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Post by l1group on Sept 30, 2013 17:08:12 GMT
Route E3 - could it be a victim of it's own success?
It still ploughs through mostly the same roads (doesn't serve Chiswick Grove Park), and has gone from single decker, via bread vans (they were fun/horrid, delete as appropriate) to double deckers. It ran with bunching very common (of threes or even fives), but then the frequency was decreased, bunching has now reduced to two buses and now these buses can be very full (before, each had a healthy load). It now runs a every 7-8min service, when it used to run a every 6-7min service. The service under Metroline West hasn't improved that much, but enough for some people to think the bus route had a new timetable (to the casual observer). The dilemma is whether it should get back the old Mon-Fri frequency or keep the current Mon-Fri frequency? Or even just introduce peak extras (no need for a full on school route definitely)?
The schools on the route don't help with the buses or the route. It does slow the route down noticeably (I actually go to one of the schools...) and most of them are rowdy, leaving lots of rubbish and noise. So much so, the bus atmosphere is different after Acton Old Town Hall southbound. The list of schools include - Chiswick Academy, Acton High, Gunnersbury (the best of the lot, not that good and I go there... Bias there.), Drayton Manor and Brentside. This does mean there is a lot of overcrowding at peaks.
This isn't helped by my own school (Gunnersbury) not allowing lower school pupils to board E3s at Northfields Station, 1 stop before Julien Road to beat the crowds. This leads to longer dwelling time at Julien Road and thus slowing the route down. That is very annoying for them (I'm in Sixth Form, luckily), and they aren't even able to board buses in front of the school towards Northfields Stn (E2), which makes me ask if the school are even allowed to do this - preventing people from boarding buses?
Am I right that only TfL staff (thus including drivers) and police are the only ones allowed to refuse travel of any passengers? Or can someone correct me?
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Post by lonmark on Sept 30, 2013 17:22:29 GMT
Stranger!!! School have no control allowed outside the school ground and once enter on the public foothway then children allowed to get on buses at bus stop! It is public freedom unless police or TfL stopped them! However it is against thier own human right!!!!
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Post by Mokujin on Sept 30, 2013 17:27:03 GMT
It would just be best if some peak school journeys were introduced on the route to help with overcrowding. Let's just hope that when the tender results come out, we'll find out that Metroline West have retained the route so they can have a good chance of improving the service.
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Post by l1group on Sept 30, 2013 18:11:45 GMT
It would just be best if some peak school journeys were introduced on the route to help with overcrowding. Let's just hope that when the tender results come out, we'll find out that Metroline West have retained the route so they can have a good chance of improving the service. But Metroline West has the same staff as First Centrewest did, so I'd personally want a change if I'm honest from Greenford Garage! If not, let MTW have a proper shot!
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Post by snoggle on Sept 30, 2013 19:51:22 GMT
This is a complete guess as I am not familiar with the E3 or any of the schools quoted. It seems to me, as an oldish git who went to school a long while ago, that schools are now expected to exercise more control over how their pupils arrive at school and leave from school. This may particularly be the case if there are difficult traffic conditions near the school or large volumes of children. In my day schools did not have these responsibilities so how anyone got to school was not a matter for the school provided you got there on time and didn't cause a riot on the way. Parents seem to have a very different view of what schools should do these days and the law has undoubtedly changed in respect of child safety plus we have the "think of the children" panic reaction in society whenever there is a 1 in 25 million chance that a child might hurt themselves. The "instant cotton wool wrapping van" is immediately dispatched to prevent the infinitesimally small risk occurring. Can you tell I'm not a parent? On the other hand there were not quite the same pressures of gangs, drugs and "territory" that seem to exist these days. Obviously I don't know what goes on with teenagers these days and how real those pressures are or whether it is somewhat exaggerated by the media. If they are true then I can understand an expectation of some control extending beyond the school gate. As to whether a school can stop people using a bus stop then if it is in the immediate environs of the school then they may well have agreed with the council, TfL, police and the bus operator to marshall the school's children at particular stops to stop the inevitable situation of a bus filling up at a prior stop and then driving past full at the main stop. You know what kids are like - they'd try to stop the bus and it only takes one slip or trip and they're under the wheels. Aren't schools required to have "travel plans" that are consulted upon and signed off with the relevant authorities? I can see why you as a sixth former may consider your freedom is being infringed but welcome to the real world - freedoms are far more infringed these days then they were when I was a sixth former.
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Post by l1group on Sept 30, 2013 22:24:47 GMT
I can see why you as a sixth former may consider your freedom is being infringed but welcome to the real world - freedoms are far more infringed these days then they were when I was a sixth former. Was, rather. As I'm in sixth form, I can use the offending bus stops and routes, just because I'm in sixth form. It's just the lower school, because there are a few friends (and haters) there that I know, and I just know that many are frustrated when a E3 goes past full etc. My freedoms are still partly intact. A bit. To be honest, I'm not sure if Gunnersbury do have the relevant authorities and planned it all out with TfL, as E2/E3 drivers all allow them no matter what anyway! Yet the teachers "patrol" Northfields area just so people don't get on the early stop/stop at school northbound. My weird (yet notable) solution for the E3 - jog two bus stops down from Julien Road if the E3 is in 10min from Northfields. Thus the teachers can't do anything about it as you are already on the bus, and, well...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2013 22:55:10 GMT
Concerning from the main school point of view, it's particularly interesting that the senior staff actually recommend us to crowd round a bus stop (and line up) at one when there are two bus stops to spread the load of about 250-400 students going on one route.
