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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 11:15:58 GMT
o. Gotta love these in depth though provoking analysis's. What exactly is the connection with social workers? If somebody gets on on, touches their Oystercard in but finds there is insufficient credit and the driver cannot accept cash what happens next? Should they do a 50/50, phone a friend or ask the audience perhaps? Gotta love the assumption that public transport is different to anything else where you pay - many places have different rules on how you can pay - small shops/pubs - often no cards (or a fee added), some supermarkets (e.g Aldi) no credit cards. You can debate if cashless is good or bad, but if it is clear what methods are accepted for certain goods/services then that is the situation - make sure you are sorted if you want to use it. Do you think you should make be able to make free calls on your mobile if you have "forgotten" to top up? In your situation, the person tops up and then travels or can't travel - simple. As said a couple of posts back it is an unfair onus on drivers to have judge/deal with "vulnerable" persons - if someone is truly vulnerable then they need more than a free bus ride
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 11:27:23 GMT
Well there are far more cash paying passengers than wheelchair users, imagine the uproar if the latter were banned? TfL are supposed to be catering for minority groups so how about a bit of consistancy?
I do agree that drivers are in an impossible position regarding vulnerable passengers but calling the police everytime is totally impractical
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 12:04:27 GMT
As wanting to pay cash when it is not accepted for a certain transaction is not discrimination.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 13:10:44 GMT
Gotta love the assumption that public transport is different to anything else where you pay - many places have different rules on how you can pay - small shops/pubs - often no cards (or a fee added), some supermarkets (e.g Aldi) no credit cards. You can debate if cashless is good or bad, but if it is clear what methods are accepted for certain goods/services then that is the situation - make sure you are sorted if you want to use it. Do you think you should make be able to make free calls on your mobile if you have "forgotten" to top up? In your situation, the person tops up and then travels or can't travel - simple. As said a couple of posts back it is an unfair onus on drivers to have judge/deal with "vulnerable" persons - if someone is truly vulnerable then they need more than a free bus ride Comparison with a newsagent is a moot point, a newsagent is not essential - you don't need a newsagent to get home at night. Exactly, if a newsagent refused to accept cash the chances are that there would be other newsagents nearby that gladly took cash and the one that didn't would soon be out of business. Same with Aldi apparently not accepting credit cards, if you don't like it there are plenty of other supermarkets that do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 16:07:37 GMT
If you need to "get home at night" then make sure you have the correct means to do so. This is the same issue as the people who flash £20 pound notes and expect free travel if change isn't available.
Despite what some seem to think bus services are not a charity or taxi service because an individual has forgotten or cannot be bothered to follow the specific company/city rules on how to make payment for the service.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 2, 2013 16:24:17 GMT
Reading London Travelwatch's reply, I agree that the Tramlink TVM's need to be upgraded and an increase of Oyster Ticket Stop agents in Surrey, although I don't know of any TfL routes in Merstham. Redhill does have Oyster Ticket Stops, including at the Bus Station for the 405 bus route. The 405 goes through Merstham on its way to Redhill.
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Post by rambo on Oct 2, 2013 22:29:20 GMT
I'm of the opinion that if somebody gets on the bus and they are not in a position to pay, and the driver considers them vulnerable, then the police should be called in all instances. That way the onus is removed from he bus driver, anybody who is vulnerable gets the assistance they need, and anybody taking the proverbial urine gets dealt with win-win. Agree with that. I had a young lad get on my bus and told me he had been robbed, I offered to call the police, but he was not interested, just wanted a free ride.
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Post by Steve80 on Oct 3, 2013 3:04:12 GMT
If you need to "get home at night" then make sure you have the correct means to do so. This is the same issue as the people who flash £20 pound notes and expect free travel if change isn't available. Despite what some seem to think bus services are not a charity or taxi service because an individual has forgotten or cannot be bothered to follow the specific company/city rules on how to make payment for the service. I had four paying passengers today on the 322. One came on in Brixton and was looking for her oyster card. She couldn't find it so she paid the £2.40 fare. She seemed very unhappy about it. The other passenger came on also in Brixton and tried to scan their oyster card but it had no money. Again, she paid for the fare and there was no problems. Also had another passenger in robson road, norwood who came on and asked how much is the fare. She burst out laughing when I told her it was £2.40 Can you imagine if this cashless system came into place. These paying passengers would not be able to travel on the bus just for the fact they have no oyster or contactless cards. There will always be passengers that will forget to top up or even leave their cards at the office or at home. If your unfortunate enough to even lose your oyster card then you are in deep trouble! If I was in their position and I really needed to travel on the bus then I probably try to bribe the bus driver
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Post by slr on Oct 3, 2013 6:16:44 GMT
I've paid in over £50 the last two duties I've done on the 286 (evenings at the Weekend), which is maybe where most of the infrequent travelers lie. Personally I think that the times where I take the most cash would be last few buses, when the shops are closed. Then again implement anything (which they probably will) and the public will eventually get used to it by means of adapting and overcoming! There will be rows at first, but soon all will be forgotten.
