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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 11:25:53 GMT
Oh yeah.................I mean its not like the police have got anything better to do!! Seeing as TFL pay for their own police officers through the safer transport command, this is entirely practical. Yes but I'm sure they already have more than enough to deal with. Anyway how is a police officer able to decide who is and isn't vulnerable anymore than a bus driver is? There is no definitive answer.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 3, 2013 13:25:21 GMT
The only way cashless could ever work is if the hours of topping up Oyster Cards were extended. One night, I had to walk from St. Leonard's Church to Streatham Hill just to find a shop which is open and does Oyster top up. I found two opposite each other except one refused to serve me because they don't top up Oysters after 11 yet the one across the road said it was up till 12 that they can serve Oyster top up. This is quite ridiculous IMO. Not everyone has a contactless bank card either (I certainly don't but I don't carry mine anyway) so someone like me who is generally 90% reliable in making sure their oyster is topped up sufficiently but like any human, does have the odd moment and forgets could be stranded - fine if I'm in Streatham but what about if I was Coulsdon!
Maybe TfL could develop a portable Oyster reader that passengers could buy which could be battery operated and like the ones in the shops, tells you how much you have on your Oyster card - I personally think that this idea is not silly. Retail it for about £2-3 and they could make a killing!
Surely, TfL should trial 'no change given' similar to what Dublin Buses have before attempting even to consider 'cashless'. Driver has no interaction with the passenger unless they ask a question or print a ticket off - you have the ticket machines next to the luggage space for one day pass and that sort & you have the 'exact fare' box on the drivers cab door - more importantly, the system works well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 13:36:34 GMT
The only way cashless could ever work is if the hours of topping up Oyster Cards were extended. One night, I had to walk from St. Leonard's Church to Streatham Hill just to find a shop which is open and does Oyster top up. I found two opposite each other except one refused to serve me because they don't top up Oysters after 11 yet the one across the road said it was up till 12 that they can serve Oyster top up. This is quite ridiculous IMO. Not everyone has a contactless bank card either (I certainly don't but I don't carry mine anyway) so someone like me who is generally 90% reliable in making sure their oyster is topped up sufficiently but like any human, does have the odd moment and forgets could be stranded - fine if I'm in Streatham but what about if I was Coulsdon! Maybe TfL could develop a portable Oyster reader that passengers could buy which could be battery operated and like the ones in the shops, tells you how much you have on your Oyster card - I personally think that this idea is not silly. Retail it for about £2-3 and they could make a killing! Surely, TfL should trial 'no change given' similar to what Dublin Buses have before attempting even to consider 'cashless'. Driver has no interaction with the passenger unless they ask a question or print a ticket off - you have the ticket machines next to the luggage space for one day pass and that sort & you have the 'exact fare' box on the drivers cab door - more importantly, the system works well. That does work well in Dublin and elsewhere but it would cost too much now too fit all TfL buses with fareboxes considering that so few people pay cash now. TfL should leave things as they are.
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Post by Swadbus on Oct 3, 2013 14:09:18 GMT
Seeing as TFL pay for their own police officers through the safer transport command, this is entirely practical. Yes but I'm sure they already have more than enough to deal with. Anyway how is a police officer able to decide who is and isn't vulnerable anymore than a bus driver is? There is no definitive answer. Give me an example of how a police officer couldn't assist more practically in almost every situation compared to a bus driver? Police are there to help vulnerable people. That is the biggest single aspect of their job - to help the vulnerable. Any vulnerable person, young / old, able bodied or disabled can be helped by a police officer, not a bus driver. Somebody who is lost / missing. Somebody who has been robbed / lost their money. Every time this is a matter for the police not a bus driver.