School kids tend to mark "territories" by just hanging around an area. My local area seems to have a load of kids from Phoenix High school, the nearest school there. Similarly, there is a large presence of Acton High/Twyford CofE Students at Acton and vice versa. It's intimidating when you explore (or go to a friend's house) but if you know the area, you're fine.
Most school kids are surprisingly well behaved, with most just sitting there, listening to music or casual chatting etc. There are some exceptions, with it usually being the immature kids in any year group acting anti-socially, being in big huddles and shouting and eating "food" but there are a sizeable amounts of anti-social "thingys" in any year group, some even in my class. Generally, though, in small groups or in the mornings, we don't do much. We just take up loads of space on the top deck.
This problem doesn't just apply to our school. Pretty much every school has this at some levels. Twyford CofE, IMO, has a small amount of antisocial kids whereas Acton High is full of them. It doesn't matter what gender, age or... something, you are, they'll be some antisocial kids in any school.
I'm surprised that with that amount of people from a variety of schools that they don't introduce a school route along the E3, especially at the section between West Ealing and Acton. There are still a few numbers in the 6xx range, why not?
Also, just a tip: Don't go to the top deck of any bus after 3:30pm
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Post by l1group on Sept 30, 2013 23:18:40 GMT
I'm surprised that with that amount of people from a variety of schools that they don't introduce a school route along the E3, especially at the section between West Ealing and Acton. There are still a few numbers in the 6xx range, why not? Also, just a tip: Don't go to the top deck of any bus after 3:30pm (no need for a full on school route definitely) Reason - many schools spread out so the school route is in itself E3! The thing I'd say is to get peak extras instead, to be honest! The tip - if you aren't a school kid, or aren't on the 626 (pleasant past Barnet Church, for a school route, weirdly!) Most school kids are surprisingly well behaved, with most just sitting there, listening to music or casual chatting etc. There are some exceptions, with it usually being the immature kids in any year group acting anti-socially, being in big huddles and shouting and eating "food" but there are a sizeable amounts of anti-social "thingys" in any year group, some even in my class. Generally, though, in small groups or in the mornings, we don't do much. True - there are many good people. But the acts of the good aren't noticed - the immature people - the amount of them define a school, sometimes... The immature people in any year. I see, and there are just more in certain schools of these types of people than others. And more in some year groups than others. The fact that school leaves at the same time, getting 400-ish people home at once can take a strain onto any system. That's why rush hours themselves are always busy - more people on the same system at one time leading to overcrowding. The mornings are always fine as the arrivals are spread out (in the case of a school, that is), but they do crowd a tad more closer to the school, usually. Concerning from the main school point of view, it's particularly interesting that the senior staff actually recommend us to crowd round a bus stop (and line up) at one when there are two bus stops to spread the load of about 250-400 students going on one route. This leads to longer dwelling time at Julien Road and thus slowing the route down. There are many more than two. Just walk further back and it's not very far to the one before Northfields Stn. Senior staff can't do anything about that, as they see you ALREADY on the bus... Forcing all onto one stop - It's annoying for the general public (ironically), people from the sixth form who are relaxing and have a seat (annoyed that the younger ones pile on at one stop!) and as dwell time increases, the route itself suffers from Gunnersbury's short sightedness. Simples *squeaks*
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Post by Hassaan on Sept 30, 2013 23:25:36 GMT
There was a time (2010-2011) where at my school (Heston) there were police officers (PCSO ones most likely I think) who would supervise the kids getting on the buses, to ensure they didn't get on from the back (which doesn't happen often anyway) and got on in single file and let other passengers get on first. This only happened at one bus stop, "St Leonard's Church" (towards Heathrow/Southall only, this was also the busier direction in the afternoon and the 111 is more used). There are also two stops in each direction nearest to the school, the other being "Hogarth Gardens" which is lightly used outside those times. I still remember back in 2007 when a DPS Dart turned up on the 120 after school luckily there was enough space for everyone to get on.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 1, 2013 0:41:10 GMT
There was a time (2010-2011) where at my school (Heston) there were police officers (PCSO ones most likely I think) who would supervise the kids getting on the buses, to ensure they didn't get on from the back (which doesn't happen often anyway) and got on in single file and let other passengers get on first. This only happened at one bus stop, "St Leonard's Church" (towards Heathrow/Southall only, this was also the busier direction in the afternoon and the 111 is more used). There are also two stops in each direction nearest to the school, the other being "Hogarth Gardens" which is lightly used outside those times. I still remember back in 2007 when a DPS Dart turned up on the 120 after school luckily there was enough space for everyone to get on. We had that at my old school, St. Joseph's College in Upper Norwood, except it was our headmaster who supervised us getting on rather than police officers. Other passengers went first and then we were allowed to board afterwards. The next stop down was where the chicken shop was (and still is) where quite a few kids went - that's where the trouble would start!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2013 10:59:51 GMT
I know in Bromley there are often issues with rowdy behaviour on the 654 & 664.
