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Post by ServerKing on Sept 23, 2013 19:47:11 GMT
Im sure there was a plan to do this at one stage, and a couple were changed, H23 became 423 for example. This seems to have been quietly dropped however. I think that this is a good thing, as it seems unnecessary and the Prefixed routes tend to differentiate by being local services as opposed to trunk routes True generally, though maybe the C2 should be renumbered when the opportunity arises - that has rather become a trunk service... I always wondered why there's no W1 or W2, but we have W3 onwards (though no W17 or 18)  I think they could renumber some to organise it a little better... In some instances some prefixed routes have gone, such as the PR1 and 2 (226?) |
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 23, 2013 20:18:49 GMT
True generally, though maybe the C2 should be renumbered when the opportunity arises - that has rather become a trunk service... I always wondered why there's no W1 or W2, but we have W3 onwards (though no W17 or 18) I think they could renumber some to organise it a little better... In some instances some prefixed routes have gone, such as the PR1 and 2 (226?) There was a W1 and a W2 in the past, in the Wood Green area. Both long gone, the W1 in particular was very short lived. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 23, 2013 21:28:06 GMT
True generally, though maybe the C2 should be renumbered when the opportunity arises - that has rather become a trunk service... I always wondered why there's no W1 or W2, but we have W3 onwards (though no W17 or 18) I think they could renumber some to organise it a little better... In some instances some prefixed routes have gone, such as the PR1 and 2 (226?) It would be nice but I wouldn't renumber any for that reason - most will be well known to the passengers that use the routes and it costs in terms of changing bus stop tiles, timetables, posters, etc. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 23, 2013 22:20:14 GMT
True generally, though maybe the C2 should be renumbered when the opportunity arises - that has rather become a trunk service... I always wondered why there's no W1 or W2, but we have W3 onwards (though no W17 or 18) I think they could renumber some to organise it a little better... In some instances some prefixed routes have gone, such as the PR1 and 2 (226?) There was a W17 but it was a fairly short lived route. From memory it ran from Coppermill Lane to a side road just off Church Hill in Walthamstow. Thamesway ran it with Mercedes Minibuses. To the best of my knowledge there has not been a W18 in modern times. Going back a long way there was a W21 circular run with DMSs when the Victoria Line opened to Walthamstow. I believe bits of the 212 and 215 now cover what was the W21. You need to have a read about the Bus Reshaping Plan in the 1960s that created some of the long standing prefix routes. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 0:14:56 GMT
Another really interesting example is the 90 family of routes (90/A/B/C), though none lost their suffix for the same reason as the more recent expunging.
From Londonbuses.co.uk,
90 - Kew Gardens - Staines (391-490-290)
90A - Kew Gardens - Heathrow (391-490)
90B - Kew Gardens - Yeading (391-490-90)
90C - Hammersmith - Staines (190-490-290
The 290 replaced the 90C Hammersmith - Richmond, subsequently replacing much of the 90 Richmond - Staines. The 190 later on mostly took over the Richmond - Hammersmith portion, and the 290 has ended up as Twickenham - Staines.
The 190 Still includes the Richmond Hammersmith portion.
The 90B later was renumbered as 90, and in 2007 was split at Feltham to create new route 490 Richmond - Hatton Cross, leaving the (new) 90 as Feltham - Northolt. The 490 later on extended to Heathrow, sharing an identical routing between Hatton + and Richmond as long abandoned 90A. There was a later 90A, but that ran only on Sundays between Yeading and Hammersmith.
(I've left some small extensions and reroutings out of this btw!)
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Post by Steve80 on Sept 24, 2013 0:41:08 GMT
The 87 wouldn't have been withdrawn in East London just so that the number could be re-used in SW London. The change caused confusion with passengers unsure of where the 87 went and not understanding why it was renumbered if it just did the same as the 77A. The change of the 45A to 345 was also pointless and a waste of money, just change for changes sake. With suffix lettered route numbers quite a number of punters would mistake one route for another, whether they be partially sighted or through sheer ignorance of the displayed letter. I have witnessed this many times when I used to drive the 77A...and the 77 for that matter (each where punters thought it was the 'other' route). The N77 especially needed to be renumbered as it was often mistaken for the night version of the day 77, which to be honest I can see their point on. Remembering it to the 87/N87 was the best thing TfL did for alleviating that confusion, even if it did not do so straight away. Yes, I recall one time when doing the 77 and when I got to Clapham junction (heading towards tooting) I had one passenger coming up to me demanding I give her money back as she thought she was on a 77A  I also remember a few times doing the last 77 and had many asking if I go to southfields. Bearing in mind I was in my early 20s when I worked at merton, I always thought it was an odd question as I never realised that durnsford road, the road that the N87 (N77 at the time) runs along, was part of southifelds. I always thought it was only the 39 that went there. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 24, 2013 1:24:43 GMT
Back in the 90's, we only had a few suffix routes left around Brixton & the surrounding area - the 45A became the 345 with an extension to Peckham in 1995, the 2A & 2B became the 2 when the original 2 was renumbered 322, extended to Crystal Palace from Rosendale Road & re-routed away from Victoria at Vauxhall to Elephant & the 137A which did the current N137 routing until the late 90's when it was chopped back from Oxford Circus to Clapham Common - not long after becoming the 417.
