackwall tunnel being closed. But with the a12 slip closed it didn't help either as there was no where for the traffic to escape to. Still that should hopefully reopen on Monday morning. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 5, 2013 20:01:33 GMT
If I get interviews in London and the are in the afternoon then I'll use the buses to go up there because its cheaper and i can use slightly different routings to see more of London each time. I'm using the bus to and from an interview in Notting Hill on Monday, and I will use the bus to and from work from then on (if I get the job!) I don't see the value in only earning £30 for a day and then spending a sizeable chunk of it on a train up there - I would rather go for value for money and use my Travelcard, even if it does mean sitting on a bus for an hour. Its OK, but always keep a fiver for emergencies! If I need time to gain, I take the train In no fuss, I take the bus! Simples!  On another note, I have taken the 25 end to end once. 2 hours and 15 minutes, Overtaken 0 times, Overtook 0 times. A bit like a Monaco Grand prix. |
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Post by Trident on Apr 5, 2013 20:30:49 GMT
I'm using the bus to and from an interview in Notting Hill on Monday, and I will use the bus to and from work from then on (if I get the job!) I don't see the value in only earning £30 for a day and then spending a sizeable chunk of it on a train up there - I would rather go for value for money and use my Travelcard, even if it does mean sitting on a bus for an hour. Its OK, but always keep a fiver for emergencies! If I need time to gain, I take the train In no fuss, I take the bus! Simples! On another note, I have taken the 25 end to end once. 2 hours and 15 minutes, Overtaken 0 times, Overtook 0 times. A bit like a Monaco Grand prix. The Monaco GP will be long complete before you reached the terminus ;D. I've done it end to end in 1 hour and 35 minutes |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 5, 2013 23:54:26 GMT
What are these problems with Tramlink that people are mentioning, is it something to do with the cutting back of the 54 & 353?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2013 0:37:38 GMT
What are these problems with Tramlink that people are mentioning, is it something to do with the cutting back of the 54 & 353? Various routes were reconfigured for the introduction of Tramlink, though the 54 and 353 were two of the major victims. I'm not quite sure the full extent of what happened but there were a lot of changes. |
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Post by Steve80 on Apr 6, 2013 4:05:06 GMT
What are these problems with Tramlink that people are mentioning, is it something to do with the cutting back of the 54 & 353? Various routes were reconfigured for the introduction of Tramlink, though the 54 and 353 were two of the major victims. I'm not quite sure the full extent of what happened but there were a lot of changes. Some that I can think of... 130 reduced to run mon-sat evenings before being rerouted to norwood junction. X30 was discontinued TL1 (west croydon to wimbledon rail replacement service) discontinued. 354 renumbered to T33, going west croydon to addington village only. 354 used to run all the way to bromley School route 654 also cut back to addington village 466 diverted from shirley inn and extended to addington village |
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