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Post by vjaska on Apr 2, 2013 13:34:22 GMT
As DLA180 has rightly pointed out, the little discussion about Route 205 is clogging the 2-year extensions thread, so I thought I'd make a new thread to house this discussion. I personally disagree with the idea of extending the 205 to Stratford City, for two reasons - it would be too long (the route is already fairly long end-to-end) and because of the low bridge on the 339/D8 routing to Stratford City, it would have to go via Stratford Bus Station similar to the 25. This could be considered a positive and a negative. However, there is an opportunity to get direct links to Stratford at Mile End and Bow Church, both of which are directly served by the 205, so although a Stratford terminus might seem more logical, I question whether it's necessary or workable... What are your thoughts about wh541's proposal for an extension to Stratford City, or generally about the service on the 205, etc. Speaking as someone who has used the 205 under Metroline & Stagecoach (although admittingly, not a lot under Stagecoach), I've found there were a few reliability problems under Metroline & that these seem to be still there under Stagecoach so in my view, these would need to be ironed out before any extension is undertaken. On the other hand, I find Bow Church a bit of a weird place to terminate a major route and I'd say Stratford would be a lot better. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 2, 2013 14:06:40 GMT
Speaking as someone who has used the 205 under Metroline & Stagecoach (although admittingly, not a lot under Stagecoach), I've found there were a few reliability problems under Metroline & that these seem to be still there under Stagecoach so in my view, these would need to be ironed out before any extension is undertaken. On the other hand, I find Bow Church a bit of a weird place to terminate a major route and I'd say Stratford would be a lot better. I think Bow Church was chosen because buses can go and stand in the garage round the corner if need be. It is quite a hub, with a lot of routes converging there like the 8, 276, 488 etc. as well as the DLR. The route doesn't seem too bad to me reliability-wise with Stagecoach, I've seen the occasional Mile End turn but no more than you would expect from a long, high-frequency route. One other worry would be that the 205 would become dreadfully bogged down (even more so) if it went to Stratford, as it would essentially become a second 25. You'd probably need to provide much greater frequencies to cope with the influx of people using it as an alternative. I think passengers will take 25 over 205 anyway. If passengers needed Westfield then they would take the 25, 425 and walk the bridge, quicker than a bus going all the way around like 241. If passengers live in Queen Elizabeth Area then it would be quicker to take 339 (which also goes Mile End). Finally, as TfL intend to create N205, It clearly shows they thought about extending 205, but thought not. I dont think they will introduce N205 and then scrap it and have 205 extended. |
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Post by Trident on Apr 2, 2013 14:26:04 GMT
I think passengers will take 25 over 205 anyway. If passengers needed Westfield then they would take the 25, 425 and walk the bridge, quicker than a bus going all the way around like 241. If passengers live in Queen Elizabeth Area then it would be quicker to take 339 (which also goes Mile End). Finally, as TfL intend to create N205, It clearly shows they thought about extending 205, but thought not. I dont think they will introduce N205 and then scrap it and have 205 extended. No reason they would take the 25 over the 205 - both would go from Aldgate - Stratford Bus Station along the same very busy section. You could always get the 205 and walk over the bridge if you wanted to. The 339 is also chronically overcrowded so any alternative would be greatly valued. Id rather send the 205 via the new routing around Carpenters Road just to give the obvious sign that it would go into the Queen Elizabeth Park. I don't think we need another route from Stratford Bus Station around to Stratford City, when you consider that walking across the footbridge is much quicker at present than getting on the 241. I think it's better for the 205 to leave Stratford City and join the 25 right away from Stratford High Street, I believe this might improve reliability aswell seeing as the Stratford gyratory system can sometimes get congested, and boom a service is mucked. |
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Post by wh541 on Apr 2, 2013 14:44:10 GMT
Id rather send the 205 via the new routing around Carpenters Road just to give the obvious sign that it would go into the Queen Elizabeth Park. I don't think we need another route from Stratford Bus Station around to Stratford City, when you consider that walking across the footbridge is much quicker at present than getting on the 241. I think it's better for the 205 to leave Stratford City and join the 25 right away from Stratford High Street, I believe this might improve reliability aswell seeing as the Stratford gyratory system can sometimes get congested, and boom a service is mucked. Is the bridge from the turn onto Stratford High Street from Stratford City (that the 339/D8 uses) not too low to accommodate deckers? Unless there's another way to route the 205 via Great Eastern Road seems like the only option. The 205 can go the same way the new N205 will go. |