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 24, 2013 4:51:27 GMT
Back in the 90's, we only had a few suffix routes left around Brixton & the surrounding area - the 45A became the 345 with an extension to Peckham in 1995, the 2A & 2B became the 2 when the original 2 was renumbered 322, extended to Crystal Palace from Rosendale Road & re-routed away from Victoria at Vauxhall to Elephant & the 137A which did the current N137 routing until the late 90's when it was chopped back from Oxford Circus to Clapham Common - not long after becoming the 417. I know the 68A became the 468  |
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Post by sw11simon on Sept 24, 2013 5:56:45 GMT
Back in the 90's, we only had a few suffix routes left around Brixton & the surrounding area - the 45A became the 345 with an extension to Peckham in 1995, the 2A & 2B became the 2 when the original 2 was renumbered 322, extended to Crystal Palace from Rosendale Road & re-routed away from Victoria at Vauxhall to Elephant & the 137A which did the current N137 routing until the late 90's when it was chopped back from Oxford Circus to Clapham Common - not long after becoming the 417. I moved to London in 1996 and I recall the 137A operating Crystal Palace to Sloane Square in the peaks and terminating at Clapham Common off peak. I remember when the 417 was formed, and standardised to Clapham Common, capacity on Queenstown Road became a major issue. In those days only route 137 ran that way, and it could not cope with the loadings. Subsequently it has been supported by the 156/452 and 44 to an extent so this situation has resolved over the years. It's a shame workings have to be so standardised, as the 452 would provide great support to the 77/87 into and out of Vauxhall in the peak periods when this corridor is extremely loaded. I think there are some prefixed routes where the prefix seems inappropriate now - the C routes have no major connection to one another for instance bar 2 of them at Earls Court and 2 at Victoria. The P4/P5 not serving Peckham as already stated. Not sure it's worth the cost/confusion of the re-numbering exercise though. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 9:14:10 GMT
I fondly recall the "ninety B" . Always a good run on a metrobus all the way from Kew to Yeading , or Northolt in peak hours. Plenty of opportunities for a thrashing, especially around Hatton Cross . Busy as well.
The 290 has not been the same since it went single deck either. It was the only double decked route in Stanies in its time, standing out from the array of Westlink LS's.