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Post by rambo on Oct 3, 2013 6:36:55 GMT
I take loads of cash on my route(498), but if cashless is introduced, people will have to get used to it. It's strange how everyone has thier phone ready but have to look for thier oyster..................
I think the main point is that for the amount of cash taken on londons buses(1%, I believe), and the cost of collecting it, surely it makes sense to stop cash on buses.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 8:34:38 GMT
Give it a few years and phones will probably be able to make a payment!
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Post by Swadbus on Oct 3, 2013 9:01:36 GMT
I'm of the opinion that if somebody gets on the bus and they are not in a position to pay, and the driver considers them vulnerable, then the police should be called in all instances. That way the onus is removed from he bus driver, anybody who is vulnerable gets the assistance they need, and anybody taking the proverbial urine gets dealt with win-win. Oh yeah.................I mean its not like the police have got anything better to do!! Seeing as TFL pay for their own police officers through the safer transport command, this is entirely practical.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 3, 2013 9:02:54 GMT
I had four paying passengers today on the 322. One came on in Brixton and was looking for her oyster card. She couldn't find it so she paid the £2.40 fare. She seemed very unhappy about it. The other passenger came on also in Brixton and tried to scan their oyster card but it had no money. Again, she paid for the fare and there was no problems. Also had another passenger in robson road, norwood who came on and asked how much is the fare. She burst out laughing when I told her it was £2.40 Can you imagine if this cashless system came into place. These paying passengers would not be able to travel on the bus just for the fact they have no oyster or contactless cards. There will always be passengers that will forget to top up or even leave their cards at the office or at home. If your unfortunate enough to even lose your oyster card then you are in deep trouble! If I was in their position and I really needed to travel on the bus then I probably try to bribe the bus driver Can I ask one question about your interaction with these passengers? Did you advise them that a contactless bank card would work in place of cash and only cost £1.40? In my experience of watching what happens when people have an issue with their Oyster card I have never seen a driver explain that a contactless cash card is acceptable on the bus. While it might cause a delay in explaining the first time I still think the vast majority of passengers have no idea that a contactless bank card works on a bus. Clearly it won't be a solution for everyone but it might help reduce problems in the future. TfL also need to vastly increase the advertising of this alternative payment facility. If they gave drivers a stock of leaflets to hand out when people have problems with payment then it would help increase knowledge of the alternatives.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 3, 2013 9:17:58 GMT
Give it a few years and phones will probably be able to make a payment! Well Arriva already have the M-Ticket facility whereby you can load an Arriva only ticket to your phone. Go North East also have something similar. In Japan there is widespread use of contactless equipped (NFC) phones which can be linked with Suica and Pasmo contactless cards as well as credit cards. It's certainly not unusual to see people using their phones to pay for all sorts of things. Of course the Japanese are often way ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to adopting new technology.
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Post by paulsw2 on Oct 3, 2013 10:50:52 GMT
The problem is that TfL want to cut their costs by any means so the general public WILL suffer
take this scenario for instance Passenger (A) needs to get to hospital urgently as family member admitted just after midnight they do not use public transport that often they do not have a Contactless Bank Card what happens then? Driver lets them travel (decent driver) 3 stops down the road passenger (B) gets on with oyster card with insufficient funds and offerds to pay cash. The driver says no other passengers get involved saying you let passenger A on why not passenger B with the way that society is going the driver could be accused of discrimination wether it be racist sexist homophobic etc This then puts undue pressure on operating staff who could then make a wrong decision regarding someone in a vulnerable situation.
Cash fares should be accepted using an electronic version of the old "johnson box" design and no change given.
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