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Post by joefrombow on Oct 3, 2013 14:45:22 GMT
Implement it in 2016 maybe when more people have contactless cards and maybe when there is a way to pay over NFC on smart phones I just personally think London as advanced as we are , Are not ready yet for 100% smartcard on the bus the possibilities are endless for people not having oyster cards or contactless cards .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 14:48:22 GMT
Yes but I'm sure they already have more than enough to deal with. Anyway how is a police officer able to decide who is and isn't vulnerable anymore than a bus driver is? There is no definitive answer. Give me an example of how a police officer couldn't assist more practically in almost every situation compared to a bus driver? Police are there to help vulnerable people. That is the biggest single aspect of their job - to help the vulnerable. Any vulnerable person, young / old, able bodied or disabled can be helped by a police officer, not a bus driver. Somebody who is lost / missing. Somebody who has been robbed / lost their money. Every time this is a matter for the police not a bus driver. Somebody who is missing or has been the victim of a robbery is obviously a matter for the police but somebody who is lost can surely obtain directions from a bus driver and if somebody has lost their money, well there isn't much the police can do about that unless some honest person hands it in. Getting back to the cashless issue, if somebodys Oyster has insufficient credit and they want to pay cash but the driver cannot accept it, what happens? If this cashless idea goes ahead it will be a disaster waiting to happen, sadly it will only be only a matter of time before somebody is turfed off a bus at 2am because the driver cannot accept cash and something dreadful happens to them whilst they are walking home, I can imagine the outcry there will be.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 3, 2013 15:35:11 GMT
Give me an example of how a police officer couldn't assist more practically in almost every situation compared to a bus driver? Police are there to help vulnerable people. That is the biggest single aspect of their job - to help the vulnerable. Any vulnerable person, young / old, able bodied or disabled can be helped by a police officer, not a bus driver. Somebody who is lost / missing. Somebody who has been robbed / lost their money. Every time this is a matter for the police not a bus driver. Somebody who is missing or has been the victim of a robbery is obviously a matter for the police but somebody who is lost can surely obtain directions from a bus driver and if somebody has lost their money, well there isn't much the police can do about that unless some honest person hands it in. Getting back to the cashless issue, if somebodys Oyster has insufficient credit and they want to pay cash but the driver cannot accept it, what happens? If this cashless idea goes ahead it will be a disaster waiting to happen, sadly it will only be only a matter of time before somebody is turfed off a bus at 2am because the driver cannot accept cash and something dreadful happens to them whilst they are walking home, I can imagine the outcry there will be. Problem is, I've noticed that a lot of the bus drivers around Brixton don't seem to be able to give directions because they seem not to many places, even along the route they are driving.
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Post by lonmark on Oct 3, 2013 16:11:32 GMT
Today and Yesterday, i catch on bus route 208, i see about 3-4 people pay the cash every day!!! Don't know how are they going to pay? I hope they get the oystercard in the end when cashless go live.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Oct 3, 2013 17:17:46 GMT
The option to pay cashless debit card should be displayed on every vehicle in London on the protective screen. They certainly are on the local Arriva/Go Ahead/Stagecoach routes in my area.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 17:29:17 GMT
Somebody who is missing or has been the victim of a robbery is obviously a matter for the police but somebody who is lost can surely obtain directions from a bus driver and if somebody has lost their money, well there isn't much the police can do about that unless some honest person hands it in. Getting back to the cashless issue, if somebodys Oyster has insufficient credit and they want to pay cash but the driver cannot accept it, what happens? If this cashless idea goes ahead it will be a disaster waiting to happen, sadly it will only be only a matter of time before somebody is turfed off a bus at 2am because the driver cannot accept cash and something dreadful happens to them whilst they are walking home, I can imagine the outcry there will be. But why is someone loosing their money an onus on the bus driver? Lets put aside the vulnerable persons thing for a moment, as I said before if you got to the front of a queue in a shop and said "oh crap I have lost my wallet" - you try saying "I'll just take this shopping for free this time mate" - it won't happen, expect to see the cells if you just walk off with it. You could say when anyone is refused travel or kicked off a bus "what happens" at any time of day - if someone is knocked down by a car 10 minutes later do you think that is the drivers fault? These sorts of attitudes annoy drivers, often the same types people who are saying that people should be given a free ride if they can't pay for the service in the accepted way are usually the same people complaining in a tabloid newspaper way about "rough youths travelling for free/causing trouble" or "drivers letting people on for free when I have paid x amount for my travel pass" or wondering why fares are going up or services not expanded ad infinitum
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2013 18:06:23 GMT
What they need to do is get people to sign a direct debit or card authority ... so that if an Oyster card has a negative balance for more than say 14 days ... it can be taken straight out of the bank account/card ... if you do not sign an authority, your Oyster can not go negative ... then the user has a choice. If they think they will ever find themselves vulnerable they sign ... if they do not ... then they should never be vulnerable.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 3, 2013 22:34:37 GMT
What they need to do is get people to sign a direct debit or card authority .. so that if an Oyster card has a negative balance for more than say 14 days .. it can be taken straight out of the bank account / card .. if you do not sign an authority, your Oyster can not go negative .. then the user has a choice. If they think they will ever find themselves vulnerable they sign .. if they do not .. then they should never be vulnerable. That facility already exists via Oyster Auto topup. There are two problems with the system as it is currently configured. Firstly it requires a rail trip to activate Auto topup for the first time. There will be a reasonable proportion of people who rarely use rail or where access to a railway or tube station is not convenient. Why on earth you cannot, as a minimum, use a ticket machine to activate auto top up I do not know. Ideally you should be able to activate it at a nominated Oyster Ticket Stop but I think the devices in agents are "dumb" and not on line (just dial up). The second bit of inflexibility is only allowing two top up amounts. There should be more flexibility to allow people more choice of auto top up value to recognise that some people have limited financial circumstances. TfL are not minded to spend money to offer these facilities because it is focused on switching people to bank card use and scaling down Oyster.