Happy days
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Post by vjaska on Sept 24, 2013 9:55:47 GMT
Back in the 90's, we only had a few suffix routes left around Brixton & the surrounding area - the 45A became the 345 with an extension to Peckham in 1995, the 2A & 2B became the 2 when the original 2 was renumbered 322, extended to Crystal Palace from Rosendale Road & re-routed away from Victoria at Vauxhall to Elephant & the 137A which did the current N137 routing until the late 90's when it was chopped back from Oxford Circus to Clapham Common - not long after becoming the 417. I know the 68A became the 468 Forgot about that, that was quite a late change, 1999 IIRC which was a couple of years before I started to need the route for school |
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Post by John tuthill on Sept 24, 2013 13:27:50 GMT
Another really interesting example is the 90 family of routes (90/A/B/C), though none lost their suffix for the same reason as the more recent expunging. From Londonbuses.co.uk, 90 - Kew Gardens - Staines (391-490-290) 90A - Kew Gardens - Heathrow (391-490) 90B - Kew Gardens - Yeading (391-490-90) 90C - Hammersmith - Staines (190-490-290 The 290 replaced the 90C Hammersmith - Richmond, subsequently replacing much of the 90 Richmond - Staines. The 190 later on mostly took over the Richmond - Hammersmith portion, and the 290 has ended up as Twickenham - Staines. The 190 Still includes the Richmond Hammersmith portion. The 90B later was renumbered as 90, and in 2007 was split at Feltham to create new route 490 Richmond - Hatton Cross, leaving the (new) 90 as Feltham - Northolt. The 490 later on extended to Heathrow, sharing an identical routing between Hatton + and Richmond as long abandoned 90A. There was a later 90A, but that ran only on Sundays between Yeading and Hammersmith. (I've left some small extensions and reroutings out of this btw!) I seem to remember the 77 & 130's both had 'A,B & C' suffix routes. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2013 13:41:43 GMT
Another really interesting example is the 90 family of routes (90/A/B/C), though none lost their suffix for the same reason as the more recent expunging. From Londonbuses.co.uk, 90 - Kew Gardens - Staines (391-490-290) 90A - Kew Gardens - Heathrow (391-490) 90B - Kew Gardens - Yeading (391-490-90) 90C - Hammersmith - Staines (190-490-290 The 290 replaced the 90C Hammersmith - Richmond, subsequently replacing much of the 90 Richmond - Staines. The 190 later on mostly took over the Richmond - Hammersmith portion, and the 290 has ended up as Twickenham - Staines. The 190 Still includes the Richmond Hammersmith portion. The 90B later was renumbered as 90, and in 2007 was split at Feltham to create new route 490 Richmond - Hatton Cross, leaving the (new) 90 as Feltham - Northolt. The 490 later on extended to Heathrow, sharing an identical routing between Hatton + and Richmond as long abandoned 90A. There was a later 90A, but that ran only on Sundays between Yeading and Hammersmith. (I've left some small extensions and reroutings out of this btw!) I seem to remember the 77 & 130's both had 'A,B & C' suffix routes. The 130C was the epress service. There was also a 194A B and C |
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Post by M1104 on Sept 24, 2013 14:47:04 GMT
Another really interesting example is the 90 family of routes (90/A/B/C), though none lost their suffix for the same reason as the more recent expunging. From Londonbuses.co.uk, 90 - Kew Gardens - Staines (391-490-290) 90A - Kew Gardens - Heathrow (391-490) 90B - Kew Gardens - Yeading (391-490-90) 90C - Hammersmith - Staines (190-490-290 The 290 replaced the 90C Hammersmith - Richmond, subsequently replacing much of the 90 Richmond - Staines. The 190 later on mostly took over the Richmond - Hammersmith portion, and the 290 has ended up as Twickenham - Staines. The 190 Still includes the Richmond Hammersmith portion. The 90B later was renumbered as 90, and in 2007 was split at Feltham to create new route 490 Richmond - Hatton Cross, leaving the (new) 90 as Feltham - Northolt. The 490 later on extended to Heathrow, sharing an identical routing between Hatton + and Richmond as long abandoned 90A. There was a later 90A, but that ran only on Sundays between Yeading and Hammersmith. (I've left some small extensions and reroutings out of this btw!) I seem to remember the 77 & 130's both had 'A,B & C' suffix routes. As a kid I remember so many version of the 77 through Mitcham, Streatham, Hackbridge, Wallington and Raynes Park. One of them is now the 156 renumbered. The 77C in recent years (1990s) was the school bus route from Clapham Junction to Putney Heath, though many SW drivers would often keep the blinds on 49 rather than wind it to the school route then back again. |
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Post by ServerKing on Sept 24, 2013 16:57:40 GMT
I moved to London in 1996 and I recall the 137A operating Crystal Palace to Sloane Square in the peaks and terminating at Clapham Common off peak. I remember when the 417 was formed, and standardised to Clapham Common, capacity on Queenstown Road became a major issue. In those days only route 137 ran that way, and it could not cope with the loadings. Subsequently it has been supported by the 156/452 and 44 to an extent so this situation has resolved over the years. It's a shame workings have to be so standardised, as the 452 would provide great support to the 77/87 into and out of Vauxhall in the peak periods when this corridor is extremely loaded. I think there are some prefixed routes where the prefix seems inappropriate now - the C routes have no major connection to one another for instance bar 2 of them at Earls Court and 2 at Victoria. The P4/P5 not serving Peckham as already stated. Not sure it's worth the cost/confusion of the re-numbering exercise though. Of course the P4 has never gone anywhere near Peckham! It could be 'P' for 'Prefix', not knowing what to call the route...  |
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I think they could renumber some to organise it a little better...