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Post by Trident on Apr 2, 2013 14:56:35 GMT
Id rather send the 205 via the new routing around Carpenters Road just to give the obvious sign that it would go into the Queen Elizabeth Park. I don't think we need another route from Stratford Bus Station around to Stratford City, when you consider that walking across the footbridge is much quicker at present than getting on the 241. I think it's better for the 205 to leave Stratford City and join the 25 right away from Stratford High Street, I believe this might improve reliability aswell seeing as the Stratford gyratory system can sometimes get congested, and boom a service is mucked. Is the bridge from the turn onto Stratford High Street from Stratford City (that the 339/D8 uses) not too low to accommodate deckers? Unless there's another way to route the 205 via Great Eastern Road seems like the only option. I don't believe the N205 will use Warton Road, I believe there's another access to Stratford City that's soon to be opened which I believe the 339 & D8 are due to serve anyway. |
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Post by marlon101 on Apr 2, 2013 15:02:25 GMT
It was better when Metroline ran the route, despite PV being some distance away from the east end terminus. One thing I've noted with the stagecoach service is the gaps in service and stupid turns, to like Marylebone which is a favourite when Paddington is merely 10 mintues away. Never noted none of that with Metroline. The extension to Bow Church which was Stagecoach's choice and is only 10 mins away from Mile end. Personally at the East London end of the route, I've never noticed many turns. Neither have I noticed gaps in the service, speaking as a regular user I usually find I'm never waiting too long for a bus. Also worth noting a lot of the 205's time under Metroline it only ran to Whitechapel, which is a substantial amount shorter than the current Bow Church routing. Admittedly the Bow Church extension is only 10 minutes though I can vouch for the traffic around Bow sometimes being fairly awful. The extension's also much more useful than Mile End as it means the 25 is better supplemented. I concur that the 205 seemed pretty reliable to me as a regular user 2009-12. Traffic around Bow can be awkward and with the Crossrail works, Whitechapel always seems to be murder to me as well. Regarding 25/205 - I think most people are pragmatic and would hop on the first that arrived at a stop heading towards Stratford. As has been said though, an extension to Stratford would be a pretty hefty undertaking. Who, furthermore, would fund this increase. If Stagecoach are running at a loss then in theory we're looking at a tender bid that's going to be a bit higher anyway, without TfL needing to fork out even more. |
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Post by DT 11 on Apr 2, 2013 15:31:48 GMT
IMO the current 205 PVR is poor and should be 30 for such a busy service. Metroline and Stagecoach run the service the same there is no difference at all. The Current PVR is inadequate for such a lengthy route. Hopefully Stagecoach retain it and replace the Scanias with E400H's
The 205 to Bow Church Extension was a success in my opinion.
I think the 205 should be extended to Stratford City to assist the 25, but only if is NOT made to go via Stratford Bus Station which would effectively add 15 minutes onto the route would possibly need a PVR of 38 which is a waste. The 205 could run via Carpenters Road to Stratford City. At the current frequency the PVR should be 34 if extended to Stratford City.
If Stratford City has the 205 the people whom want to get to as far as Aldgate from Stratford Westfield's have the 205 and I can guarantee it will be well used.
I also think the 108 should be diverted to Stratford City.
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Post by Trident on Apr 2, 2013 15:39:19 GMT
IMO the current 205 PVR is poor and should be 30 for such a busy service. Metroline and Stagecoach run the service the same there is no difference at all. The Current PVR is inadequate. The 205 to Bow Church Extension was a success in my opinion. I think the 205 should be extended to Stratford City to assist the 25, but only if is NOT made to go via Stratford Bus Station which would effectively add 15 minutes onto the route would possibly need a PVR of 38 which is a waste. The 205 could run via Carpenters Road to Stratford City. At the current frequency the PVR should be 34 if extended to Stratford City. If Stratford City has the 205 the people whom want to get to as far as Aldgate from Stratford Westfield's have the 205 and I can guarantee it will be well used. I also think the 108 should be diverted to Stratford City. I think a PVR of 38, if made to go via the Stratford gyratory would be a bit too much - Perhaps 30-31 would be a more realistic figure for that route as you are only going the extra mile and a bit. |
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Post by DT 11 on Apr 2, 2013 15:50:56 GMT