Regarding the E3 , would it not make sense for some extras to start the peak run at the schools concerned rather than travelling light to one end of the route ?
That is if the route has spread over buses.
This is used on many other routes, 57,75 to name two examples ..
The tender is of course open to London United who could operate the route from V ( as it once was partially in the 80's) or Tower Transit possibly.... But neither alternatives would offer a guarantee of a better service.
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Post by l1group on Oct 2, 2013 17:54:03 GMT
There is an ironic thing with the select bus stop "control" - on the other side (western) of my school is Boston Manor Road. There isn't any control like how Northfields is. Most of the people board at the closest stop (The Ride), but some walk to the two bus stops behind due to the peak flow pm being northbound on that corridor. There is no teacher intervention there, and all works fine on that corridor, even if E8 and 195 do generally need double deckers anyway!
Weirdly though, pupils aren't allowed to interchange at or go to "Brentford High Street" itself either. My way of circumnavigating the "ban" - change at Brent Lea/Commerce Road - a load quieter!
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Post by eggmiester on Oct 3, 2013 11:35:13 GMT
As the pupils are no doubt in school uniform then they are representative of the school at all times that the uniform is worn.
Thing is I when complaints are made about behaviour etc it's not the individuals that get identified first, normally it's the school, because of the uniform they wear is easily distinguishable.
Teacher's ushering or 'crowd controlling' is a recent concept, usually brought in due to previous incidents or complaints. Normally it would also be a request from the police if they have had to attend in the past with officers or pcso's to man the crowds, which in areas is considered a drain on resources. Bus companies can also insist on someone supervising boarding.
I'll give one example, I work the school bus rota at BX and drive the 669 (in fact I'll be doing one of the afternoon 669's later today) and in the afternoon we pick up inside the grounds of Cleeve Park school on Sidcup, this is mainly because there's no turning facility to turn a bus around there but also to assist with crown control as well. We park the buses up and board passengers in the southern playground, but even though we are on school grounds, boarding is still always supaervised by teachers and occasionally pcso's who will travel on the buses. After we leave the school there is a stop outside which we don't serve (the B14 does), this stop is not even on the ibus, our next stop is about half a mile away.....
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Post by Steve09 on Oct 3, 2013 14:35:20 GMT
As the pupils are no doubt in school uniform then they are representative of the school at all times that the uniform is worn. Thing is I when complaints are made about behaviour etc it's not the individuals that get identified first, normally it's the school, because of the uniform they wear is easily distinguishable. Teacher's ushering or 'crowd controlling' is a recent concept, usually brought in due to previous incidents or complaints. Normally it would also be a request from the police if they have had to attend in the past with officers or pcso's to man the crowds, which in areas is considered a drain on resources. Bus companies can also insist on someone supervising boarding. I'll give one example, I work the school bus rota at BX and drive the 669 (in fact I'll be doing one of the afternoon 669's later today) and in the afternoon we pick up inside the grounds of Cleeve Park school on Sidcup, this is mainly because there's no turning facility to turn a bus around there but also to assist with crown control as well. We park the buses up and board passengers in the southern playground, but even though we are on school grounds, boarding is still always supaervised by teachers and occasionally pcso's who will travel on the buses. After we leave the school there is a stop outside which we don't serve (the B14 does), this stop is not even on the ibus, our next stop is about half a mile away..... Wow, I remember the days when I went to Cleeve Park, and us schoolkids would be able to board the 669's in the school playground without any intervention from teachers (or PCSOs for that matter) I have a few memeories of the 269 getting rammed down at Faraday Avenue as that was generally the first choice route to Sidcup or Bexleyheath (double deck, and more frequent) then the B14 and the drivers would reguarly turn the engine off etc as people would board through the back doors and generally be a nuisance. Not forgetting the 401 which has always been one of the busiest routes at Bexleyheath, as its the most direct route to Belvedere and Thamesmead, with there being some drama of some sort almost every day when I used to catch it home from school in the period 2006-2010. I remember before the PCSOs helped with the boardings on the 401 at Bexleyheath, as soon as the bus turned up, schoolkids would rush on through either doors, without a single consideration for any elderly or other passengers and the bus would be unable to move due to severe overcrowding on both decks and people jammed up to the windscreen. Today the situation is much better, as I have frequently discovered, as two queues are formed, one for adults and one for schoolkids, with the schoolkids only allowed on in a controlled manner once all the older passengers are on.
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Oct 3, 2013 17:25:08 GMT
Sydenham School appears to have staggered leaving times and even got TfL to move the 122 bus stop slightly up the road to segregate the pupils travelling towards Lewisham away from those using the 176 and 197 towards Dulwich. Teachers or support staff supervise the boarding on each bus.
Route 122 also has an afternoon school service which starts from the school which has taken some pressure off the normal 122's from Crystal Palace.
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