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Post by Steve80 on Oct 4, 2013 3:35:03 GMT
I had four paying passengers today on the 322. One came on in Brixton and was looking for her oyster card. She couldn't find it so she paid the £2.40 fare. She seemed very unhappy about it. The other passenger came on also in Brixton and tried to scan their oyster card but it had no money. Again, she paid for the fare and there was no problems. Also had another passenger in robson road, norwood who came on and asked how much is the fare. She burst out laughing when I told her it was £2.40 Can you imagine if this cashless system came into place. These paying passengers would not be able to travel on the bus just for the fact they have no oyster or contactless cards. There will always be passengers that will forget to top up or even leave their cards at the office or at home. If your unfortunate enough to even lose your oyster card then you are in deep trouble! If I was in their position and I really needed to travel on the bus then I probably try to bribe the bus driver Can I ask one question about your interaction with these passengers? Did you advise them that a contactless bank card would work in place of cash and only cost £1.40? In my experience of watching what happens when people have an issue with their Oyster card I have never seen a driver explain that a contactless cash card is acceptable on the bus. While it might cause a delay in explaining the first time I still think the vast majority of passengers have no idea that a contactless bank card works on a bus. Clearly it won't be a solution for everyone but it might help reduce problems in the future. TfL also need to vastly increase the advertising of this alternative payment facility. If they gave drivers a stock of leaflets to hand out when people have problems with payment then it would help increase knowledge of the alternatives. No. It never occurred to me to do so. I will definitely do so now and try to score some extra brownie points with my customers Before they introduced the contactless card on the buses, they had a small team of officials going around to all the garages stating to us drivers on how it works. Unfortunately, it was not a compulsory meeting - if you wanted to know about it then you would go up to them otherwise you carry on doing what you was doing. So it wouldn't surprised me if there are drivers who have no idea on what these cards can do. I don't think many even know about TFL proposal on making buses cash free. It was only last month when a passenger came on and scanned her contactless card instead of her oyster card. She asked for a refund so she could scan her oyster instead so I pressed the usual buttons on the wayfarer and got her to scan her card again. Surprisingly to me, a ticket came out. I can't remember what that ticket actually meant but I got the impression that she had to ring up to get her money back. Believe it or not, but I have never been told on how to refund fares on oyster/contactless cards by my employers (I actually learnt such information on this forum!), and if I did I would have advised the passenger the implications of refunding a fare on her card. If TFL do decide to go with making buses cashless then I hope they get the bus companies to scheduled meetings with all of us drivers on what this would mean and any problems that we may face and what to do. Unfortunately, what I expect will happen is that we will get a leaflet, probably a week before, simply saying that we no longer accept cash fares, and that's it
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2013 10:49:49 GMT
Somebody who is missing or has been the victim of a robbery is obviously a matter for the police but somebody who is lost can surely obtain directions from a bus driver and if somebody has lost their money, well there isn't much the police can do about that unless some honest person hands it in. Getting back to the cashless issue, if somebodys Oyster has insufficient credit and they want to pay cash but the driver cannot accept it, what happens? If this cashless idea goes ahead it will be a disaster waiting to happen, sadly it will only be only a matter of time before somebody is turfed off a bus at 2am because the driver cannot accept cash and something dreadful happens to them whilst they are walking home, I can imagine the outcry there will be. But why is someone loosing their money an onus on the bus driver? Lets put aside the vulnerable persons thing for a moment, as I said before if you got to the front of a queue in a shop and said "oh crap I have lost my wallet" - you try saying "I'll just take this shopping for free this time mate" - it won't happen, expect to see the cells if you just walk off with it. You could say when anyone is refused travel or kicked off a bus "what happens" at any time of day - if someone is knocked down by a car 10 minutes later do you think that is the drivers fault? These sorts of attitudes annoy drivers, often the same types people who are saying that people should be given a free ride if they can't pay for the service in the accepted way are usually the same people complaining in a tabloid newspaper way about "rough youths travelling for free/causing trouble" or "drivers letting people on for free when I have paid x amount for my travel pass" or wondering why fares are going up or services not expanded ad infinitum I don't see the connection to food shopping, as far as I'm aware all supermarkets still accept cash, and BTW shoplifters rarely "see the cells" nowadays, they are usually issued with a fixed penalty notice. Obviously if somebody is refused travel and subsequently knocked down by a car ten minutes later it isn't the bus drivers fault, however the two things are inevitably linked. There are so many scenario's where this cashless idea will cause problems, supposing somebody goes out for a walk in the country and the weather turns nasty so they decide to wait for the R8 bus back to civilisation only to find the driver cannot accept their cash. Well there are no Oyster/top up facilities out in the sticks so the driver has little choice but to give them a free ride
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Post by slr on Oct 4, 2013 11:42:58 GMT
The option to pay cashless debit card should be displayed on every vehicle in London on the protective screen. They certainly are on the local Arriva/Go Ahead/Stagecoach routes in my area. It is displayed on every bus, on a notice by the Oyster Reader.
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