Personally at the East London end of the route, I've never noticed many turns. Neither have I noticed gaps in the service, speaking as a regular user I usually find I'm never waiting too long for a bus. Also worth noting a lot of the 205's time under Metroline it only ran to Whitechapel, which is a substantial amount shorter than the current Bow Church routing. Admittedly the Bow Church extension is only 10 minutes though I can vouch for the traffic around Bow sometimes being fairly awful. The extension's also much more useful than Mile End as it means the 25 is better supplemented. Also maybe the route should be extended to Stratford City as a more logical terminal than Bow Church. Quoted from the other thread. Highlighted in Yellow. We need to remember ELBG done this, not Stagecoach.... As its been said Stagecoach do not like running at a loss. |
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Post by DT 11 on Apr 2, 2013 16:11:27 GMT
IMO the current 205 PVR is poor and should be 30 for such a busy service. Metroline and Stagecoach run the service the same there is no difference at all. The Current PVR is inadequate for such a lengthy route. Hopefully Stagecoach retain it and replace the Scanias with E400H's The 205 to Bow Church Extension was a success in my opinion. I think the 205 should be extended to Stratford City to assist the 25, but only if is NOT made to go via Stratford Bus Station which would effectively add 15 minutes onto the route would possibly need a PVR of 38 which is a waste. The 205 could run via Carpenters Road to Stratford City. At the current frequency the PVR should be 34 if extended to Stratford City. If Stratford City has the 205 the people whom want to get to as far as Aldgate from Stratford Westfield's have the 205 and I can guarantee it will be well used. I also think the 108 should be diverted to Stratford City. After rough calculation, Stratford City - Bow Church takes 10 mins. Therefore to maintain current frequency another 3-4 PVR would be needed. Not that bad at all. I think the extension should happen because it would really help out the 25. The more support the 25 has the better IMO. |
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Post by DT 11 on Apr 2, 2013 16:20:04 GMT
Also If extending the 205 to Stratford City is going to be a problem then IMO a new route should be created
Route 218: Stratford City - Tottenham Court Road
via Bow, Mile End - Stepney Green - Whitechapel - Aldgate - Bank - St. Paul's - City Thameslink - Holborn and reduce PVR of the 25.
I choose Tottenham Court Road because the 25 can cope at Oxford Circus for a few stops the First Stop is now Great Titchfield Street. The 25 is busy end to end so the 218 would be exactly the same.
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Post by Trident on Apr 2, 2013 16:27:01 GMT
In honesty, I think it's about time that the 25 was cut perhaps to improve its reliability. Maybe to Forest Gate and extend the 425 up to Ilford with a frequency boost.
Let's give the 425 a frequency of every 5-6 minutes which coupled with the 86 should hopefully help out loadings along Romford Road.
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Post by DT 11 on Apr 2, 2013 16:35:17 GMT
In honesty, I think it's about time that the 25 was cut perhaps to improve its reliability. Maybe to Forest Gate and extend the 425 up to Ilford with a frequency boost. Let's give the 425 a frequency of every 5-6 minutes which coupled with the 86 should hopefully help out loadings along Romford Road. In all honesty I think the 425 should be extended to Ilford and the current 425 section between Mile End and Clapton replaced by the D7. |
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Post by Trident on Apr 2, 2013 16:57:15 GMT
In honesty, I think it's about time that the 25 was cut perhaps to improve its reliability. Maybe to Forest Gate and extend the 425 up to Ilford with a frequency boost. Let's give the 425 a frequency of every 5-6 minutes which coupled with the 86 should hopefully help out loadings along Romford Road. Two problems - would stand space in Forest Gate cope with so many 25s terminating there? Also the problem of Ilford, Manor Park, Woodgrange Park losing a long-established direct link to the West End, the City, etc. That would probably be deeply unpopular. I believe it wouldnt but for the reliability sake of the route I think it's better for it to be cut short. Seeing as there will be an increased load of buses between Forest Gate and Stratford with my idea I already thought of turning some short at Stratford anyway. I wouldn't say the 25 is the direct link towards Central London from Romford Road. It runs parallel to the Greater Anglia services between Ilford and Stratford that also stop at areas served by the 25 & 86 via a short walk. I also suggested the cut because Manor Park can get quite congested during the day which varies the times for the buses to get through. As much as its an inconvinience to people along the Romford Road corridor, it's better in a way to prevent mileage loss. |
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Post by wh541 on Apr 2, 2013 16:59:14 GMT
Don't take this as gospel but I been told that Stagecoach agreed to run the Mile End - Bow Church at there own cost as part of the tender. I wonder if this will impact on other operators bidding for the route.Also maybe the route should be extended to Stratford City as a more logical terminal than Bow Church. Quoted from the other thread. Highlighted in Yellow. We need to remember ELBG done this, not Stagecoach.... As its been said Stagecoach do not like running at a loss. True but I am sure Stagecoach will try and fight to keep the route. I wonder if the cost works out cheaper than running buses light / driver change overs at another location. |
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